Navicular disease

[Elno]

Today my four year old horse got diagnosed with navicular disease on both front hooves, the left worse than the right one.

Obviously I'm in a bit of a shock still and probably pretty incoherent from crying, drinking too much red wine (it's after 12 here, so please don't judge me) and reading too many horror stories online about navicular syndrome, but anywho!

I would really appreciate if people on the forum could help me level headely (is that even a word?) help me analyse the situation. Also very helpful if someone themselves have or have had a horse with navicular disease and could tell me about what happened with their horse.

Okay. So, long story short- horse is a four year old ex coldblood trotter from Norway. He was trained but didn't run any races because he was deemed "too slow and lazy" for racing and was broken in and ridden winter -21 and I bought him end of February -22. Rode him very lightly almost exclusively out hacking during spring and then turned him away for the summer and took him back in August to continue his training to become a proper riding horse (light dressage and hacking out, I don't like jumping).
Pretty much from the very start since coming back from being turned away I noticed something was off. He tripped alot, was reluctant to go forward, steering was way off and he appeared just sour and cranky- not like I remember him at all. After a week or two of this when he finally kicked when I put more leg on him I decided that something was really off, put my friend on him so I could have a look and film, saw that he was lame and called the vet.
The vet was a bit unsure since it at first glance it appeared that he was lame both front and back but on flexion tests he only reacted high left and ultrasound also showed a gonitis which we treated with steroids and were told to come back in three weeks to evaluate treatment. So three weeks pass and we come back to the clinic. The horse is now fine in his knee but is lame left front on hard surface. Put on NSAID for a week and told to come back if still lame. One week pass, horse is happy on painkillers, but two-three days after the treatment stopped lame again, this time obviously lame left front and in walk.
Called the clinic monday, got an appointment tuesday morning (today that is). More flexion tests, lunge on hard and soft surface and finally nerve blockades. Blocked navicular left hoof- lameness gone (at this point I was going shit shit shit shit shit in my mind since hoof lameness can mean anything). X-rays; grade 2 navicular diasease plus inflammation on left, grade 1 on right hoof but no inflammation.

By this point I'm standing there tears pouring down my face asking what to do since horse now is diagnosed with a chronic and progressive disease at age four. The vet suggests remedial shoing (with something called Bonapartix shoes?), maybe injections to the navicular bursa if that doesn't help and at a later stage bisfosfanates (Osphos) while assuring me that she's seen far worse navicular disease in competing horses that were helped by this.

Now, maybe I'm a horrible, cynical, cold hearted person who's unfortunately have had my fair share of sick horses that I've had to make the horrible and heart wretching decision to PTS (the last one just one week before I bought this current horse ?), but my initial though was: why even bother? The horse is a four year old, uneducated ex trotter with a chronic and progressive disease that is only bound to eventually become worse no matter what we treat him with. Will I just prolong his suffering? Will the money I spend on shoing at the clinic and treatments and potential supplements be better put into saving for a new horse? I don't know ?

Please help me think rationally. If this was your horse- what would you honestly do?

 

[PurBee]

Sorry about your horse. Before giving up completely, with such a young horse, just this season showing navicular issues, i’d try the barefoot rehab route, with a very good recommended/known barefoot farrier/trimmer.
It has been done, and so i wouldn’t feel so down by the diagnosis without getting the hoof balance and function as best as can be and assess progress/lameness along the journey.

Here’s some info:

https://www.hoofrehab.com/NavicularSyndrome.html

 

[scats]

No help unfortunately but my 12 year old has just been diagnosed with mild navicular (alongside coffin joint arthritis, again very mild). Mine is sound, but I know if I pushed her outside of her ‘comfort zone’ on a regular basis, she may not remain sound.
As for shoeing, have you considered going barefoot? I transitioned to barefoot a couple of months back, when she got her diagnosis, and the difference in her is amazing. She is so much better unshod, much more comfortable in general, happy to go on any surface. She had gotten very sticky and nappy hacking, and even had me off by rearing, but she’s now back to her powering out happily infront of my leg.

I’m sorry to hear about your young horse. In your shoes I would probably give some treatment a go first, but I really would consider trying barefoot. Perhaps see how you get on over the winter and into spring?

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

I would look into barefoot rehab rather than remedial shoes they tend to only work for a whole then your back to square one.

My horse who was 14 at the time had mild changes in the navicular bone and inflammation in the bursa, he had osphos and steroids in both fronts I then left his shoes off and he had 3 months resting in the field.

