Navicular diagnosis, positive stories please!

teddy_

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Two weeks ago, further to the onset of an acute lameness after a few short less-acute lamenesses and many x-rays, my poor horse was diagnosed with what three highly experienced equine vets could only describe as deformed navicular bones in both front feet with some obvious degeneration (don't know any of the technical lingo!). The horse would have been born with the deformed bones but the degeneration would have happened subsequently.

I have produced this horse from a weanling to the age of seven, mainly on my own so the whole thing is a tad devastating. One day he was fine, two weeks later he was written off. I think it will take a while to come to terms with the fact that we won’t do most or any of the things I thought we would.

He is a Trakehner with uneven front feet. My farrier has done an amazing job to date, however unbeknown to me, apparently warmblood horses with uneven front foot conformation are predisposed to navicular degeneration / disease - whatever you want to call it!

So I guess, it would be lovely to hear some positive stories of what other forum members have done with their navicular horses. I know that fast work and jumping are off the cards but, I live in hope that we can enjoy something together.

I am currently looking to purchase a new ‘main’ riding horse but, I know that this boy still needs a job. He has a workmanlike attitude and as a result, I can already see the boredom in him.

Seeing as the horse is pretty much sound on hard, level ground and in the field but, obviously very uncomfortable on the arena surface, my vet has suggested in the first instance to try simple heart bar shoes and see how he does with those. If they’re not quite enough, we can then think about medicating. Sadly, barefoot is simply not an option for this horse as he has one boxy foot with a weak toe that snaps off with no shoes, causing the foot to knuckle over further.

Please no veterinary suggestions, I have all the support I need in that department. I just want some happy endings...

Photo attached of the wonderful boy in question!
226578089_4208222139259002_7393638489797169180_n.jpeg
 

paddi22

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I had a similar warmblood type arrive in spring and was told he couldn't go barefoot as he had a club foot and weak toe. he deteriorated so much that we took off shoes as a last option after him being in heart bars etc. his club foot coped perfectly fine without shoes, changed shape and now I have no issue hacking him etc with no shoes.

the horse in my profile pic to the left also had navicular. I ended up taking shoes off him as he was just constantly off with the navicular. I still event him barefoot and just hack out in boots when needed and we haven't had any lameness issues since. it was my positive experience with him that made me confident to take on the newer warmblood because I just trusted his hoof would adapt when the shoes came off. .

I am someone who always shod my horses for the last 30 years but it has been really astounding and educational to see how much written-off horses have improved with the barefoot approach. the rockyley farm blog is well worth a read.
 

teddy_

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I had a similar warmblood type arrive in spring and was told he couldn't go barefoot as he had a club foot and weak toe. he deteriorated so much that we took off shoes as a last option after him being in heart bars etc. his club foot coped perfectly fine without shoes, changed shape and now I have no issue hacking him etc with no shoes.

the horse in my profile pic to the left also had navicular. I ended up taking shoes off him as he was just constantly off with the navicular. I still event him barefoot and just hack out in boots when needed and we haven't had any lameness issues since. it was my positive experience with him that made me confident to take on the newer warmblood because I just trusted his hoof would adapt when the shoes came off. .

I am someone who always shod my horses for the last 30 years but it has been really astounding and educational to see how much written-off horses have improved with the barefoot approach. the rockyley farm blog is well worth a read.
Thank you, I will give this some more thought.
 

lynz88

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I'm looking to go barefoot. I not only have navicular changes but also negative angles in 3 feet including the one with the navicular changes. At the time his feet weren't the greatest so decided to try bar shoes and wedges as at the time it seemed like worth giving it a try. We've now gone through 3 shoeings and now convinced that pulling the shoes altogether might be best. Farrier didn't want to do it without vet approval about 1.5 months ago when I mentioned he was struggling far too much and wanted to go barefoot but after the latest round, farrier has agreed barefoot is likely best - especially as I've got a lot of growth on both the toe and the heel but the heel is running forwards and not down. Am also taking a serious look at his diet to give him the best chance.

Have talked on and off about going barefoot over the years as I've always believed that it would be the best way to manage and correct negative angles and navicular changes (clearly this has been an on-again and off-again problem) but have been scared to take the leap. I am now ready to make the leap...
 

