Navicular help & advice

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pachypach

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I have an irish cob, Maya, have had her for two years. She is now 13. When I bought her, she was shod (my farrier said badly, she had very high heels). Anyway I discussed taking off her shoes and going barefoot, and we gave it a try. 2 years later she has good feet, her frogs are large and her hooves in good shape.
My farrier incidentally prefers barefoot and the natural way, and is also training (4 years) to do horse osteopathy. He seems very knowledgeable (I am not, Maya is only my second pony- I had a horsey break for 20 years).
Maya is kept out 24/7 with a field shelter, and I ride her approx 3 times a week (just hacking, country lanes woods etc).

Anyway, about 3 months ago she went lame, a couple of days after my daughter had jumped her in the field (Maya is not used to jumping). The ground had been hard due to lack of rain.
There was no heat or swelling as far as I could see. I thought it may have been a tendon sprain or suchlike, so rested her for a few weeks. The vet came out, did flexion tests etc, and said she wasn’t sure but could be tendon or in shoulder, and to rest her for a few more weeks (gave bute for 5 days, and she became sound, but unsound again off the bute).

Anyway after 3 months, she was still the same, not hobbling lame, (left foreleg) but noticeable anyway, and standing ‘pointing’ her foot.
I wanted to investigate further, so took her yesterday to a vet equipped with xrays etc. he did flexion tests, nerve blocks, then x rayed her fronts.
The x rays showed up anomalies and arthrosis of the distal interphalangeal (coffin) joint.
He diagnosed navicular syndrome (syndrome podotrochliaire in French), and gave her cortisteroid injections in both legs.
(She is benefitting from the injections today as no longer lame, although I know this is just a cover up of the pain and temporary).
He recommended putting on aluminium shoes (reversed) with a rolling effect.

However, I have just spoken to my farrier, who also wants to see the xrays first, and says once we go down the route of shoeing there’s no turning back, and we have come so far with her barefoot.
He says the vets over here (I live in France) mostly recommend remedial shoeing for navicular.
He doesn’t sound very keen to shoe her, and would like to also consult with a colleague (osteo) he knows in case she is out somewhere and it could have an effect on her lameness.

I would like to gain as much information I can before I decide what to do. This is all very new to me (as is keeping horses), so I am on a steep learning curve.
If anyone has any advice, or has been through the same, I would love to hear from you.
Plus any info at all for controlling the pain naturally (I've heard devils claw & boswellia are good?)
many thanks
 
I have a situation ongoing with a similar horse who left me barefoot and after three years has a diagnosis of navicular with significant bone changes. His problem is that, like your horse, he has great strong feet, and with feet like that it is tempting to let the foot grow a "shoe", which it did.

This raised his frog and the back part of his foot off the floor, and it atrophied, eventually leading to him landing toe first, which then damages the deep digital flexor tendon in the foot, and he went for a hooley around the field with weakened feet and now also has collateral ligament damage. If you were to MRI your horse you would almost certainly find soft tissue damage.

Check how your horse is landing - toe first? Flat? Is the frog properly weight bearing or could you slide a ruler under it when your horse is stood on concrete?

If any of those questions are "yes" then you may well be able to fix your mare. She needs to be got so that her frogs are in contact with the floor, and then worked as much as she can tolerate on surfaces which will stimulate the back half of her foot. That will "rebuild" the back of the foot and she will then change, hopefully, to a heel first landing. Once she does this, you are usually well on the way to a cure.

I did one last year. He had been through adequan, tildren, hyaluronic acid and bar shoes and he was still lame. He came sound at around 3 months, which is not uncommon timing, and he has now been sound for over a year in full work.

Look at the website rockleyfarm.co.uk to see what can be done with a mare like yours. Follow "George" in his current rehab on rockleyfarm.blogspot.com because I think your mare's problems will be very similar.

Your farrier sounds like a gem and I am absolutely certain that Nic Barker will talk him through what he should do with your mare if he can ring her from France.
 
