navicular barefoot v shod

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w1bbler

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OK, horse has just been diagnosed, by xrays, with navicular. I've read lots of very convincing arguments on here for a barefoot rehab. My vet is talking about remedial shoeing. My question is, is there any one on here that's been successful with remedial shoeing, or am I going to need to go against vets advise.
She is only very mildly lame, fine in straight line, not striding out downhill & lame in tight circles.
She has a barefoot friendly diet already _ speedybeet, pro balance & linseed.
Rockley is out of the question, horse not insured even if I could persuade my vet.
 
w1bbler said:
OK, horse has just been diagnosed, by xrays, with navicular. I've read lots of very convincing arguments on here for a barefoot rehab. My vet is talking about remedial shoeing. My question is, is there any one on here that's been successful with remedial shoeing, or am I going to need to go against vets advise.
She is only very mildly lame, fine in straight line, not striding out downhill & lame in tight circles.
She has a barefoot friendly diet already _ speedybeet, pro balance & linseed.
Rockley is out of the question, horse not insured even if I could persuade my vet.
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We have one old boy here who is shod with Navicular, farrier tried normal shoes but he went footy so they went back to natural balance and he seems fine most days. Owner will not go BF so she keeps the natural balance shoes which suits him to a *T*

I would tend to get a few opinions from vet and a remedial farrier or two as they can see the horse - his actions- and his history his type - size for themselves where as we cannot. Also they know the horse we do not, you will find a lot of Pro BF which may help some horses but not necessarily your horse, but remember no one here can actually see the horse so can only advice based on hearsay.
 
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I can only answer form my own experience, I tried doing as my vet suggested and we went with remedial shoeing, started off well and I thought I had done the right thing, but after six months my boy became more and more uncomfortable every time he was shod and was pointing his feet a lot! I then decided that he was only going to get worse, so had the shoes off, he was very sore to start with and had to wear boots for turnout for several weeks!
But two and half years later he is much happier, not 100%, but I did not really expect that, he was a pretty bad case, I have a great EP who looks after his feet for me and I use boots most of the time for hacking.
My vet is very impressed how good his awful feet look now and does not mention shoeing anymore!!!
 
Yes, I went with the traditional shoeing for 18 months and horse was very unhappy. Lameness reoccurred periodically and feet were growing longer on the lateral side, I think.
Finally, against vet's advice, I had the shoes off, thinking the horse could just retire. Within 24 hours of having the shoes off, she was trotting across gravel. She'd worn shoes all her working life and she adapted without looking back. She came back into work and remained sound, except for when we pushed her too far by jumping, but she's sound again now and won't risk jumping again.
Probably not right for everyone, but when the shoeing didn't work, we had very little to loose. Just wish I'd listened to the horse and done it sooner.
 
You can't diagnose navicular with x rays. All they show is the state of the bone, which has practically no correlation with lameness in the foot. Your vet should know this!
 
Well if you see changes to navicular bone on X-ray and follow it up with a nerve block it's safe to assume that's what you dealing with.
OP it would be BF for me all the way if it where my horse I would not even consider remedial farriery .
you would not need your vets permission to send your horse to Rockley if it was affordable, it's likely not to be greatly more expensive than conventional treatments .
 
Goldenstar said:
Well if you see changes to navicular bone on X-ray and follow it up with a nerve block it's safe to assume that's what you dealing with.
OP it would be BF for me all the way if it where my horse I would not even consider remedial farriery .
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It's safe to assume that taking off the shoes is the best treatment, but the vast majority of foot lameness is caused by ligament and/or tendon damage, irrespective of what xrays of the navicular bone look like. It's been known for decades that there is little correlation between how lame a horse is with what xrays of the navicular bone look like. All the vet in this case knows is that the horse has palmar/caudal hoof lameness. He doesn't know why.
 
joycec said:
It's safe to assume that taking off the shoes is the best treatment, but the vast majority of foot lameness is caused by ligament and/or tendon damage, irrespective of what xrays of the navicular bone look like. It's been known for decades that there is little correlation between how lame a horse is with what xrays of the navicular bone look like. All the vet in this case knows is that the horse has palmar/caudal hoof lameness. He doesn't know why.
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In fairness, whilst I agree with the above, if you have isolated with nerve blocks then an MRI tends not to change the treatment in most cases. Exceptions may be where the tendon is very abraded and they decide to arthroscopy.
 