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Not with my own horses but experience with a friends horse that was diagnosed with navicular changes both front feet. Remidial shoeing and jel injections into feet….now heart bars fitted and going sound at the moment 2 years on having jel injections again shortly as a precaution. She tried bare foot horse was crippled sound with shoes on,all horses are different some just can’t go bare foot. Our farrier is the best in our area for remidial foot work he’s working with my horse at the moment with a foot injury….i trust him with my horses future.
 

teddy_

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Not with my own horses but experience with a friends horse that was diagnosed with navicular changes both front feet. Remidial shoeing and jel injections into feet….now heart bars fitted and going sound at the moment 2 years on having jel injections again shortly as a precaution. She tried bare foot horse was crippled sound with shoes on,all horses are different some just can’t go bare foot. Our farrier is the best in our area for remidial foot work he’s working with my horse at the moment with a foot injury….i trust him with my horses future.
Thank you.

I am kind of leaning in this way too. I understand the barefoot approach has been a game changer for so many horses with navicular. However, I have had this horse since he was 8 months old and he actually had to start being shod as a two year old as his boxy foot was so bad, my farrier was concerned we might reach a point of no return.

I think I am going to do the above and try heart bars first. I'd like to steer clear of pads approaching winter months as I like my horses to have access to as much turnout as they like and pads + muddy field = not fun :).
 

I'm Dun

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It makes me so sad to read threads like this. Why is barefoot not being prescribed by vets and farriers as the first option? They know it works, they know remedial shoeing almost never does and certainly does more harm than good, and still its there go to.

If your horse is crippled without shoes its even more important to get the shoes off and deal with the issues. There are lots of ways to keep them comfortable whilst doing it. Its not a case of rip the shoes off and watch them hobbling around for months.
 

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It makes me so sad to read threads like this. Why is barefoot not being prescribed by vets and farriers as the first option? They know it works, they know remedial shoeing almost never does and certainly does more harm than good, and still its there go to.

If your horse is crippled without shoes its even more important to get the shoes off and deal with the issues. There are lots of ways to keep them comfortable whilst doing it. Its not a case of rip the shoes off and watch them hobbling around for months.

This x100

No horse "has" to be shod. We shoe so that we can do what we want with. A 2yr old with hoof issues like a club foot most definitely does not need shoes.

I am not pointing blame OP. I had an equine vet who was telling me how their 2yr old "needed" shoes because of white line disease and how as a vet she knew better. I know vets who are missing formed and close minded who pressure people into things. My TB was BF with good hoof quality but had an issue elsewhere. She was adamant that horses, especially TBs, needed shoes.

Thankfully more vets, farriers and people involved with horses are becoming more open minded and starting to have first hand experiences of healthy barefoot horses.

As basic physics it makes zero sense to nail a 3/4 metal rim onto a dynamic structure. No other athlete uses metal as shoes. A rim doesn't offer "protection". Metal shoes increase concussion while simultaneously reduces the limbs ability to absorb concussion. Hooves expand on contact but shoes are a fixed size and also fitted when the hoof is lifted.

Read Rockly blog and Hoof Geek. If shoes were the answer why did the horse develop hoof balance and navucular issues whilst in shoes?

As horse people we are so conditioned just to accept what has always been as the only way.
 

SusieT

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Personally if hes coped well for the last how many years I would take a step back, give home 6-8 weeks rest then reassess.
 

teddy_

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It makes me so sad to read threads like this. Why is barefoot not being prescribed by vets and farriers as the first option? They know it works, they know remedial shoeing almost never does and certainly does more harm than good, and still its there go to.

If your horse is crippled without shoes its even more important to get the shoes off and deal with the issues. There are lots of ways to keep them comfortable whilst doing it. Its not a case of rip the shoes off and watch them hobbling around for months.
I understand what you're saying but my horse is not crippled lame. He is actually remarkably sound on trot up.
 

teddy_

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This x100

No horse "has" to be shod. We shoe so that we can do what we want with. A 2yr old with hoof issues like a club foot most definitely does not need shoes.

I am not pointing blame OP. I had an equine vet who was telling me how their 2yr old "needed" shoes because of white line disease and how as a vet she knew better. I know vets who are missing formed and close minded who pressure people into things. My TB was BF with good hoof quality but had an issue elsewhere. She was adamant that horses, especially TBs, needed shoes.