He was sound so I started riding him again and I've never had any lameness since he no longer has shoes and is comfortable, his 17 now and gets ridden 4 to 5 times a week, I school him mainly as his not great to hack I am careful on hard ground he doesn't jump anymore.

 

[ycbm]

Did your vet at any point tell you that x rays of the navicular bone bear little relationship to lameness and that on MRI most of these horses will turn out to have tendon and/or ligament strain which is recoverable and not progressive?

Hundreds of horses with this diagnosis, including 3 which I have owned have been resolved with a barefot rehab.

See rockleyfarm.blogspot.com

 

[sbloom]

Barefoot is a great option for many and I'm a big fan too, but it's got to be done right, the trim is critical, and the same applies to shoeing options. Have a look at the work of Progressive Equine Services on FB and don't be bundled into eggbars and the same trim that may have contributed to his condition. https://www.euroforgesupplies.com/denoix-reverse-shoe-bonapartix-s-pp/ - Denoix is very well respected but the PES work may be even more interesting/applicable/successful.

I would also look to postural work. Most horses have at least a mild postural issue, I bang on about it all the time for good reason. If you can work on lifting the thoracic sling it takes the pressure off the front feet - I only really like the methods that help the horse learn to move better both while you work with them but also in the field etc, and to that end the Balance Through Movement Method is the ultimate, but there are a few amazing rehabbers around who look at this as a priority, don't use methods such as poles, hillwork, backing up, water treadmills etc before fixing HOW the horse will be able to do these things. If you don't, you simply strengthen the asymmetry and the postural issues as they are.

Having issues with horses is heartbreaking, but we have an epidemic of lameness, we must seek to learn why, and if you can see it as that you will learn a ton, you may well fix this horse for a long and happy life, but if you don't you've grown as a horse owner, awful as it can be.

 

[Elno]

Unfortunaly my horse cannot go barefoot, we tried before. His hood quality doesn't allow it

Did your vet at any point tell you that x rays of the navicular bone bear little relationship to lameness and that on MRI most of these horses will turn out to have tendon and/or ligament strain which is recoverable and not progressive?

Hundreds of horses with this diagnosis, including 3 which I have owned have been resolved with a barefot rehab.

See rockleyfarm.blogspot.com

He's most certainly lame though, and the lameness dissapears when the navicular is blocked and he shows significant changes on x rays, so the causality checks out I'm afraid.

I'm very reluctant to try barefoot on this particular horse because of several reasons unfortunately. So if not remedial shoing will work he will be put down.

 

[SEL]

What breed is the horse? I ask because you said cold blood and my PSSM mare (part bred draft) has a navicular diagnosis despite never being shod. I'm sure for her it is the impact of how she carries herself. She finds it very hard to take her weight onto her hindquarters. We've scanned, x rayed etc and injected her hocks. I know the hocks are ok now because I can do flexion tests with her but there's 'something' going on - presumably muscular related - so her posture isn't great. That's despite regular bodywork and an awful lot of effort on my part.

So could your horse have something else going on which is preventing him carrying himself well?

I'm not entirely on board with barefoot as a cure tbh - except when the horse has been badly shod with under run heels - but I do think there are postural issues at play with many horses who have problems in their forefeet.

 

[j1ffy]

Another here who has had success with barefoot rehab - my horse was 6 when diagnosed.

The hoof quality and soreness is usually directly related to diet. If you get that right, you should find your horse can manage without shoes with no issues.

Here's a blog about my boy at the end of his rehab (he's 17 now and hasn't had a problem since): http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2011/10/small-changes-make-big-differences.html

Also, see here for a different theory on whether 'navicular disease' is degenerative: http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2013/07/surprise-surprisenot-really.html
Most vets here now recognise that 'navicular' is a catch-all term for pain in the palmar hoof (heels). It sounds like your vet is a little outdated in their description of it, but also correct that many horses manage fine with changes with appropriate management.

 

[paddi22]

Unfortunaly my horse cannot go barefoot, we tried before. His hood quality doesn't allow it


He's most certainly lame though, and the lameness dissapears when the navicular is blocked and he shows significant changes on x rays, so the causality checks out I'm afraid.

I'm very reluctant to try barefoot on this particular horse because of several reasons unfortunately. So if not remedial shoing will work he will be put down.

there are ways around it with padding and hoof boots plus correct feed and management. we get all sorts in here to rehab for navicular , including a lot of exracers with crumbling hooves, and all have come sound by going barefoot. even when the owners were told the horses wouldn't cope barefoot. definitely don't write off barefoot. there is fantastic advice available on rockley farm and also on the forum by lots of people who are very experienced in this kind of thing. There are a lot for people (including myself) who were told the horses were a write-off but who came sound after trying barefoot.

