Navicular: can the damage be reversed?

[Cinnamontoast]

Interesting article.

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/surprise-surprisenot-really.html?spref=fb

 

[Ronalda]

Yes it is; and there are many more.

Thanks Nic, I have learned much over the years.

 

[cptrayes]

Yes, you'll see that article is over a year old. That's why we barefoot people bang on about it so much.

I wince every time I read that someone has a horse put down for navicular. They are just going to feel so bad once the rest of the vets and farriers wake up to what can be done :'(

 

[amandap]

I reckon people should also read this and the other 'popular' posts. http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/2011/10/comparing-heel-first-and-toe-first.html

 

[Orangehorse]

Met someone last night whose horse had suspected navicular, been shod in heart bars. When I suggested she try barefoot "Oh my horse can't go without shoes."

And there are so many good stories out there ......................

 

[Leg_end]

Yes it can - my horse showed improvement 9 months post barefoot. Incredible really.

 

[old hand]

Yes as can all bone injuries, and it is possible with shoes too but the farrier will need to balance the feet to the x rays and get the pedal bone angle correct. navicular does cover a lot of different injuries and some will respong far better than others, significant tendon and ligament lesions are far harder to correct, however, I did manage with one walked hundreds of miles in hand and under saddle and he was reshod once sound, stayed sound and in full work, showjumping etc. he could not wear boots as he had very thin skin and they all rubbed. All our bridleways are mended with type one aggregate so shoeless is not an option round here. Bloody mountain bikers, I seriously think the local council think they are the only ones who use bridleways.

 

[Heelfirst]

Yes!

 

[TheCurlyPony]

We have just completed our 3 year navicular free.

 

[paulineh]

It has been 16 months since I took my mare BF, 6 months trimmed by my farrier and 10 months trimmed by a Equine Podiatrist. She was diagnosed with navicular (in the left hoof) via MRI SCAN in 2012. After going down the vet route with Tildem etc and Egg bar shoes , first on their own and then with wedges ( which made her worse)I took her shoes off. At first with tine shoes on she improved 1/10th lame on the circle then things went down hill, hence taking the shoes off. She has never really been sound so can we say that Navicular can be reversed ????? . Three weeks ago she had Osphos because we felt that maybe there was now a problem in her right hoof. So far no improvement but yesterday my vet (who came to see one of my other horses) said it can take up to 2 months before we see an improvement.

Many many horse do go sound when going BF but are those the ones we hear about. It is a bit like using Turmeric go onto the FB page and you hear of all the good results but not the ones that do not work.

 

[paulineh]

We have just completed our 3 year navicular free.

I would not say you are Navicular free as there will be changes in the hooves as with humans there will always be some bone changes as we get older.

 

[Tnavas]

Use a bit of common sense here! You cannot reverse bone deposits laid down by the Navicular bone!

There are varying degrees of Navicular syndrome, some minor with a small amount of rough bony areas or bad navicular where large amounts of bony changes interfere with ligaments and tendons.

I've worked with Navicular horses that have come back into work and hunted for many seasons on Warfarin. Some have been shod to help reduce friction, some have been shod normally.

Once a vet told me that the majority of horses will show some sign of bone damage in their feet. For some that damage increases and affects performance, for others there is no visible sign of damage.

We can halt the progression but not reverse it!

Recently I read an article about fossilised horse bones from thousands of years back. Most showed signs of Navicular and of Laminitis. So sorry barefoot gurus, shoes are not the cause of these problems.

If your horse is comfortable without shoes that's great, mine is until her work load increases and then she needs shoes. She is 11 and been barefoot all her life, except when in hard work. Her daughter aged 6 has been diagnosed with bi lateral side bone on both front feet, she has worn shoes for only a few months, she was broken in just over a year ago. These degenerative diseases are also about the breed, not always about workload or shoeing.

 

[cptrayes]

Use a bit of common sense here! You cannot reverse bone deposits laid down by the Navicular bone!