Thankfully more vets, farriers and people involved with horses are becoming more open minded and starting to have first hand experiences of healthy barefoot horses.

As basic physics it makes zero sense to nail a 3/4 metal rim onto a dynamic structure. No other athlete uses metal as shoes. A rim doesn't offer "protection". Metal shoes increase concussion while simultaneously reduces the limbs ability to absorb concussion. Hooves expand on contact but shoes are a fixed size and also fitted when the hoof is lifted.

Read Rockly blog and Hoof Geek. If shoes were the answer why did the horse develop hoof balance and navucular issues whilst in shoes?

As horse people we are so conditioned just to accept what has always been as the only way.
Thank you. I understand what you're saying but this was not the reason I posted this.

I am not looking for advice on management, I will take that step by step with assistance from professionals and flex my approach where needed.

What I wanted was positive stories of people who have horses with navicular but still manage to have some fun - regardless of how they managed the condition in their horse.
 

paddi22

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With my navicular one I was told his toes would break and he would collapse back on his heels if the shoes came off. pic on the left is after the remedial shoes came off and the one on the right is a few months later. Upon X-ray his navicular had totally retreated as hoof angles changed. I have no issues with him on any surface apart from very sharp stones (where I boot up). and his lameness never came back. If I had kept shoeing him remedially I think he would been crippled permanently. I think you can hit a stage with remedial shoes where they start causing more problems than they fix. Screenshot 2021-08-04 at 16.19.20.png
 

paddi22

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also this is the warmblood that had the very boxed club foot. it was a very tiny but tall, nearly square hoof originally, and the pressure it put on his balance caused him to be lame a lot, as well as throwing pelvis and back out of whack. this is is a year after the heartbar shoes came off. The hoof gradually spread and changed angle. still a way to go, but his overall leg stance is unrecognisable from what it was.
 

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lynz88

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With my navicular one I was told his toes would break and he would collapse back on his heels if the shoes came off. pic on the left is after the remedial shoes came off and the one on the right is a few months later. Upon X-ray his navicular had totally retreated as hoof angles changed. I have no issues with him on any surface apart from very sharp stones (where I boot up). and his lameness never came back. If I had kept shoeing him remedially I think he would been crippled permanently. I think you can hit a stage with remedial shoes where they start causing more problems than they fix. View attachment 76992

Wow what a difference! Totally agree with this last bit. Mine has been in and out of shoes and wedges and they "worked" until this time they didn't...if I had of known then what I know now I would have fired the other farriers long ago when the problems started (I did eventually but it took me a long time) and stuck with barefoot.
 

teddy_

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With my navicular one I was told his toes would break and he would collapse back on his heels if the shoes came off. pic on the left is after the remedial shoes came off and the one on the right is a few months later. Upon X-ray his navicular had totally retreated as hoof angles changed. I have no issues with him on any surface apart from very sharp stones (where I boot up). and his lameness never came back. If I had kept shoeing him remedially I think he would been crippled permanently. I think you can hit a stage with remedial shoes where they start causing more problems than they fix. View attachment 76992
This is interesting, but I cannot draw a comparison as my horse could not have more different foot conformation. I understand the essence of what you're saying though - that is is possible to re-model the shape of a horses foot without shoes.

I cannot help but feel this thread has a vibe of "barefoot or nothing" (not pointing my finger at you specifically) which ultimately, is just not true. I have personal experience of horses who have had their navicular problems managed by remedial shoeing, and the end result was a sound, comfortable horse.

I think binary approaches are dangerous and I am not discounting barefoot in general however, right now, it is not something I plan on doing - for various reasons.
 

lynz88

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I think you've just come across across whole bunch of people who haven't had success in using remedial shoeing. I have read stories where it has worked and I know horses where it has worked. Mine was in and out for a while and now I've just decided to take him out for good - it is my last shot before sending him off to retirement
 

teddy_

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I think you've just come across across whole bunch of people who haven't had success in using remedial shoeing. I have read stories where it has worked and I know horses where it has worked. Mine was in and out for a while and now I've just decided to take him out for good - it is my last shot before sending him off to retirement
Agreed, and I am not trying to discount anyone's experience or opinions.

Horses are as individual as us humans so I think it is mindful to consider one approach does not fit all. Barefoot has enabled some horses to turn a corner, as has remedial shoeing. That really is the long and the short of it.