 

[sbloom]

Often the horses that "can't" go barefoot are the ones that need hoof rehab the most, usually barefoot. And yes, I have customers who are often told their horse can't go barefoot by the farrier, but they can, and do, with the right transition. But do check out the FB page I mentioned above.

 

[ycbm]

He's most certainly lame though, and the lameness dissapears when the navicular is blocked and he shows significant changes on x rays, so the causality checks out I'm afraid.

The navicular block blocks the entire back of the foot including all the soft tissue that usually causes these foot lameness issues.

To be frank, any vet in these days of MRI scanning diagnosing foot lameness from an x ray which isn't showing a broken bone, and insisting that the bones are the cause, needs to be sent to do some CPD training.

Time and again MRI scans show that it isn't the bones. The other way to prove it has been done in the past. X ray a good number of perfectly sound horses and I've always been told that 50٪ of those will show the same bone changes.

 

[ycbm]

Often the horses that "can't" go barefoot are the ones that need hoof rehab the most, usually barefoot. And yes, I have customers who are often told their horse can't go barefoot by the farrier, but they can, and do, with the right transition. But do check out the FB page I mentioned above.

This, this, this. I owned one. So flat footed and sore without shoes on that he could only have one shoe removed at any one time.

He evented BE Novice barefoot after 9 months.
.

 

[tda]

Often the horses that "can't" go barefoot are the ones that need hoof rehab the most, usually barefoot.

Agree with this. You could go down the remedial farrier route but it would more than likely just be a sticking plaster over the real issue

 

[Red-1]

Unfortunaly my horse cannot go barefoot, we tried before. His hood quality doesn't allow it


He's most certainly lame though, and the lameness dissapears when the navicular is blocked and he shows significant changes on x rays, so the causality checks out I'm afraid.

I'm very reluctant to try barefoot on this particular horse because of several reasons unfortunately. So if not remedial shoing will work he will be put down.

This is a red flag to me. The hoof quality is poor. Surgical shoes won't improve the hoof quality. Poor hoof quality tends to go with weak hooves that can't function as a shock absorber, it is that which needs addressing. Photos of the hooves would help people to advise.

I would start by making sure he is on a barefoot friendly diet, with adequate nutrients. Then take shoes off, using pads/boots/taped on carpet if necessary. My last 5 horses have had some time barefoot, it is the turn of my youngster now. Most of them have no 'issues' at all, it is a break from shoes to prevent issues in most cases. Wearing shoes is akin to having a plaster cast on your leg - however well fitting it is, it restricts your movement / blood flow / ability to move as nature intended. The area that is artificially supported becomes weaker. That is the whole hoof structure, not just the walls.

Surgical shoes provide temporary relief by supporting the foot even more, but the hoof is then able to do even less natural function by virtue of the fact that it is supported like a plaster cast on your leg.

When the shoes come off a compromised foot, the horse is weak and must be managed to overcome the weakness. That means protection and possibly temporarily even less movement until pain is controlled. Once the pain is controlled, movement is your friend to get the hoof functioning as nature intended and strong.

If you have forgiving paddocks, autumn can be a good time to do this, as the ground softens up.

Barefoot is not easy or cheap.

The best one I saw was a horse who had been in surgical shoes for years, on bute and was still lame. Once re-habbed, she was sound and stayed that way. She hacked, jumped, did showing. For her, it was a life saver.

 

[sbloom]

On the other hand https://www.facebook.com/hoofscanan...TKxDWriVmG3qotZCyx2SPFUSXku3w5U2REMtvSqaSmw9l. I think there is so much poor farriery, and universal use of open heeled shoes, that we, understandably, often think that shoeing is always evil. I was pretty much that way for years, but this organisation have changed my mind. They often keep horses barefoot, if not all year then part of the year, as part of an overall management programme.

 

[paddy555]

Barefoot is a great option for many and I'm a big fan too, but it's got to be done right, the trim is critical, and the same applies to shoeing options. Have a look at the work of Progressive Equine Services on FB and don't be bundled into eggbars and the same trim that may have contributed to his condition. https://www.euroforgesupplies.com/denoix-reverse-shoe-bonapartix-s-pp/ - Denoix is very well respected but the PES work may be even more interesting/applicable/successful.

.

PES includes the name PES and hoof care but from what I have seen that is rehab by shoeing not by barefoot. In fact the owner doesn't seem to be that keen on BF to be honest. I agree with "caudal failure" but he doesn't appear to be open to either questions or barefoot.