Hi thanks for the info.
I have taken some photos tonight of my mares hooves, and the heels do seem a tad high (I think I would be able to get a ruler under the frogs if standing on concrete. They do touch the ground on soft ground though) (The shaved bit on the legs is where they gave her the injections)
Trouble is the farrier trimmed her only 2 weeks ago. I've never looked close enough, well I don't know what I'm looking for! to me (untrained eye) she seems like she has good frogs & shaped feet.
She does look like (I think) she's landing heel first too.
also do you know what sort of pain relief (natural if poss) I can give her once the corticosteroids have worn off? I have some devils claw liquid, can I use this or is there something better?
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Her frog is nowhere near groundbearing and that could easily be the cause of her problems. Can you video her and watch it in slow motion - I'd be surprised if she wasn't toe-first landing but it can be difficult to spot. You need to get down in the dirt to get the video at foot level.

She has a very clear event line one third of the way down her foot. I assume that is from when she went lame?

If your farrier can work at getting those heels down so that her frog is firmly on the floor when she is standing on concrete, you may be able to get her working more comfortably and restore her to soundness. The best way to do the heel height reduction is to have her turned out on a variety of rough but giving surfaces, but very few people have the luxury of such turnout, and for us trimming and work are the only solution.

I would send your pictures to Nic Barker (talk to her or email her first) and ask your farrier to ring her to discuss how to get that frog into use.

ps on the plus side she has fabulous quality feet with tight white lines!
 
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wow! thanks!
I can now see the event line you are talking about., would this equate to about 3 months ago do you think?
would the farrier trim the heels in one go? (I only have field turnout)
My farrier is french, doesnt really speak much english, so I think ringing nic is a no go, although I could do it, but I may not understand what she tells me!
In your opinion would she then become sound again after heel trims and work?
what would happen to the bones she has wear on?
I will ask for the xrays on monday and try and post them up when I have them
 
Her digital cushion looks weak. And a large ARGH from me on rasping the wall....put the rasp down and back away from the hoof!!!

I reacon this would be right up Nic Barker's street at the moment what with her Celery Philosophy......email her the pics;)
 
pachypach said:
wow! thanks!
I can now see the event line you are talking about., would this equate to about 3 months ago do you think?
would the farrier trim the heels in one go? (I only have field turnout)
My farrier is french, doesnt really speak much english, so I think ringing nic is a no go, although I could do it, but I may not understand what she tells me!
In your opinion would she then become sound again after heel trims and work?
what would happen to the bones she has wear on?
I will ask for the xrays on monday and try and post them up when I have them
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The heels need taking down a little at a time to avoid straining the tendons. If you cannot get her onto rough surfaces so she wears them herself then rasping them is your only option. I think she has had too little rasping, not too much, which has allowed her to grow a "shoe" and take the back half of her foot out of proper ground contact. The rasping at the bottom of the foot is just a tidy up of the bottom edge, just cosmetic. The horse George that I told you about has feet which are very similar, and his problem was also too little wear through work, and not enough trimming to keep his frog in contact with the floor.

Minimal trimming, and a horse that balances its own feet is an ideal we all strive for, but if we cannot achieve it, and have a horse like yours and George who have such strong feet that they grow a shoe, then we have no option but to trim it to simulate the wear pattern of a horse in harder work.

The bone damage showing on xray cannot in any way be relied upon. If you xray 100 sound horses, something like 50 of them will show bone changes and never be lame. Research has shown that the lameness is much, much more likely to be due to soft tissue damage, and if that is the case then she has a very good chance of being got sound again.

I suggest you start and email conversation with Nic, which will allow you time to read each other's messages, to get over the language barrier.
 
Here are two of the xrays (I can't upload any more for some reason.
I have sent them to my farrier, and await his advice...

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I tried e-mailing Rockley Farm several times regarding my horses lameness problems and never ever had a reply. I think they are too busy to deal with people for advice. Maybe they should set up a consultancy fee system for people who are far away from there?

I hope you have some luck with Maya.
 
They've often had Internet problems in the past and there was a long while where their email was down.

If in doubt, either ring or use the uknhcp forum to alert her to a message.
 
I cant imagine Nic not getting back to you at some point.

As Oberon said, they often have internet problems as she lives in the middle of nowhere so as O suggested, you should try calling or messaging via UKNCHP forum
 
Nakipa said:
I tried e-mailing Rockley Farm several times regarding my horses lameness problems and never ever had a reply. I think they are too busy to deal with people for advice. Maybe they should set up a consultancy fee system for people who are far away from there?

I hope you have some luck with Maya.
Click to expand...

Ditto what has been said, Nic would have got back to you if she'd got your email but there have been ongoing problems with the ISP.