This is a highly emotive subject so I understand why some feel very strongly about the correct course of action.

Now, can people please tell me what they have achieved with their horses post diagnosis - barefoot or shod :p!
 

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Ok, mine had a full and active life doing LOADS of hacking, jumping, cross country but only after she had gone barefoot, she was intermittently lame the whole time she was in "remedial" shoes. Is that what you're after :) ?
 

teddy_

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Ok, mine had a full and active life doing LOADS of hacking, jumping, cross country but only after she had gone barefoot, she was intermittently lame the whole time she was in "remedial" shoes. Is that what you're after :) ?
Yes, but without the sarcastic comment at the end would have been nice.

I am beginning to think people can only see what they want to see. How many times do I have to say, I am not discounting barefoot. It is just not something I am looking to do in the immediate future.
 

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Last spiel from me. "Most" people have tried remedial shoeing first because that what "most" vets suggest.

The thing is that shoes for "navicular" are nothing more than a plaster. Continuing to shoe doesn't enable the hoof to "heal". A lot of us had what we thought were successes with trying wedges/eggbars/heartbars because initially ghe horses appeared cured or at least healed.

I've been where you were and I had the "best" vets and farrier. It wasn't until I after I lost my second horse to navicular that I started having a look into this barefoot nonsense. At that time (2010) there wasn't as much info available, or people with success stories, as there is now.

I started off reading the Rockley farm blog, the books by Jaime Jackson and Pete Ramey and the Feet First UK book. Lightbulbs started going off just through a basic understanding anatomy and physics.

There days there are quite a few UK books and websites. There are also lots of horses these days who have purposely never been shod or who have come out of shoes prior to issues developing.

I can't speak definitely on behalf of others in this thread but I think the reason why people have said what they said, despite your insistence otherwise, is because they/we've been in your shoes (no pun intended!). At one point we've wasted/lost time (& horses in my case) by doing what the "best" equine specialist vets have advised and used their recommended farriers using their recommended "remedial" shoes.

It's not vet bashing. Farriery and hoof care takes up very little of a vast degree. Teachings haven't kept up or adjusted to developments in hoofcare and hoof pathologies. Heck look at the hooves of races horses and even some (dare I say most ?) of the shod hooves at the Olympics. The best of the best and they have badly contracted heels, small & weak frogs and the oddest of shapes. Pathologies become normal and accepted.

Ironically farriers are more aware of the damage that shoes cause. Read any good farrier book and they all say that hooves NEED a break from shoes to allow them to recover.

"Back in the day" horses weren't used year round. Hunters had the summer off turned away and leisure/competition horses had the winters off. This 12wks without shoes allowed nail holes to grow out and the hoof to remodel itself.

I'm in Scotland and the Ferrie brothers were excellent farriers. They wrote an article for the horse supplement of The Scottish Farmer magazine a few years ago. Their article was about these days they are seeing far more sick hooves and it came down to having shoes on year round. This is leading to WLD, navicular and palmer hoof issues.

Again I can't speak on behalf of the others but I *think* their replies are so you don't repeat their (my) mistakes. I think most of us who have been through it wish more than anything that we had discovered and went barefoot sooner.

It is hard especially when there is already a problem and to choose barefoot is seen to be going against a vet. Often vets have never witnessed healthy performance barefoot horses never mind a barefoot rehabs.

Another take harks back to my plaster analogy. Remedial shoes do not fix the hoof and when it's shoeing that have caused the issues how can shoes fix it?

I had one horse, at vets instructions, go into wedged eggbar shoes. At first I thought that they were a success because the horse appeared sounder/sound. The wedge changed the angle of the hoof and crushed the heels as well as affected the hocks and SI. Now with distance I can look at it as basic physics. This aggrevated her hocks and it all just got too much for her so I made the call. Ironically I had tried barefoot before switching to the specialist vet. It wasn't as common in 2010 and knowing what I know now I now know that I received the wrong advice from the trimmer who was new to it herself. I was all too happy to jump at the vets advice and nail whatever it took back onto her hooves.

If I'd only stuck with barefoot my wee mare, more than likely, would have had, if not longer, then a happier time here.

