Navicular, Barefeet and Laminitis

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Any/all comments and advice welcome.
I have an 18yo WB mare (bought as 3yo) who due to being diagnosed with navicular approx 8 years ago has been worked periodically, she generally gets sore in the spring due to hard ground in the field but otherwise hasn't shown any signs of degeneration. Over the years she's had all assortments of remedial shoeing, including a spell barefoot during which she was sound in the school and wore boots for hacking, I really don't know why I went back to shoes(after approx 6months) as I had done a fair bit of research into the pros and cons of taking her shoes off, but I did and in the last two years shes just been shod with more heel support and silicone pumped onto her sole in the summer. In the last year she has become increasingly difficult to shoe, reacting quite dramatically which led me to believe shoes were no longer an option so her farrier removed them at the start of August 12 , my mare was comfortable in the field but 'footy' on gravel as I expected, then she had a trim from an EP on the 26/08(nothing radical), the following day she did not want to go back to her field, I thought this was down to standing in for the night but she has got continually worse and this week the vet confirmed laminitis as a result of her sore feet. I did not see this coming and wonder if anyone has had a similar experience, my mare is generally full of beans and I do not like her being stabled, would it be feasible once she's comfortable to put her out and give her feet time to heal? She is not a particularly greedy or overweight horse and has always has ad lib haylage which I do not want to change as she has a history of impacted colic, another worry as she ended up in the vet school twice with a possible surgical colic whilst on boxrest for a wound. The summer as everyone knows has been shocking with my horses field being poor and for the first time ever in the summer dropped quite a bit of weight I wonder if the state of the field contributed? Sorry for the lifestory but more info the better :)
 
Wishlist said:
Any/all comments and advice welcome.
I have an 18yo WB mare (bought as 3yo) who due to being diagnosed with navicular approx 8 years ago has been worked periodically, she generally gets sore in the spring due to hard ground in the field but otherwise hasn't shown any signs of degeneration. Over the years she's had all assortments of remedial shoeing, including a spell barefoot during which she was sound in the school and wore boots for hacking, I really don't know why I went back to shoes(after approx 6months) as I had done a fair bit of research into the pros and cons of taking her shoes off, but I did and in the last two years shes just been shod with more heel support and silicone pumped onto her sole in the summer. In the last year she has become increasingly difficult to shoe, reacting quite dramatically which led me to believe shoes were no longer an option so her farrier removed them at the start of August 12 , my mare was comfortable in the field but 'footy' on gravel as I expected, then she had a trim from an EP on the 26/08(nothing radical), the following day she did not want to go back to her field, I thought this was down to standing in for the night but she has got continually worse and this week the vet confirmed laminitis as a result of her sore feet. I did not see this coming and wonder if anyone has had a similar experience, my mare is generally full of beans and I do not like her being stabled, would it be feasible once she's comfortable to put her out and give her feet time to heal? She is not a particularly greedy or overweight horse and has always has ad lib haylage which I do not want to change as she has a history of impacted colic, another worry as she ended up in the vet school twice with a possible surgical colic whilst on boxrest for a wound. The summer as everyone knows has been shocking with my horses field being poor and for the first time ever in the summer dropped quite a bit of weight I wonder if the state of the field contributed? Sorry for the lifestory but more info the better :)
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Has the vet done xrays?

What is she getting in a bucket?

Do you have any pics of her hooves?

Turnout is something to discuss with your vet at this stage :)
 
Sorry don't know your status so you may do this already but horses with these issues sore or otherwise fare much better when in if the bed is a deep shavings one - right to the door. Paper and straw don't cushion the feet in quite the same way and rubber matting on its own - even with a bed at the back tends to lead to the sort of problem you describe.

To give rapid relief I find a 'bucket' style boot, such as Cavallo, G1, G2, Boas etc, maybe a tad on the large side to accomodate a thick pad (I like the 4lb white pad from www.equine podiatrysupplies.co.uk)

I've had many a dog lame lami walk away very comfortably when kitted out like this and a couple tank off when in hand. (ok you might not want this bit but it illustrates the point).

Provided the boot is fitted well and used sensibly they are a brilliant option.

Good luck in getting your horse sound again.

By the way I invariably find 'nav' horses also have lami or thrush or both.
 
Oberon said:
Has the vet done xrays?

What is she getting in a bucket?

Do you have any pics of her hooves?

Turnout is something to discuss with your vet at this stage :)
Click to expand...

Hi Oberon she gets a high fibre diet of readigrass and high fibre nuts, the vet can't see any damage from the outside of her feet and may x-ray at a later stage if she doesn't improve which she thinks may be take a month in the stable :(
 
LucyPriory said:
Sorry don't know your status so you may do this already but horses with these issues sore or otherwise fare much better when in if the bed is a deep shavings one - right to the door. Paper and straw don't cushion the feet in quite the same way and rubber matting on its own - even with a bed at the back tends to lead to the sort of problem you describe.