Thanks for all the replies, I've got some reading to do now, & then lots of q's for my vet.
Diagnosis was nerve blocking to foot & then x rays. Also showed she is bi-laterally lame, but worse on right foot
Front shoes are off atm anyway cos of the xrays, might start by seeing how she copes
She has got quite flat feet & I'm very tempted to see what nature can do for us.
 
Goldenstar said:
Well if you see changes to navicular bone on X-ray and follow it up with a nerve block it's safe to assume that's what you dealing with.
OP it would be BF for me all the way if it where my horse I would not even consider remedial farriery .
you would not need your vets permission to send your horse to Rockley if it was affordable, it's likely not to be greatly more expensive than conventional treatments .
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I think you need the vet to refer them to rockley?

Either way, the only route I would consider in your situation would be barefoot. I have only ever seen remidial farriery work short term which is such a shame that it's the only thing vets will suggest!
 
xgemmax said:
I think you need the vet to refer them to rockley?

Either way, the only route I would consider in your situation would be barefoot. I have only ever seen remidial farriery work short term which is such a shame that it's the only thing vets will suggest!
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You do not need your vet to refer to Rockley if you are not claiming on insurance. Nothing that is done there requires the permission of a vet.
 
It would be interesting to know if she would take a horse with the opposition of its own vet. Provided there is no insurance claim involved, and the horse was transferred into the care of her own vet once it was there, I can't see any reason why she wouldn't take it. On the other hand, in most parts of the country it would now be pretty easy to find a vet to give the horse a referral. One of my friends had to do this, because hers was insured and her own vet wouldn't do it. The horse came sound rapidly, of course :), having had a very poor prognosis from a university hospital.
 
joycec said:
It would be interesting to know if she would take a horse with the opposition of its own vet. Provided there is no insurance claim involved, and the horse was transferred into the care of her own vet once it was there, I can't see any reason why she wouldn't take it. On the other hand, in most parts of the country it would now be pretty easy to find a vet to give the horse a referral. One of my friends had to do this, because hers was insured and her own vet wouldn't do it. The horse came sound rapidly, of course :), having had a very poor prognosis from a university hospital.
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Where that has happened as you say the owner has got another vet locally to refer. Even if it's not a insurance claim and most including my own horse are not as by the time they find Rockley they have used up insurance money or run out of time; to go ahead when you do not have the consent of the vet could potentially cause all sorts of problems,
 
I've seen many do fine with remedial showing. I've seen some sorted by the chiropractor, these horses had withers out of alignment. The majority of horses will show so e signs of navicular on X rays and many with absolutely no lameness.

My barefoot 6yr old, sold a year ago has just been diagnosed with Sidebone, she wore shoes for three weeks over a year ago.

Whether barefoot will work is something you can try. I'm very sceptical after seeing the skeleton pelvis of a horse that the barefoot trimmer said she could fix. The hip joint must have been fractured at some time and had fused out of alignment, it was a mess!

To the OP that has a not sound horse retired in the paddock, how do you deal with the fact that your horse is lame because it is in pain. This is so wrong, let the horse go and be comfortable. I had to do so for my much loved TB with Navicular, we owe it to them. If anti inflammatory drugs are not working then PTS.
 
Tnavas - the reason why I would favour a barefoot approach is having seen research for success rates for a traditional approach involving remedial farriery and drugs for navicular spectrum issues. This ranges from about 10% to 25% depending on the structures involved. I would describe those sort of rates as 'many'.

I can't post a link atm as on my mobile but will happily do so when I get home later tonight.
 
Tnavas said:
I've seen many do fine with remedial showing. I've seen some sorted by the chiropractor, these horses had withers out of alignment. The majority of horses will show so e signs of navicular on X rays and many with absolutely no lameness.

My barefoot 6yr old, sold a year ago has just been diagnosed with Sidebone, she wore shoes for three weeks over a year ago.

Whether barefoot will work is something you can try. I'm very sceptical after seeing the skeleton pelvis of a horse that the barefoot trimmer said she could fix. The hip joint must have been fractured at some time and had fused out of alignment, it was a mess!

To the OP that has a not sound horse retired in the paddock, how do you deal with the fact that your horse is lame because it is in pain. This is so wrong, let the horse go and be comfortable. I had to do so for my much loved TB with Navicular, we owe it to them. If anti inflammatory drugs are not working then PTS.
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I hear you about other things going on in the body, I see that with my saddle fitting, but the other way around in that so often poor front feet are stopping the topline development. However, I disagree that horses are doing "fine" with remedial shoeing - for a shortish period of time then yes, but I don't think I'd say I've ever heard of a long term return to soundness and a decent level of activity such as you can see from barefoot rehab.