It's an even longer story about my second mare. Again I listened to my vets and they shut me down completely when I asked about trying barefoot. I wish I'd felt empowered enough to stand up to them and take my mare home. Its 11yrs later and I am still heartbroken and guilty over it. If I had brought her home from their clinic instead of letting them tell me that her hoof balance was perfect and that TBs can't go barefoot I wouldn't have lost my one in a million 9yr old. I can look at photos now and see that in no way wwre her hooves balanced to themselves let alone each other. I was seeing them every day and that because normal. I had the vets out to her over the course of months because she was slightly off but I couldn't pin point it. They dismissed me every time until it became more obvious and the x-rays then confirmed. They had the cheek to tell me that based on the xrays the navic had been underlying for months. You know, all those months where I'd trotted her up for them and they said that there was absolutely nothing ?

We, generically speaking, are taught/brought up to respect the experts and those better trained and qualified than us. If I'd had a smidge of confidence in my own knowledge over the highly qualified orthopedic expert I wouldn't have lost this mare.

So people aren't being purposely obtuse or antagonising. They/we are desperately trying to help.
 

teddy_

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Last spiel from me. "Most" people have tried remedial shoeing first because that what "most" vets suggest.

The thing is that shoes for "navicular" are nothing more than a plaster. Continuing to shoe doesn't enable the hoof to "heal". A lot of us had what we thought were successes with trying wedges/eggbars/heartbars because initially ghe horses appeared cured or at least healed.

I've been where you were and I had the "best" vets and farrier. It wasn't until I after I lost my second horse to navicular that I started having a look into this barefoot nonsense. At that time (2010) there wasn't as much info available, or people with success stories, as there is now.

I started off reading the Rockley farm blog, the books by Jaime Jackson and Pete Ramey and the Feet First UK book. Lightbulbs started going off just through a basic understanding anatomy and physics.

There days there are quite a few UK books and websites. There are also lots of horses these days who have purposely never been shod or who have come out of shoes prior to issues developing.

I can't speak definitely on behalf of others in this thread but I think the reason why people have said what they said, despite your insistence otherwise, is because they/we've been in your shoes (no pun intended!). At one point we've wasted/lost time (& horses in my case) by doing what the "best" equine specialist vets have advised and used their recommended farriers using their recommended "remedial" shoes.

It's not vet bashing. Farriery and hoof care takes up very little of a vast degree. Teachings haven't kept up or adjusted to developments in hoofcare and hoof pathologies. Heck look at the hooves of races horses and even some (dare I say most ?) of the shod hooves at the Olympics. The best of the best and they have badly contracted heels, small & weak frogs and the oddest of shapes. Pathologies become normal and accepted.

Ironically farriers are more aware of the damage that shoes cause. Read any good farrier book and they all say that hooves NEED a break from shoes to allow them to recover.

"Back in the day" horses weren't used year round. Hunters had the summer off turned away and leisure/competition horses had the winters off. This 12wks without shoes allowed nail holes to grow out and the hoof to remodel itself.

I'm in Scotland and the Ferrie brothers were excellent farriers. They wrote an article for the horse supplement of The Scottish Farmer magazine a few years ago. Their article was about these days they are seeing far more sick hooves and it came down to having shoes on year round. This is leading to WLD, navicular and palmer hoof issues.

Again I can't speak on behalf of the others but I *think* their replies are so you don't repeat their (my) mistakes. I think most of us who have been through it wish more than anything that we had discovered and went barefoot sooner.

It is hard especially when there is already a problem and to choose barefoot is seen to be going against a vet. Often vets have never witnessed healthy performance barefoot horses never mind a barefoot rehabs.

Another take harks back to my plaster analogy. Remedial shoes do not fix the hoof and when it's shoeing that have caused the issues how can shoes fix it?

I had one horse, at vets instructions, go into wedged eggbar shoes. At first I thought that they were a success because the horse appeared sounder/sound. The wedge changed the angle of the hoof and crushed the heels as well as affected the hocks and SI. Now with distance I can look at it as basic physics. This aggrevated her hocks and it all just got too much for her so I made the call. Ironically I had tried barefoot before switching to the specialist vet. It wasn't as common in 2010 and knowing what I know now I now know that I received the wrong advice from the trimmer who was new to it herself. I was all too happy to jump at the vets advice and nail whatever it took back onto her hooves.

If I'd only stuck with barefoot my wee mare, more than likely, would have had, if not longer, then a happier time here.