To give rapid relief I find a 'bucket' style boot, such as Cavallo, G1, G2, Boas etc, maybe a tad on the large side to accomodate a thick pad (I like the 4lb white pad from www.equine podiatrysupplies.co.uk)

I've had many a dog lame lami walk away very comfortably when kitted out like this and a couple tank off when in hand. (ok you might not want this bit but it illustrates the point).

Provided the boot is fitted well and used sensibly they are a brilliant option.

Good luck in getting your horse sound again.

By the way I invariably find 'nav' horses also have lami or thrush or both.
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Hi LucyPriory she is on a good deep shavings bed and I'll check out the boots and pads, I previously used boa boots but think only have 1 left which is not much good when all 4 feet are sore, I'll get some pictures up and be interested to hear opinions on them
 
Wishlist said:
Hi Oberon she gets a high fibre diet of readigrass and high fibre nuts, the vet can't see any damage from the outside of her feet and may x-ray at a later stage if she doesn't improve which she thinks may be take a month in the stable :(
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Read high fibre and high sugar diet of Readigrass and high fibre nuts :D

Readigrass is flash dried grass. We've tried and failed in the past to get a full analysis from them - but considering how it is produced....I would figure the sugar level will be high.

I have used Readigrass in the past for my old boy - but I certainly wouldn't consider it during the spring/summer and especially not for a metabolically challenged horse.

The high fibre nuts may well be molassed - more sugar :).

You need to add this to the estimated levels in the grass and hayalge she gets too.....so it's likely she is getting more sugar than she needs :).
 
pines of rome said:
Brilliant! I thought her hubby had hidden her laptop, she must have sneaked out and found it! lol
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sedalin.jpg
 
Oberon said:
Lucy Priory - aren't you supposed to be on box rest? :mad::mad::mad::D
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Yes but being horizontal for days in a row is mind blowingly dull. I feel so sorry for horses on box rest - I know I would be unable to trade places.

OH is a lovely man, but still a man. Not very good at hiding kit. I had a spare semi dead laptop in my knicker drawer (don't ask) which as I used to build marine and balloon navigational equipment in my yoof I was able to restart :-)

By the way - if you want to meet top drawer totty in the middle of the night faint in the bathroom and get stuck. The totty is well recommended but not the getting stuck (and cold) bit.
 
LucyPriory said:
Yes but being horizontal for days in a row is mind blowingly dull. I feel so sorry for horses on box rest - I know I would be unable to trade places.

OH is a lovely man, but still a man. Not very good at hiding kit. I had a spare semi dead laptop in my knicker drawer (don't ask) which as I used to build marine and balloon navigational equipment in my yoof I was able to restart :-)

By the way - if you want to meet top drawer totty in the middle of the night faint in the bathroom and get stuck. The totty is well recommended but not the getting stuck (and cold) bit.
Click to expand...

Paramedics don't count as totty
snooty.gif
.
 
Anyway back to the OP - I have found the same as Oberon 'high fibre' nuts are often glued together with molasses or cane syrup.

And if a 'chop' is required I tend to go for a timothy hay or local proper meadow hay chop than bagged grass.

I am really bugged by paying extra for something I work so hard to avoid.........
 
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OP, I read this...

who due to being diagnosed with navicular approx 8 years ago has been worked periodically, she generally gets sore in the spring due to hard ground in the field but otherwise hasn't shown any signs of degeneration.
Click to expand...

and wondered if in fact the spring discomfort was due to episodes of laminitis. And I also read that she'd dropped weight this year... have you ever had her checked for Cushings? Horses with Cushings can look ribby - but are often also a bit potbellied, and it would fit with the typical time of year for a Cushings horse to come down with laminitis (spring and autumn - this is due to the way horses' bodies produce hormones to respond to changes in length of day/night).

I am sure the Barefoot Taliban will give you more detail (LucyPriory on box rest is a shame for her but great for anyone needing online expert advice ;) Hope you feel better soon, Lucy, I'm sure there will be enough on here to keep you entertained so you don't develop any nasty stereotypies :)).
 
Brightbay said:
OP, I read this...



and wondered if in fact the spring discomfort was due to episodes of laminitis. And I also read that she'd dropped weight this year... have you ever had her checked for Cushings? Horses with Cushings can look ribby - but are often also a bit potbellied, and it would fit with the typical time of year for a Cushings horse to come down with laminitis (spring and autumn - this is due to the way horses' bodies produce hormones to respond to changes in length of day/night).