There's a facebook page aswell so if you message from there, it won't get lost if there a problem.
 
pachypach said:
Here are two of the xrays (I can't upload any more for some reason.
I have sent them to my farrier, and await his advice...

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These aren't shots that are used in this country to diagnose navicular syndrome, which are normally taken with the navicular bone across the shot. I can't see anything much except that P3, the big one, is in about the right place. The joint spaces look clean to me, but I wouldn't know what coffin joint arthrosis looks like, perhaps we will get Alsiola on to tell us what she can see. You can, on the first one, see how far off the floor her frog is, and how little it can be helping to support her foot, which could easily account for why she became lame. If it can be brought into work then I would expect there to be a pretty good chance of her coming sound unless there is something blindingly obvious on those xrays that I'm not seeing.
 
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I agree with what cptrayes has posted. I do think that the heels are marginally high which is taking the frog off the ground and not allowing further development of the digital cushion, which I also agree looks weak.

My own solution for this sort of circumstance, is to lightly rasp about 3 times a week.

I only ever rasp the hoof on the points where it is in contact with the ground and would in ideal conditions be where natural wearing would occur like the heel, therefore I never touch the hoof wall, or anywhere that would not wear down naturally.

Where horses are seen on a 6 week or 8 week rota by the trimmer or farrier, I think this is too long a period, if natural wear does not take place. A horse with good strong feet quickly grows itself a shoe which then leads to the problems described.

It is far better that the farrier or trimmer has little or nothing to do on their visit, rather than a major rasp putting right a months excessive growth.
 
Update....
Farrier came out today with the étiopath.
She did alot of gentle manipulations (took over an hour).
Maya was stiff basically all over, but especially nearside fore and offside rear areas. Plus area at top of neck/head.
anyway after discussions, we have decided to get back to basics, ie, no feed or supplements (she only had a cpl of handfulls of lucerne chaff to mix msm & glucosamine supps in), plus hay if no grass to speak of (grazing area is only small).
farrier is coming in 2 weeks to trim again.
Maya was alot more willing this afternoon when I took her down the lane in hand.
Now going to start a gentle increasing exercise program for her....
:)
 
Me again with an update......
Maya has been sound since end of July. she had adequan injections IM in august for her arthritis. the farrier has been doing regular trims, and I've been taking her out in hand or riding her in walk every other day ish since september.
However, yesterday she went lame again.
Would this be because the corticosteroids have now worn off (done end july)?
she is lame today, so I called into the vets and have a 12 days course of equipalazone (bute).
I will ring my horse vet in a week if there's no improvement, but last time the bute helped (before we knew it was navicular).
not sure what to do to go forward now, if she is still lame in 12 days.
she is still barefoot, and her frogs are now ground bearing and wide.
she is landing heel first (not today though on the bad foot!)
can anyone advise?
I dont want to go down the rolled toe back to front shoes the vet recommended in the beginning if I don't have to, but I dont want a retired horse at age 13 if I can help it, neither do I want her to be in any pain.
Is bute ok to give long term?
 
Bear in mind that navicular syndrome is very often the catch-all when vets cannot find another cause for the lameness. From what you say has happened prior to the lameness I would doubt that it is navicular - and it isn't obvious in the x-rays which is why I am guessing your vet is hedging his bets.

I would tend to agree with your farrier. Try the barefoot approach first. My guess would be that her lameness is more to do with the arthritis. Once you find a method to successfully manage that she should be much more comfortable.

I wouldn't give bute longterm as it will cause liver damage. There are other products on the market such as no-bute, as well as other herbal remedies which some people tell me are very effective. Diet can also have an effect.
 
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classicalfan said:
I wouldn't give bute longterm as it will cause liver damage. There are other products on the market such as no-bute, as well as other herbal remedies which some people tell me are very effective. Diet can also have an effect.
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It "can" cause liver damage, rather than it "will". There are thousands of horses who live on it for years with no noticeable ill effects and it is a good solution for many if you do not want a lame horse put down and diet and alternative therapies are not effective.
 
pachypach said:
Me again with an update......
Maya has been sound since end of July. she had adequan injections IM in august for her arthritis. the farrier has been doing regular trims, and I've been taking her out in hand or riding her in walk every other day ish since september.
However, yesterday she went lame again.
Would this be because the corticosteroids have now worn off (done end july)?
she is lame today, so I called into the vets and have a 12 days course of equipalazone (bute).
I will ring my horse vet in a week if there's no improvement, but last time the bute helped (before we knew it was navicular).
not sure what to do to go forward now, if she is still lame in 12 days.
she is still barefoot, and her frogs are now ground bearing and wide.
she is landing heel first (not today though on the bad foot!)
can anyone advise?
I dont want to go down the rolled toe back to front shoes the vet recommended in the beginning if I don't have to, but I dont want a retired horse at age 13 if I can help it, neither do I want her to be in any pain.
Is bute ok to give long term?
Click to expand...