It's an even longer story about my second mare. Again I listened to my vets and they shut me down completely when I asked about trying barefoot. I wish I'd felt empowered enough to stand up to them and take my mare home. Its 11yrs later and I am still heartbroken and guilty over it. If I had brought her home from their clinic instead of letting them tell me that her hoof balance was perfect and that TBs can't go barefoot I wouldn't have lost my one in a million 9yr old. I can look at photos now and see that in no way wwre her hooves balanced to themselves let alone each other. I was seeing them every day and that because normal. I had the vets out to her over the course of months because she was slightly off but I couldn't pin point it. They dismissed me every time until it became more obvious and the x-rays then confirmed. They had the cheek to tell me that based on the xrays the navic had been underlying for months. You know, all those months where I'd trotted her up for them and they said that there was absolutely nothing ?

We, generically speaking, are taught/brought up to respect the experts and those better trained and qualified than us. If I'd had a smidge of confidence in my own knowledge over the highly qualified orthopedic expert I wouldn't have lost this mare.

So people aren't being purposely obtuse or antagonising. They/we are desperately trying to help.
Thank you, I appreciate you taking the time to write that and explain in detail your experience with navicular.

I cannot stress how much that I hear what people are saying but, right now, I wish I'd never started the thread.
 

paddi22

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yep it's awful it's coming across like we are all barefoot loonies! but honestly a lot of people have been in your position. Five years ago I would have been commenting in defence of remedial shoes and raving about how my horse competed successfully in them. I n the pic on the left my lad had had three years successfully eventing in them with no issues and then we hit a wall where they just made things worse.
 

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Mine is another that’s now barefoot and sound and doing a job. And I was a sceptic ?

I don’t event him anymore as I don’t like him jumping on anything but the best ground. But he does everything else and more than he did before.

I firmly believe, that for him, keeping shoes on him would have been a one way ticket. Great farrier, but regardless of the shoeing package his feet were failing him and it’s been strengthening them up that changed the tide.

To reassure you, I also have a metabolic, box footed pony that is now barefoot. The only toe that broke off was toe that was ‘falsely’ long to make it make match the angle of the low foot.

He hasn’t knuckled over and the caudal hoof is strengthening. ? The after photos aren’t mega recent and they are looking better again now. He’s taken longer than the others, and wears boots for work on uneven ground. But he’s hacking 12miles+, and jumping.

The wonky ones can go barefoot too ?

I really think barefoot have helped mine. But if you’re looking for shoeing packages then have a look at the work The Equine Documentalist and Mark Johnson are doing - there’s some very interesting and beneficial work there ?

04FD1710-3373-42EB-975B-97AA8610FBC8.jpeg73E5E5F9-55DB-45BB-BB48-F92C50A20D3F.jpeg82440FD2-3CD0-4E27-83FF-5226E4C38FA1.jpeg3213F70F-2A94-4722-BA0A-B8336F26292A.jpeg
 

paddi22

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I would be really interested in seeing the other side of the argument with people who have navicular and remedial shoeing for a long period of time. I'm so conscious of not trying to get a bias from my own limited number of cases that have come through the yard. are there people with horses where remedial shoeing actually worked for an extended period of time?
 

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I would be really interested in seeing the other side of the argument with people who have navicular and remedial shoeing for a long period of time. I'm so conscious of not trying to get a bias from my own limited number of cases that have come through the yard. are there people with horses where remedial shoeing actually worked for an extended period of time?
There seems to be on the navicular FB forums, so long as you avoid the ones where the Admin is so pro barefoot she deletes any other view. A decent farrier is a must though. Many have had osphos.

Unlikely to help the OP but my 11yo never been shod navicular horse is retired because she never came sound, so although I still think barefoot shouldn't be dismissed by the OP it isn't a cure all
 

HufflyPuffly

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Another slight side idea, my plan for my old horse was to give her feet a break from shoes, with the expectation that she would be shod again to be worked.

She had other issues, such as cushings so barefoot and in work would have been very hard for her. The break from shoes, after 6 months in wedges was amazing, I did retire her in the end (in her 20’s and recovered from a field injury), but she would have needed shoes for any real work.

The remedial shoes destroyed her feet so I would be very hard pushed to do that again but she would have needed ‘something’ for ridden work (hoof boots were a nightmare for her shape of feet).
 
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