Navicular horse sore after trim

[catembi]

I have asked about this in the navicular barefoot rehab group on FB but some of the people on there are slightly scarey so I am asking again on here!

My boy has sidebone & navicular changes on xray. I have the xrays but have no idea how bad they are as the vets who were supposed to give me an opinion before the time was up to return the horse simply wouldn't bother to return my calls. He failed the vet on 4/10 lame in front, lunged on a circle on concrete. I thought that there was something else going on, despite the xrays, so didn't return him & it transpired that he had a long running abscess in that foot. B/f since the end of Feb, sound since the abscess resolved.

Anyway, he was trimmed early Monday morning. The farrier is pro barefoot and imho does a good job. The feet are not (as far as I can tell) too short. He did not touch the sole and barely touched the frog, but on Monday evening in the school the horse was definitely sore and didn't want to trot. Ditto Tuesday & Wednesday - we only did a few minutes in walk so I could see how he was. Then on Thurs morning he had raging cellulitis so we are now dealing with that rather than soundness.

I don't think he has particularly thin soles. My hardstanding is limestone & my other TB picks his way across it very gingerly but Thor just marches over it. I wonder whether it's the angle change...we are trying to grow the heel and shorten the toe but very gradually. Could it be that? We also had a conv about the bars - the farrier says he leaves them (which he has done) as they should be load bearing. Half the FB commentators agreed; half thought he should be burned at the stake...

I have post trim photos if helpful and also some not very good pre trim. All ideas appreciated as I am puzzled.

 

[ycbm]

navicular changes on xray. I have the xrays but have no idea how bad they are as the vets who were supposed to give me an opinion before the time was up to return the horse simply wouldn't bother to return my calls.

Navicular xrays are notorious for bearing little relationship to whether a horse is sound or not.
.

 

[PurBee]

The debate about bars forever rages on!
Sometimes bars need to be allowed to be stocky and well grown as they usually grow like mad if the heels are compromised in some way, they act like secondary support for the heel. My gelding blew an abscess on one front heel, and the growth of the bar to add support while that heel disintegrated was amazing. If i followed a ‘bars need always trimming’ approach, my boy would have been sore. I left the bar big while the heel growth came back strong, then trimmed the bar after adequate heel growth had completed.

My mare is prone to bars growing bent causing heel footiness, and the relief of her stride by the removal of a mere 2mm folded over is evident.

So each hoof needs assessing individually, as to whether it needs longer bars or not. They cripple some and help others.

I recall reading a Ramey article where he mentions leaving some bar protrusion on horses based in mud, as they act like ‘brakes’ offering some friction to prevent slipping.

Bars bent over are not supporting the heel much structurally, but may well be supporting and growing over a thin sole….so again, the individual case,imo, determines how the bars should be.

My thin soled mare would be footy if walls taken flat to sole - when she came to me at the time her foot was very long toe so was backing up the toe - i soon learnt to back up the toe, but keep a few mm extra wall length everywhere else for her to stride off happy. I wonder if your farrier has taken the walls just a bit too short?

 

[catembi]

@PurBee, thank you for taking the trouble to write all that! Incredibly helpful and summarises my confusion exactly! His bars are bent over and untrimmed and I am totally unsure whether this is correct or whether they are causing a painful pressure point! I will find the photos.

 

[catembi]

We have got a stronger hoof growing in…visible event line. Maybe the walls are too short, as you said?

 

[ycbm]

So each hoof needs assessing individually, as to whether it needs longer bars or not. They cripple some and help others.

Spot on. Take them off and see if he's better and if not, leave them alone in future, is my recipe.
.

 

[GinaGeo]

If he’s trimmed the rest of the hoof, but left the bars there’s every chance he’s sore because they weren’t weight bearing and now they are. They can bruise dreadfully and leaving them untrimmed can result in abscesses.