I am sure the Barefoot Taliban will give you more detail (LucyPriory on box rest is a shame for her but great for anyone needing online expert advice ;) Hope you feel better soon, Lucy, I'm sure there will be enough on here to keep you entertained so you don't develop any nasty stereotypies :)).
Click to expand...

Funny you should suggest that yes she is ribby but not underweight, should get blood results back tommorrow, I have been so focussed on navicular for years that it gets the blame for everything!!!
 
LucyPriory said:
Anyway back to the OP - I have found the same as Oberon 'high fibre' nuts are often glued together with molasses or cane syrup.

And if a 'chop' is required I tend to go for a timothy hay or local proper meadow hay chop than bagged grass.

I am really bugged by paying extra for something I work so hard to avoid.........
Click to expand...
Thanks for the advice everybody been out and bought some healthy hooves(the feed)not actual hooves unfortunately, so can leave the nuts out, our routine has been the same forever don't like to change stuff unnecessarily but this has been a wake up call. Also have checked out the boots on the EP supplies site the old macs for the front and cavallo sports behind, do these have room for the pad you recommended?
 
Wishlist said:
Thanks for the advice everybody been out and bought some healthy hooves(the feed)not actual hooves unfortunately, so can leave the nuts out, our routine has been the same forever don't like to change stuff unnecessarily but this has been a wake up call. Also have checked out the boots on the EP supplies site the old macs for the front and cavallo sports behind, do these have room for the pad you recommended?
Click to expand...

so long as they not fitted too tight. discuss the measurements with Justine from the website - she is very helpful.

read small print on healthy hooves
 
I was also going to suggest PPID when I read "I did not see this coming" at this time of year. The ACTH which is measured for the Cushings test, rises in the autumn and laminitis strikes without warning to horses/ponies that are not your "typical" looking lami risks.
I would like to bet it will be a positive result, which is not the best news but it does mean you can treat the cause of the lami and hopefully get it under control and you will get your old horse back on track.
 
Wishlist said:
this week the vet confirmed laminitis as a result of her sore feet. QUOTE]

Your mare doesn't have laminitis as a result of her sore feet. She has sore feet as a result of laminitis ;)

My big lad had a mild bout this spring after just 48 hours on super lush grass. Went really footsore, was groaning as he walked, heavy breathing, bleary eyed (as if not on this planet) and preferred to stand on his soft bed rather than even the rubber matting at the front of his stable. I only had to keep him off the grass for 48 hours afterwards but then I gave him very restricted turnout.

In your position I would keep her in until she is visibly comfortable (which may only be a matter of days) - give her some sedalin if neccesary. then turn her out on a very bare patch of grass with soaked hay if required.

I would personally be quite careful with healthy hooves - it contains alfa-alfa which most barefooters steer clear of. You might be ok with it though. Alan and Page fast fibre is a popular choice and I would highly reccomend you add a magnesium supplement to her diet as this will help her metabolise the grass sugars. If you want to look at treating her metabolic issues and increasing her hoof health it would be worth you looking in more depth at barefoot diets. Since I have got my boy's diet cracked, his feet have improved dramatically.

Good luck!
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muff747 said:
I was also going to suggest PPID when I read "I did not see this coming" at this time of year. The ACTH which is measured for the Cushings test, rises in the autumn and laminitis strikes without warning to horses/ponies that are not your "typical" looking lami risks.
I would like to bet it will be a positive result, which is not the best news but it does mean you can treat the cause of the lami and hopefully get it under control and you will get your old horse back on track.
Click to expand...

Am very happy and relieved to report that she is negative for cushings :D, am doing my homework researching barefoot diets, there's a lot to learn.
 
CBFan said:
Wishlist said:
this week the vet confirmed laminitis as a result of her sore feet. QUOTE]

Your mare doesn't have laminitis as a result of her sore feet. She has sore feet as a result of laminitis ;)

My big lad had a mild bout this spring after just 48 hours on super lush grass. Went really footsore, was groaning as he walked, heavy breathing, bleary eyed (as if not on this planet) and preferred to stand on his soft bed rather than even the rubber matting at the front of his stable. I only had to keep him off the grass for 48 hours afterwards but then I gave him very restricted turnout.

In your position I would keep her in until she is visibly comfortable (which may only be a matter of days) - give her some sedalin if neccesary. then turn her out on a very bare patch of grass with soaked hay if required.

I would personally be quite careful with healthy hooves - it contains alfa-alfa which most barefooters steer clear of. You might be ok with it though. Alan and Page fast fibre is a popular choice and I would highly reccomend you add a magnesium supplement to her diet as this will help her metabolise the grass sugars. If you want to look at treating her metabolic issues and increasing her hoof health it would be worth you looking in more depth at barefoot diets. Since I have got my boy's diet cracked, his feet have improved dramatically.