There are varying degrees of Navicular syndrome, some minor with a small amount of rough bony areas or bad navicular where large amounts of bony changes interfere with ligaments and tendons.

I've worked with Navicular horses that have come back into work and hunted for many seasons on Warfarin. Some have been shod to help reduce friction, some have been shod normally.

Once a vet told me that the majority of horses will show some sign of bone damage in their feet. For some that damage increases and affects performance, for others there is no visible sign of by damage.

We can halt the progression but not reverse it!

Recently I read an article about fossilised horse bones from thousands of years back. Most showed signs of Navicular and of Laminitis. So sorry barefoot gurus, shoes are not the cause of these problems.

If your horse is comfortable without shoes that's great, mine is until her work load increases and then she needs shoes. She is 11 and been barefoot all her life, except when in hard work. Her daughter aged 6 has been diagnosed with bi lateral side bone on both front feet, she has worn shoes for only a few months, she was broken in just over a year ago. These degenerative diseases are also about the breed, not always about workload or shoeing.

There is almost no correlation between anything but severe bone changes to the navicular and lameness in horses.

There is evidence that it is the ddft in a toe first landing that damages the navicular bone.

Rockleyfarm.blogspot.com have sound five sets of x rays showing remodeling of the coffin and/or navicular bone after a barefoot rehab.

Barefooters do not believe shoes cause navicular, we believe that lack of stimulus to the back of the foot causes navicular. That can happen for many reasons to both barefoot and shod horses, But shoes are a primary cause because they lift the frog out of ground contact.

OF COURSE additional bone can be remodeled away. It happens all the time with splints and with other injuries. Bone forms quickly in response to damage and the excess is remodeled over a period of a year or so by the action of osteoclasts, I think they are called.

Please don't tell people they don't know what they are talking about without doing your research tnavas. You are VERY out of date if you think warfarin is still a treatment. Now that we have MRI, we know that almost all navicular syndrome lameness is caused by soft tissue injury, not bone damage.

 

[Tnavas]

There is almost no correlation between anything but severe bone changes to the navicular and lameness in horses.

There is evidence that it is the ddft in a toe first landing that damages the navicular bone.

Rockleyfarm.blogspot.com have sound five sets of x rays showing remodeling of the coffin and/or navicular bone after a barefoot rehab.

Barefooters do not believe shoes cause navicular, we believe that lack of stimulus to the back of the foot causes navicular. That can happen for many reasons to both barefoot and shod horses, But shoes are a primary cause because they lift the frog out of ground contact.

OF COURSE additional bone can be remodeled away. It happens all the time with splints and with other injuries. Bone forms quickly in response to damage and the excess is remodeled over a period of a year or so by the action of osteoclasts, I think they are called.

Please don't tell people they don't know what they are talking about without doing your research tnavas. You are VERY out of date if you think warfarin is still a treatment. Now that we have MRI, we know that almost all navicular syndrome lameness is caused by soft tissue injury, not bone damage.

I am well aware that Warfarin is no longer used, I pointed out that I had worked with horses that went sound on Warfarin and carried on working, nowhere did I say anything about it being current.

I DO NOT believe that being barefoot is the be all and end all of horses becoming sound again.

While bone remodels when bony osephytes develop they don't go easily. Some if caught early and rested may be re absorbed, it's not a definite happening.

Modern means of viewing inside the feet make it far easier for vets to see and correctly diagnose damage. I've seen many navicular bones with and without damage. We also know that the majority of splints don't go, they may reduce but not go completely. Just as if you have had a broken bone there will be some bone thickening over the break that will never go.

 

[cptrayes]

I DO NOT believe that being barefoot is the be all and end all of horses becoming sound again.

Have you ever actually done a barefoot rehab on a long term unsound horse failed by all the medication and remedial shoeing that money can throw at it?