 

[catembi]

A very good point about xrays vs pain as well. I first wanted him as he had very big, loose paces. He doesn't stand like a navicular horse or move like one - unless he's sore after a trim - so I was very surprised when the xrays showed changes. I would have bet a year's wages against it judging by how he moves, hence keeping him as I thought the lameness had another cause.

He is without a doubt my favourite out of all the horses I have ever owned, including Catembi. I want him to stay sound & in work more than anything, but I don't know what to do as I don't know if the xrays are relevant or a red herring. I have been using an Assisi loop (PEMF) religiously, doing one foot am & one pm, but PEMF will also clear up abscesses, so I am unsure whether he's sound just because the abscess has resolved or because the Assisi is settling any navicular inflammation. I am also saving up for an FMBs system which is a slightly more powerful type of PEMF, but it is completely impossible to know whether he needs it! It's £2,600, and worth it if it keeps him sound but totally NOT worth it if the initial lameness was 100% down to the abscess. Aaarrgghhh...! I so much want to do the right thing, but there is no way of finding out what that is. Even an MRI would only show what the structures look like, not whether any changes are actually bothering him!

 

[PurBee]

We have got a stronger hoof growing in…visible event line. Maybe the walls are too short, as you said?

To see if walls are too short would really prefer to see a underneath sideways shot - you point the camera across the plane of the hoof - it would also show height of frog, height of heel to bars etc.

The last pic posted - the bar to our left viewing the pic (with bit of fibre stuck in) looks very problematic - its structurally bent and curved right over pushing the outer hoof wall growth out with it - and it looks to be cracking/breaking at the base ?- which would be very uncomfortable for the horse.

I cant tell the height of the heel from those 2 facing shots, but if its level with the bar i can see how its possible the horse to be tender.
That bar needs to be much closer to the frog and is curving way out there towards hoof wall. The same pathology going on with the other foot - 1 bar worse than the other on each foot causing the hoof wall to push out.

Pictures are hard to work-off and really see, only hoof in hand is the way - my mare had curvy bars and i spotted a slight fine crack one time half way along causing stress point and tenderness…bringing that bar right down so it wasnt twisting the crack helped hugely.
Its amazing how a tiny tweak can help so much or hinder so much.

 

[catembi]

Thank you - I can see what you mean. I will mention it next time and say that he's been sore and just ask if we can try something different and see what happens. I suffer badly from corns, getting that 'stone in shoe' feeling, & I was imagining that an overgrown bar might feel like that for a horse. The farrier seems so confident that what he's doing is right, but if the horse is saying otherwise...

 

[PurBee]

If you can push down with fingers hard onto the bars and he flinches or pulls foot away, then its a good sign the bars are the sore issue. Sometimes they get used to the discomfort and wont flinch without hoof-tester pressure, but sometimes very firm finger pressure can elicit a response in a very tender area.

As gina said, if the bars are pronounced and the walls taken down, much more pressure are on the bars and judging by the shape of them, the pressure is curved and sideways too. Bars are hoof wall construction with their own white line etc - so if theyre leaning too far adrift proper position and too long, its not dis-similar from a hoof with severe flaring not rasped down and being pulled with every step. Except with the bars they can get crushed, and split, due to being forced sideways onto sole.

without a sideways underneath shot its not possible to see heights of bars/frogs/walls - its worth asking your trimmer to return and deal with the bars if the horse wasn't footy before this particular trim.

 

[catembi]

@PurBee, I have done a photo... I did one of the other foot but it wasn't very good.

I also spoke to the new vet about the xrays done by the old vet which I couldn't get them to discuss with me. (Wouldn't return the phone calls before my time was up to return the horse.) The verdict is that the sidebone is very slight & as he's already 10, probably isn't going to be a problem as apparently it's likely to be stable now. Like an old splint? I.e. it's probably finished being active. Re the navicular - he says that if he's sound now, which he was before the cellulitis, then he is probably one of those horses with dodgy xrays who's not going to be correspondingly lame, so to crack on.