Good luck!
Click to expand...
It's only been a few days and she's rebelling about the boxrest, which is a good sign I s'pose. I am researching the barefoot diet and have ordered micronised linseed, mag ox, brewers yeast and seaweed, am off to track down some fast fibre(not sure about stockists tho) or kwik beet. I can't believe these feeds directed at laminitics ie healthy hooves and d&h high fibre cubes have molasses and alfalfa pellets in them and there's insufficient info on the label, clearly the diet industry for horses is no different to the human one!!!! Mini rant over thanks for your advice :)
Click to expand...
 
As far as navicular goes, my view is it is always caused by shoeing.

The most important part of the hoof I think is the digital cushion which should be tough and fiberous. In shod horses it's not, so doesn't function as it should and provide protection or support required.

Obviously a barefoot horse will show symptoms of inflamation (laminitis) within the hoof capsule far sooner than a shod horse. LGL can be present in shod horses for long periods without showing, until it gets very severe.

The advice you have been given regarding diet is spot on.
 
Equimins do a supplement for lami i.e. LAMINATOR, I tried this on my barefoot 15.00 boy this spring [at half recommended rate, as a preventative] and found that his hooves grew better, more concavity. It contains magnesium in various forms, and some herbs plus copper, zinc and selenium. With minerals it is all about balance and I was happier using a balanced product rather than straight magnesium.
http://www.equimins-online.com/all-products/75-equimins-laminator-supplement-powder.html
The Laminator is used as a supplement to his daily base feed which is:
500gms Fast Fibre
50gms micronised linseed meal
Handful of Dengie non molassed lo alfa chaff
10gms magnesium calmer [Feedmark]
tsp Salt
He gets two such feeds in winter, but I include non molassed sb pulp for variety as FF is very bland.
Seaweed used to be recommended for barefooters, but now it is thought not to be balanced for UK forage.
I have to say I used to feed branded Hi Fibre feeds, but horse is now in better condition, better skin, and hooves, and better behaved, now I have control over his intake.
 
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Pale Rider said:
As far as navicular goes, my view is it is always caused by shoeing.

The most important part of the hoof I think is the digital cushion which should be tough and fiberous. In shod horses it's not, so doesn't function as it should and provide protection or support required.

Obviously a barefoot horse will show symptoms of inflamation (laminitis) within the hoof capsule far sooner than a shod horse. LGL can be present in shod horses for long periods without showing, until it gets very severe.

The advice you have been given regarding diet is spot on.
Click to expand...

Thanks Pale rider I believe barefoot is the way to go, just need to look forward and make informed decisions now :)
 
Miss L Toe said:
Equimins do a supplement for lami i.e. LAMINATOR, I tried this on my barefoot 15.00 boy this spring [at half recommended rate, as a preventative] and found that his hooves grew better, more concavity. It contains magnesium in various forms, and some herbs plus copper, zinc and selenium. With minerals it is all about balance and I was happier using a balanced product rather than straight magnesium.
http://www.equimins-online.com/all-products/75-equimins-laminator-supplement-powder.html
The Laminator is used as a supplement to his daily base feed which is:
500gms Fast Fibre
50gms micronised linseed meal
Handful of Dengie non molassed lo alfa chaff
10gms magnesium calmer [Feedmark]
tsp Salt
He gets two such feeds in winter, but I include non molassed sb pulp for variety as FF is very bland.
Seaweed used to be recommended for barefooters, but now it is thought not to be balanced for UK forage.
I have to say I used to feed branded Hi Fibre feeds, but horse is now in better condition, better skin, and hooves, and better behaved, now I have control over his intake.
Click to expand...

Thanks, I thought I was feeding her well by keeping it as natural as possible, staying away from cereals but she has always been very sharp so I wonder if she will be more chilled out once I get her diet sorted. I bought the supplements as straights just from a financial point of view :)
 
Wishlist said:
CBFan said:
It's only been a few days and she's rebelling about the boxrest, which is a good sign I s'pose. I am researching the barefoot diet and have ordered micronised linseed, mag ox, brewers yeast and seaweed, am off to track down some fast fibre(not sure about stockists tho) or kwik beet. I can't believe these feeds directed at laminitics ie healthy hooves and d&h high fibre cubes have molasses and alfalfa pellets in them and there's insufficient info on the label, clearly the diet industry for horses is no different to the human one!!!! Mini rant over thanks for your advice :)
Click to expand...

Hehe! that is a god sign :)

I find it very scary the lack of info on feed bags regading the ACTUAL ingredients of the contents....

I'm glad you've researched the barefoot diet - I have had great results from all the items youve listed above but be careful re the seaweed - you can OD on iodine and the actual amount often required by a horse is often well below the recomended daily dose stated on the packet - my boy only needs two level measures per MONTH based on our last forage analysis!! Eye opening stuff!
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