Come to that, have you ever had a sound hard working barefoot horse? It doesn't sound like it.

You are terribly quick to disparage something you seem to know precious little about, tnavas.

 

[Leg_end]

Use a bit of common sense here! You cannot reverse bone deposits laid down by the Navicular bone!

We can halt the progression but not reverse it!

So sorry barefoot gurus, shoes are not the cause of these problems.

Tvnas - how would you explain these X-rays then?

Picture on the left was taken in Sept 12 and the right in Aug 13. Horse had been barefoot for 9 months at this point.

On your point that shoes aren't the cause of this condition, I would agree with you, in part. The issue is incorrect foot balance, loading, low heel/long toe etc etc and that can happen in a barefoot or shod horse - this condition doesn't discriminate. However I don't know of any other treatment, bar taking the shoes off, that improves the condition (and trust me I tried everything!).

 

[OwnedbyJoe]

Tnavas I suggest you go and have a look here:
http://courses.washington.edu/conj/bess/bone/bone2.html
Or here:
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/684133/bone-remodeling
Or this, from "Physiology of Bone Formation, Remodeling, and Metabolism"
Usha Kini and B. N. Nandeesh
"Bone constantly undergoes modeling (reshaping) during life to help it adapt to changing biomechanical forces, as well as remodeling to remove old, microdamaged bone and replace it with new, mechanically stronger bone to help preserve bone strength."
Change a mechanical stress on a bone (for example by taking a shod horse barefoot, or by improving the shoeing job in a shod horse and removing the stress of an over long toe and the associated strain on the attachment of the deep digital flexor tendon) and it will remodel in response.
How else would you explain fracture repair? It is in essence just a response to a new strain on a bone... and healed fracture sites continue to remodel for years. I am living testimony to that.
Many of the treatments currently and previously espoused for navicular have little or no real evidence (in the form of clinical trials) behind them (as do most treatments in horses - they're just too damn expensive to run clinical trials with!). Horse medicine is a splendid example of the "personal anectdotal experience becoming the accepted wisdom". And yet, when barefooters propose an alternative, they have to have evidence up to double blinded clinical trial standard to be accepted by some people...

 

[Geminismum]

My girl was diagnosed as a 3 year old with moderate navicular disease VIA MRI in Oct 2013. She went to Rockley in Feb where she came sound. We've had a blip over summer where she went slightly lame again, but I found out it was due to a nasty abscess. She was re MRI'd in September and her Navicular disease has improved. The bone changes are less prononuced and the anti barefoot vet actually downgraded her from moderate to slight (which I have in writing) I intend to have her MRI'd again in the next 2-3 years as I genuinely believe that following a barefoot lifestyle has been the saving of her.

 

[tallyho!]

YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES occasionate no YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES

p.s. Tnavas... welcome to 21st century hoofcare...

 

[amandaco2]

Have seen it, my mare had changes on xrays aged 9. Had xrays aged 17 and no sign of the navicular bone damage.
she had her shoes off at 10yrs old. Now nearly 30 and still hacking out

 

[Tnavas]

YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES occasionate no YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES

p.s. Tnavas... welcome to 21st century hoofcare...

You can write sarcastic comments all you like - Barefoot is just no shoes! It is not the be all and end all of hoof care and there is still a desperately large number of 'barefoot trimmers' out there with seriously limited knowledge damaging feet far more than they help.

Bone remodels all the time but you cannot lose areas of extra deposits just because you believe it so. If you break your arm at any age - the fracture is healed by an additional layer of bone - which when a body is autopsied is still there as clear as a bell that the bone was damaged.

Splints may go down a little as they settle - but they don't go.

The best thing for a shin sore horse is the fact that the body puts down an extra layer of bone - which you can see many years later on many a race horse. Some trainers even encourage the horse to become sore as the new layer of bone strengthens the leg.