 

[PurBee]

I cant see the front wall/sole toe area clearly because its out of focus, so cant comment on the toe walls clearly from that shot. Your camera is focusing on the heel bulbs rather than hoof plane unfortunately. But it gives some possible clues if im seeing what i think im seeing.

The bars look higher from the angle of this shot - with the left heel wall slightly lower than right wall - looking at the pic view - that left bar is also more pronounced above wall than right bar.
The right heel looks cracked at the base from an abscess?

Because right heel/wall is slightly higher than left the step is a bit wonky - but primarily the discomfort is likely coming from the protruding bars above hoof wall plane. You’ll be able to tell better hoof in hand.

i made some scribbles on your pic to show better - i know the bars arent wildly visually much higher but enough mm higher to be engaging with ground before hoof wall engages (and bend if theyre a distorted shape), footiness, gingerly stepping would account for this. Green dash line shows roughly where i would take bars to, to be same height as walls and engage equally. (If the red curves drawn are bars and not just visual anomalies or lumps of mud!) :

 

[catembi]

Thank you so much! Yes that’s where he had an abscess which is why he was lame to start with. Everything you have said is really useful! The farrier is a young, forward thinking chap who really does seem (from conversation…) to know what he’s doing, so it’s frustrating to have to learn to be the expert myself when that’s what I am paying him to do…!

I can fully understand why Thor would be lame from walking on the bars. He is 17hh and very solid for a TB so that’s also a lot of weight. But I specifically had a conversation with the farrier about bars!!! Aaarrrggghhh who can you trust!

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

I have asked about this in the navicular barefoot rehab group on FB but some of the people on there are slightly scarey so I am asking again on here!

My boy has sidebone & navicular changes on xray. I have the xrays but have no idea how bad they are as the vets who were supposed to give me an opinion before the time was up to return the horse simply wouldn't bother to return my calls. He failed the vet on 4/10 lame in front, lunged on a circle on concrete. I thought that there was something else going on, despite the xrays, so didn't return him & it transpired that he had a long running abscess in that foot. B/f since the end of Feb, sound since the abscess resolved.

Anyway, he was trimmed early Monday morning. The farrier is pro barefoot and imho does a good job. The feet are not (as far as I can tell) too short. He did not touch the sole and barely touched the frog, but on Monday evening in the school the horse was definitely sore and didn't want to trot. Ditto Tuesday & Wednesday - we only did a few minutes in walk so I could see how he was. Then on Thurs morning he had raging cellulitis so we are now dealing with that rather than soundness.

I don't think he has particularly thin soles. My hardstanding is limestone & my other TB picks his way across it very gingerly but Thor just marches over it. I wonder whether it's the angle change...we are trying to grow the heel and shorten the toe but very gradually. Could it be that? We also had a conv about the bars - the farrier says he leaves them (which he has done) as they should be load bearing. Half the FB commentators agreed; half thought he should be burned at the stake...

I have post trim photos if helpful and also some not very good pre trim. All ideas appreciated as I am puzzled.

I have two Navicular horses. both shod with pads and dental putty.


Not a farrier or trimmer - but looking at those feet I would get a second opinion, balance does does not look right. Can make all the difference to a Navi horse

 

[Highmileagecob]

The tight area between the heels needs to open and drop, if that makes sense. This will allow the heels to act as shock absorbers instead of being clamped together. Entirely possible there is a little thrush in the cavity: wash the heels with soap and water, dry off and spray with 1% iodine. After starting this you may find that the frog starts to peel as any residual thrush tracks are eliminated. Using boots with a frog pad will boost circulation in that area, and should help to make him more comfortable.

 

[catembi]

Farrier is coming back to address the bars issue. In one photo the foot looks slightly damp but it’s because he had trodden in a wee. I used Red Horse products regularly and the feet are usually lovely and dry ?