 

[Elno]

What breed is the horse? I ask because you said cold blood and my PSSM mare (part bred draft) has a navicular diagnosis despite never being shod. I'm sure for her it is the impact of how she carries herself. She finds it very hard to take her weight onto her hindquarters. We've scanned, x rayed etc and injected her hocks. I know the hocks are ok now because I can do flexion tests with her but there's 'something' going on - presumably muscular related - so her posture isn't great. That's despite regular bodywork and an awful lot of effort on my part.

So could your horse have something else going on which is preventing him carrying himself well?

I'm not entirely on board with barefoot as a cure tbh - except when the horse has been badly shod with under run heels - but I do think there are postural issues at play with many horses who have problems in their forefeet.

The breed is called Coldblood Trotter ? There are Swedish and Norwegian types and he's a Norwegian.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavian_coldblood_trotter

It might very well be postural/conformational since he's pretty wonky built on the forehand with a looooong back, but the vets theory is rather that it is the intense trotter training that is the cause of it since they start them in training at 2. The vets also several time mentioned that he has somewhat broken forward pastern axis on all four hooves, so maybe that may be partly to blame, I have no idea ?

I will again have to stress that I will not go barefoot with this horse unless my vet specifically advises me to. She adviced remedial shoing done by a farrier that works together with the vets at the clinic and has special education in remedial shoing so if I decide not to put him down I will do as she suggests.

 

[bluehorse]

I don’t know why you bothered to ask really…you are either going to put remedial shoes on or put him to sleep. You’ve already answered your own question. Poor horse.

 

[paddi22]

I did remedial shoes for years with one of my own horses. And we got to a stage where they were doing more harm than good. He ended up being lame no matter what advice vet and farrier gave. I was going to pts but I posted pics here, got amazing advice, and years down the lines he’s sound 100% of the time and eventing barefoot. Some Vets and farriers can sometimes be stuck doing what they know from the past.

and trotter training generally doesn’t lead to navicular from my experience. I would retrain a lot of trotters with that are very long and high behind and it doesn’t make them any more prone to navicular more than any other horse. Bad farriers and poor hoof quality do the damage from what I can see.

 

[Elno]

I don’t know why you bothered to ask really…you are either going to put remedial shoes on or put him to sleep. You’ve already answered your own question. Poor horse.

Seriously? I'm heartbroken over the fact that my 4 year old has been diagnosed with a chronic and progressive condition and you have the bloody nerve to try to make me feel worse when all I asked for was if people in my place would follow the vets (you know, an actual, educated, medical professional!) advice or PTS. It was not my intention to make this into a shoing vs barefoot thread.

 

[Gloi]

What does the vet say these shoes will do, and how?

 

[paddy555]

Seriously? I'm heartbroken over the fact that my 4 year old has been diagnosed with a chronic and progressive condition and you have the bloody nerve to try to make me feel worse when all I asked for was if people in my place would follow the vets (you know, an actual, educated, medical professional!) advice or PTS. It was not my intention to make this into a shoing vs barefoot thread.

well I'm afraid that that many, having learnt the hard way from experience, would not either follow the vets or PTS. They would resolve the problem by barefoot means.
You asked the question if this was your horse what would you do. I would do the same as many other people here which is deal with the problem through barefoot. I don't buy the argument that the hoof quality doesn't allow barefoot. Been there too many times before.

As for "you know, an actual, educated, medical professional" well I am afraid that many have learnt from experience that as far as this sort of problem goes they may not be the best way forward.

I am very very sorry about your 4 year old horse which must be heartbreaking. I would like him to have the best chance, to me that is rehabbing without shoes. As Gloi says above what does the vet say these shoes will do and how. Many have gone down this vet and remedial shoeing avenue. When the insurance finally runs out that is when they remove them and start making progress.

 

[paddy555]

I think from memory you are in Norway. If so then I would contact Dan and just talk to him about your problem. He may have some insight which could help with your decision. He teaches trimming (yes sadly barefoot) and has a lot of experience. I first met him in 2002 at a trimming clinic so you are looking at 20 years experience of dealing with problems. If you google him you will find his FB page. It may help you or it may not.


Dan Guerrera

Korumdalen

1541 Varteigveien

1894 Rakkestad

Norway

Tel: +47 9931 9035

guerrera.dan@gmail.com

 

[ycbm]

Seriously? I'm heartbroken over the fact that my 4 year old has been diagnosed with a chronic and progressive condition and you have the bloody nerve to try to make me feel worse when all I asked for was if people in my place would follow the vets (you know, an actual, educated, medical professional!) advice or PTS. It was not my intention to make this into a shoing vs barefoot thread.