AND may I remind you that thousands of years ago - before shoes were even invented - that horses suffered from Navicular, Ringbone, Laminitis - and WOW not a shoe in sight - I wonder how that could have happened.

HORSES ARE PRONE TO THESE PROBLEMS BY THEIR CONFORMATION!

 

[twiggy2]

Barefoot is just no shoes! It is not the be all and end all of hoof care and there is still a desperately large number of 'barefoot trimmers' out there with seriously limited knowledge damaging feet far more than they help.

I am not getting into the rest of this thread but my horse wears no shoes (barefoot is just the fashionable title as far as I am concerned) and for me it is more involved than 'just no shoes' she is trimmed by a farrier and has always been so, I have grave concerns about 'barefoot trimmers' and the lack of training, insurance and regulation. If my farrier creates damage or injures my mare there are ways to claim against him and he could be prevented from working as a farrier, there is no such course of action with a barefoot trimmer due to lack of regulation meaning there is no expectation of a set level of work, care or knowledge. I am also surprised by the amount of people that pay a barefoot trimmer with no formal training or set standards of work/knowledge more than I pay my farrier who trained for 5yrs and has to be insured and a member of a governing body. I can give all the talk about diet, conditioning etc and recognise healthy verses unhealthy hooves/frogs etc and can also recognise common issues but my farriers expertease is invaluable.

 

[cptrayes]

Barefoot is just no shoes

No it's not.

AND may I remind you that thousands of years ago - before shoes were even invented - that horses suffered from Navicular, Ringbone, Laminitis - and WOW not a shoe in sight - I wonder how that could have happened.

Because barefoot is not just no shoes. By far the most important aspect is work, followed by diet

HORSES ARE PRONE TO THESE PROBLEMS BY THEIR CONFORMATION!

All the more reason, surely, not to add to the risks by using shoes if they aren't necessary.

 

[cptrayes]

You can write sarcastic comments all you like - Barefoot is just no shoes! It is not the be all and end all of hoof care and there is still a desperately large number of 'barefoot trimmers' out there with seriously limited knowledge damaging feet far more than they help.

You are in New Zealand. It has a big history of Strasser trained trimmers who did huge damage to horses feet in the UK until they were prosecuted out of their butchering ways. I doubt you really have the knowledge of the UK to comment about trimmers over here, but they are no worse or better than farriers, there are good and bad of both.

 

[Tnavas]

I am not getting into the rest of this thread but my horse wears no shoes (barefoot is just the fashionable title as far as I am concerned) and for me it is more involved than 'just no shoes' she is trimmed by a farrier and has always been so, I have grave concerns about 'barefoot trimmers' and the lack of training, insurance and regulation. If my farrier creates damage or injures my mare there are ways to claim against him and he could be prevented from working as a farrier, there is no such course of action with a barefoot trimmer due to lack of regulation meaning there is no expectation of a set level of work, care or knowledge. I am also surprised by the amount of people that pay a barefoot trimmer with no formal training or set standards of work/knowledge more than I pay my farrier who trained for 5yrs and has to be insured and a member of a governing body. I can give all the talk about diet, conditioning etc and recognise healthy verses unhealthy hooves/frogs etc and can also recognise common issues but my farriers expertease is invaluable.

Twiggy2 - mine has no shoes on - is 11 years old - is trimmed by a registered qualified farrier and has only had to have one set of shoes on in her life when in hard work during a dry summer - she was footsore and immediately the shoes were on went sound.

 

[Leo Walker]

My horse was crippled by a farrier. One who had won awards and was amazing at his job ie keeping shoes on the horse. His old owner never thought to question why he had to come in and lay down for a couple of hours every day or why he would climb a 4 foot high grassy bank rather than walk over the gritty drive.

I bought him knowing his feet werent great, I just didnt know how bad they were! Hes now done by a trimmer and on a barefoot diet. We have had a hell of a rollercoaster getting him right, including a stay at horsepital to get on top of his longterm deep seated thrush infection that the farrier had never mentioned. The shoes were kept on crappy horn by an ingenious method of shoeing. I too would have given the farrier an award for that!