Is this lameness related or could it be an abcess?

It's difficult to say without seeing the horse in person. Can you post pics of the hooves? Ground and sole view?

Has she consistently been heel first landing before?

I also agree that long term bute is usually fine, especially when it's under veterinary instruction.
 
hi dont think its an abcess, no heat etc or anything on sole etc.
also they are the same symptoms as earlier in the summer.
cant comment about whether she landed heel first before all this happened, as it has been a steep learning curve for me, having not owned a horse for 25 years!
she is heel first now though.
will try and get some pics taken of hooves soon....
 
Santa Paws said:
It "can" cause liver damage, rather than it "will". There are thousands of horses who live on it for years with no noticeable ill effects and it is a good solution for many if you do not want a lame horse put down and diet and alternative therapies are not effective.
Click to expand...

Sorry, but it will cause liver damage. The liver is unable to process the toxin it produces and it stores it. Because it cannot be eliminated it has an accumulative effect and impairs liver function. Over the long term the damage is indisputable. However, each horse is different and many cope with the impairment to liver function very well.
 
classicalfan said:
Sorry, but it will cause liver damage. The liver is unable to process the toxin it produces and it stores it. Because it cannot be eliminated it has an accumulative effect and impairs liver function. Over the long term the damage is indisputable. However, each horse is different and many cope with the impairment to liver function very well.
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OK, be pedantic then :). It "will" cause liver damage but in the majority of cases this damage will be absolutely unnoticeable to the horse, the owner and the vet and can only be identified once the horse is dead and its liver is cut apart.

Happy now :) ?


ps I can't find a single site on Google which says "will", I can only find multiple veterinary articles which say "can" and "may". Are you a vet? Can you point me to the research that says liver damage on long term low doses of bute is inevitable?? Ta.
 
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Santa Paws said:
OK, be pedantic then :). It "will" cause liver damage but in the majority of cases this damage will be absolutely unnoticeable to the horse, the owner and the vet and can only be identified once the horse is dead and its liver is cut apart.

Happy now :) ?


ps I can't find a single site on Google which says "will", I can only find multiple veterinary articles which say "can" and "may". Are you a vet? Can you point me to the research that says liver damage on long term low doses of bute is inevitable?? Ta.
Click to expand...


:)Have PMd you.

If you have Googled it you will also, no doubt, be aware that it can also cause renal failure, gastric ulcers, intestinal lesians, to name only a few!
 
So.....besides all that about the bute.....:o
how can I help my pony to be happier and not lame, bearing in mind she is barefoot already.....
 
Sorry!:o
It's difficult to give you any advice without knwoing what is causing the current lameness. It may not be navicular related, arthritis related, abscess related, or bruising to the sole. It could come from higher up or further back. So many possibilities. Odd question, but are you able to describe how she is lame? And how lame is she?
 
hi thanks
she is the same lame as when she started with the navicular.
about 30% lame front nearside leg, plus pointing it when at rest.
I 'd assumed it was to do with the navicular, and that the steroids injections she had in july had worn off, but I suppose she could have slipped or something in the field (not much mud though). there's no heat, swelling anywhere either.
ie. nothing visible.
I suppose it could be her arthritis kicking in now weather is damp.
she had a course of 7 IM adequan injections at end of august, and they seemed to help alot with general stiffness etc.
she had bute yesterday, just been up to the field today to give her another dose, and she seems about 10% lame, so bute is working (this was the same as we did before she had the navi xrays).
 
If you palpate at the juction of the knee (at teh back) is there any soft swelling? Might be tiny, by the way.
Plus, here is some info you may find useful
http://www.ivis.org/proceedings/SIVE/2005/free_com/Sabate.pdf
Plus, have been told that some herbal remedies are very effective, however, admit to not having studied them in depth but theoretically there is no reason they
 
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