I'm sorry you have been caused to feel bad but this forum is full of people, including me, who have been told by expert vets and farriers that a horse was not recoverable (3 in my case), who proved those experts wrong with barefoot rehabs.

And your own vet is diagnosing this horse from x rays when it's known that you can't make a caudal hoof lameness diagnosis from x rays unless the bones are shot to pieces.

Forgive us for being sceptical that this horse needs to be put down if remedial shoeing, as it so often does, fails. Two of my successful barefoot rehabs had been remedially shod and failed.
.

 

[Peglo]

My first pony was eventually diagnosed with navicular disease after a long exploration of lameness with her previous owner. (And X-rays confirmed) previous owner decided to move back to Germany and didn’t want to put Peggy through the move again so I took her on knowing I’d only have a few years with her.

I had 2 amazing years ridden as a happy hacker (sorry, barefoot with boots) before I retired her and then a couple of years after that her previous owner asked if she was still alive. That shocked me and I worried I wasn’t noticing her lameness so got the vet out who said she was sound, to take her off the Bute-X and that he’d looked at the old X-ray and said there was a small shadow but that it could’ve been anything. He didn’t think she’d had navicular and was happy with her as she was so I kept her as a most beautiful field ornament and still have her over 18 years after I got her.

whatever made her lame sorted itself with not being ridden. But she had been an endurance pony in Germany so had done a fair bit of work.

I’m not sure this is helpful but I wouldn’t rush into any rash decisions just yet. But I know what a shock it must be to hear they’ve diagnosed him with navicular.

 

[sbloom]

Broken forwards HPA will likely be playing a part, upright boxy hooves will not function optimally, again PES will have some posts on it, though they see much more NPA. Unless your horse is in pain in the pasture, you have time to investigate everything we're talking about. It would be a terrible shame if there is nothing to be learned from the collective experiences of very experienced horse owners that are giving you advice/suggestions. You've acknowledged posture may be playing a part, yet I presume neither vet nor farrier have mentioned this? So...can you also theoretically question that the rest of their advice may not be 100% comprehensive?

Here's some more reading:

https://www.facebook.com/millshorsemanshipandhoofcare
https://www.facebook.com/EncompassEquineSolutions
https://www.facebook.com/Anita.Miles.Animal.Therapy

There are new understandings coming all the time, we cannot expect the GP ("general practitioner" ie like a primary care family doctor) or even most farriers, to have this level of holistic understanding, though we can hope that over time it does become more integrated.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

I wouldn't think the trotting training from 2 years old did the horse any favours either and being shod at that age wouldn't either.

If the horse were mine I would pull the shoes get some hoof boots with pads and leave the horse in a field for a while then see where you are in a few months.

Lady gasgoyne on here has been doing a barefoot rehab on her lame horse she recently purchased the feet were in a terrible state.

Maybe have a look it might give you a bit of hope and inspiration to give it a try after all the horse is only 4.

 

[twiggy2]

OP I am a barefoot advocate and have seen many horses benefit, for those with poor hoof quality or issues it can be a long and slow road, if your not up for that then it is your choice but don't be told it won't work beause the chances are it will.
Diet and movement that the horses can cope with along with correct regular trimming and hoof protection if needed such as boots and pads, walking on various surfaces as the hoof improves are all things that need tk be factored in. For some horses the diet can always be a trigger to sore feet so needs careful management others are not so sensitive.
It can be hard work and very involved but also incredibly rewarding and eye opening.

 

[Birker2020]

I think from memory you are in Norway. If so then I would contact Dan and just talk to him about your problem. He may have some insight which could help with your decision. He teaches trimming (yes sadly barefoot) and has a lot of experience. I first met him in 2002 at a trimming clinic so you are looking at 20 years experience of dealing with problems. If you google him you will find his FB page. It may help you or it may not.


Dan Guerrera

Korumdalen

1541 Varteigveien

1894 Rakkestad

Norway

Tel: +47 9931 9035

guerrera.dan@gmail.com

That's really kind of you to go out of your way to provide this info for the OP, Paddy.

ELNO Its certainly worth a phone call. Try not to take it to heart some of the comments (says she who spends her life doing this) but I really think people are trying to help you, and we are such an impassioned lot that sometimes it comes across a bit blunt. Take it from me that they are trying to help you.