I could go on and on and on about how bad he was and how long it has taken to get him right, but I wont :lol: I will say my other horse is fine having had 2 years of trimming by a farrier in the NE, so no doubt the quality of shoeing makes a difference. I have learnt a LOT! an no horse of mine will ever wear shoes again. They simply dont need to so long as the owner is prepared to put the work in

 

[Tnavas]

You are in New Zealand. It has a big history of Strasser trained trimmers who did huge damage to horses feet in the UK until they were prosecuted out of their butchering ways. I doubt you really have the knowledge of the UK to comment about trimmers over here, but they are no worse or better than farriers, there are good and bad of both.

We don't live in the *** wops here you know - New Zealand has produced many really top level horses, scientists - the National Health - I could continue! Unfortunately we have Strasser trained people here, though fortunately not many.

For a country with a population of London we can produce world standard riders and horses.

World wide the comments on forums are the same! Barefoot trimmers are not all they think they are cracked up to be! Their training is minimal compared to a farriers. They have egos the size of a mountain and skills the size of molehills!

My farrier can do a far better job as any barefooter thinks they can. He's Welsh and UK qualified. I have a couple of friends who are barefoot trimmers - both trained in the Strasser method and neither of would be allowed to trim my horses. Both do a crap job - one cut her own horses feet back so badly he looked like he was built straight through the shoulder - his picture even turned up in a clinic run by an American show specialist in the poor conformation section. I was stunned that a trim could do so much damage to the horse which I knew well and knew that it didn't have such an awful shoulder.

If you want to jump on the bandwagon with other lemmings thats up to you. I certainly won't be! My four year and 2 month Fulltime trained farrier will remain the only person to do my horses feet. He has done them since her very first trim at 6 months old and I am often complemented on her lovely shaped feet.

 

[Leo Walker]

My trimmer has to train for 4yrs, shes not done that yet, however she is good! She talks me through everything and shows me what she is going to do and why. She also knows about diet and conditioning. She takes photos and I get a PDF file emailed to me with before and after photos and an explanation of whats been done and what we will do in the future, and comments on weigh/condition/diet. I'm happy with that its more than any farrier has ever done, including the "barefoot" trained farriers in the NE

 

[Tnavas]

however she is good! She talks me through everything and shows me what she is going to do and why. She also knows about diet and conditioning. She takes photos and I get a PDF file emailed to me with before and after photos and an explanation of whats been done and what we will do in the future, and comments on weigh/condition/diet. I'm happy with that its more than any farrier has ever done, including the "barefoot" trained farriers in the NE

"My trimmer has to train for 4yrs, shes not done that yet", - and you are happy with that?

Why has she not done her 4yr training first before going out and trimming someone elses horses feet - what if she stuffs up and makes your horse lame - you have no come back.

Crazy!

 

[Alyth]

Come on guys this is not NZ v UK Yes, we do have Strasser trimmers here, and they are very good....nothing like the ones you have had problems with in the UK. They are not invasive and they have a very good reputation...along with other schools of thought And I do wish we had a 'like' button as I would have pressed it a number of times through this thread It seems there are several ideas about whether navicular can be reversed or not....but first we need to decide what 'navicular' actually is.....to me I believe it is 'heel pain', and that can be caused by a number of things which may be relieved/cured by various treatments depending on the cause ..... it may, or may not relate to bone changes, and the bone changes may or may not be changed in turn by treatment, just like a broken leg may be changed according to how it is set.....so can we please stop arguing about techniques when we need to combine our information so we can help horses with these problems to heal and move on to a continued productive life...all methods of treatment have successes and failures and we need to be objective and recognise changes when they occur, not critical of things we have not studied in detail.....can we combine our knowledge and progress?