And where did the OP, or anyone else, say that they have a horse in pain in the paddock? I skimmed back through and don't think anyone has, yes, to go barefoot can mean a short period of discomfort but it's usually easy to keep the horse comfortable. And to regain hoof function sometimes IS worth a short period of discomfort for the horse in my opinion.
 
sbloom said:
I hear you about other things going on in the body, I see that with my saddle fitting, but the other way around in that so often poor front feet are stopping the topline development. However, I disagree that horses are doing "fine" with remedial shoeing - for a shortish period of time then yes, but I don't think I'd say I've ever heard of a long term return to soundness and a decent level of activity such as you can see from barefoot rehab.

And where did the OP, or anyone else, say that they have a horse in pain in the paddock? I skimmed back through and don't think anyone has, yes, to go barefoot can mean a short period of discomfort but it's usually easy to keep the horse comfortable. And to regain hoof function sometimes IS worth a short period of discomfort for the horse in my opinion.
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Not the OP but someone else, I have sent you a pm
 
criso said:
Where that has happened as you say the owner has got another vet locally to refer. Even if it's not a insurance claim and most including my own horse are not as by the time they find Rockley they have used up insurance money or run out of time; to go ahead when you do not have the consent of the vet could potentially cause all sorts of problems,
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If the horse is transferred to the practice in Devon, and there is no insurance involved, what problems would it cause?
 
joycec said:
If the horse is transferred to the practice in Devon, and there is no insurance involved, what problems would it cause?
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You transport the horse to Devon, sign up with the practice, vet examines horse, horse proves not to meet the criteria for Rockley or Nic doesn't feel it would benefit, wasted journey.

Makes much more sense to get have these conversations before and get the referral and then send it down.
 
criso said:
You transport the horse to Devon, sign up with the practice, vet examines horse, horse proves not to meet the criteria for Rockley or Nic doesn't feel it would benefit, wasted journey.

Makes much more sense to get have these conversations before and get the referral and then send it down.
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All possible prior to trip taking place by looking at history and scans and x rays. Of course it would be better if the vet agreed, but I wouldn't want people to think a barefoot rehab can't be done just because your vet doesn't agree. That's the only point I'm trying to make here.
 
joycec said:
All possible prior to trip taking place by looking at history and scans and x rays. Of course it would be better if the vet agreed, but I wouldn't want people to think a barefoot rehab can't be done just because your vet doesn't agree. That's the only point I'm trying to make here.
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We are talking about a specific facility (Rockley) here that only takes horses with the consent of their vet. If someone wants to sent their horse there they will need that.

In most cases Nic has been able to talk the vet round (mine was fairly sceptical and only agreed as there was nothing else he could suggest and didn't think it would hurt), where this has not been possible a second opinion has been got and the referral done that way.

I'm sure this will be in the FAQs on the website

ETA

Rehab FAQs the first line talks about referral.

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/p/rehab-horses.html

And further down the page

• Does my vet need to refer my horse to you? He is dubious about barefoot.
Horses need to come here with the consent of their vets, but although many vets are (quite understandably) sceptical the first time they send a horse here, most are interested in following the progress of their patients. I am always happy to talk to them about exactly what we do, and send them regular updates, if they like, via photos and video.
 
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Its interesting to see where this discussion has gone. Firstly to the person suggesting I shoot my in pain horse, the lameness is very mild. My dressage instructor could not see it in straight lines or 20m circles, I had to trot several small circles for her to agree she was lame, so I'll keep her going for now. ;-)
I'm very tempted to try an at home barefoot rehab. She is looking comfy without her front shoes since they were removed for xray.
What I was really interested to hear were successful shod rehabs. It would appear those are limited in number. I think I might start with an old fashioned, turn her away without shoes for winter & re_asses in spring, along with a thorough physio session. She's 17 & never had time off, so probably deserves it.:-)
 
Just be aware that turning away doesn't always bring them sound and you may need to get her walking, either now or in the spring, to get a result. But your strategy seems sound to me :)
 
Thanks, I won't have time for regular walks over winter, so spring rehab would work best. I figure turn out for a few months over winter with no shoes will do her no harm.
 
w1bbler said:
What I was really interested to hear were successful shod rehabs. It would appear those are limited in number.
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I did promise to post a link to the study I was referring to. I have seen the fully study and success varies depending on the specific injury.

Bone issues range roughly from 20% to 40% success.
Soft tissue injuries such as damage to structure such as the DDFT, Collateral ligament etc (which you will only identify if you have MRI's) from 0% to 20%

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21039796
 
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