Navicular - I'm not convinced

Jive Master

Jive Master

Well-Known Member
Joined
15 October 2014
Messages
129
Visit site
Okay so I have a 16 yr old Cleveland Bay, I have had him for around 6 months. He was purchased as a happy hacker, I was told that he had been diagnosed with Navicular in 2008 after Left Fore lameness in a dressage test. He has been sound ever since, other than some similar lameness once after continual small circles. I have looked through all vets bills etc. that came with him and can only find reference to a Foot exam - was negative, an In-hand & Lunge exam - totally Sound & an Xray on Left Fore Foot/Pastern (no record of outcome). There appears to be no evidence of him having any nerve blockers which I was sure was the only way to diagnose Navicular.? He may be 16 but he is showing no signs of slowing down..!! My farrier is not convinced he has navicular & my vet is also sceptical but without paying £1000s for test we can't be sure..

He used to be a level x-country competitor, I have no intention of doing this with him however I am considering the odd jump with him at home (nothing more than 2ft) but am unsure due to this Navicular looming over him..

Can anybody give me their thoughts.? Any experiences with Navicular & small jumps.? Also anybody who has experience with navicular, if he was to go lame how long on average does it take to come sound.?

As I say he is not ready to retire any time soon & I certainly don't want to push him into early retirement.!!

Sorry it's so long & if you still with me, Thankyou :D xx
 
Jive Master said:
Okay so I have a 16 yr old Cleveland Bay, I have had him for around 6 months. He was purchased as a happy hacker, I was told that he had been diagnosed with Navicular in 2008 after Left Fore lameness in a dressage test. He has been sound ever since, other than some similar lameness once after continual small circles. I have looked through all vets bills etc. that came with him and can only find reference to a Foot exam - was negative, an In-hand & Lunge exam - totally Sound & an Xray on Left Fore Foot/Pastern (no record of outcome). There appears to be no evidence of him having any nerve blockers which I was sure was the only way to diagnose Navicular.? He may be 16 but he is showing no signs of slowing down..!! My farrier is not convinced he has navicular & my vet is also sceptical but without paying £1000s for test we can't be sure..

He used to be a level x-country competitor, I have no intention of doing this with him however I am considering the odd jump with him at home (nothing more than 2ft) but am unsure due to this Navicular looming over him..

Can anybody give me their thoughts.? Any experiences with Navicular & small jumps.? Also anybody who has experience with navicular, if he was to go lame how long on average does it take to come sound.?

As I say he is not ready to retire any time soon & I certainly don't want to push him into early retirement.!!

Sorry it's so long & if you still with me, Thankyou :D xx
Click to expand...

Navicular is a really broad term. Get a set of x rays? If there are no changes to the bone that are blatantly obvious crack on? There are people on here with far more knowledge than me but it may be that he no longer has "navicular" if his feet have improved etc...
 
Okay may try and get my vet to contact the old one.. I have him on biotin & seaweed daily just in case but like I said I'm not convinced he does have it. Thankyou
 
In 2008 everyone thought navicular was a bone disease. Through MRI, it's now known that almost every case is actually a tendon or ligament strain inside the foot. Those injuries can be fixed, and if your horse is not lame and not on medication or in special shoes, then he's fixed.
 
ycbm said:
In 2008 everyone thought navicular was a bone disease. Through MRI, it's now known that almost every case is actually a tendon or ligament strain inside the foot. Those injuries can be fixed, and if your horse is not lame and not on medication or in special shoes, then he's fixed.
Click to expand...

He has rolled toes on his front shoes purely because thats what I was told he has been in due to the 'Navicular'.
 
Jive Master said:
Haven't really checked how he lands to be honest, and no he is fully shod.
Click to expand...

that's how you'll know if he has navicular/is likely to get it. Trot him up on a flat hard surface and see if he lands heel first or toe first. Some people video the horse and then do a slow motion as it's easier to see. A toe first landing puts extra stress on the tendons and ligaments and eventually leads to navicular syndrome.

As an aside, horses weren't traditionally shod all year round, they had a break from shoes when off work for winter. If he hasn't had a break from shoes for a while it would be a good idea to give him one, perhaps next winter. This enables the sole to thicken and the frog and lateral cartilages to receive more stimulation.
 
The navicular is a bone in the foot.

Classic Navicular disease presented as a lame horse with a boxy hoof, and it was considered pretty much progressive.

However "navicular syndrome" is rather broader.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navicular_syndrome

I think I might want to x ray the area, for comparison purposes in the future, but if not lame and there are no other symptoms, that is probably as far as I would go. Your vet is the expert. Ask your vet if X rays would be useful, they won't be £1000's, maybe you are thinking about other scans for soft tissue.
Check the hooves for warmth every day, they should all be the same temperature and remain the same every day. Ask vet to show you how to check lower limbs, this is good practice for every horse owner.
P.S. seaweed is considered too high in iron for horses, better use a broad mineral mix designed for horses.
 
Last edited:
Palindrome said:
that's how you'll know if he has navicular/is likely to get it. Trot him up on a flat hard surface and see if he lands heel first or toe first. Some people video the horse and then do a slow motion as it's easier to see. A toe first landing puts extra stress on the tendons and ligaments and eventually leads to navicular syndrome.

As an aside, horses weren't traditionally shod all year round, they had a break from shoes when off work for winter. If he hasn't had a break from shoes for a while it would be a good idea to give him one, perhaps next winter. This enables the sole to thicken and the frog and lateral cartilages to receive more stimulation.
Click to expand...

Okay thanks, I will test this out tomorrow. :) x
 
Bonkers2 said:
The navicular is a bone in the foot.

Classic Navicular disease presented as a lame horse with a boxy hoof, and it was considered pretty much progressive.

However "navicular syndrome" is rather broader.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navicular_syndrome
I think I might want to x ray the area, for comparison purposes in the future, but if not lame and there are no other symptoms, that is probably as far as I would go. Your vet is the expert.

P.S. seaweed is considered too high in iron for horses, better use a broad mineral mix designed for horses.
Click to expand...

Okay may look in to x-rays then, He has apparently been on it since diagnosis, It's an equimins product - Scandinavian seaweed. Didn't want to stop it as I was worried about 'upsetting' his feet.
 
Jive Master said:
Okay may look in to x-rays then, He has apparently been on it since diagnosis, It's an equimins product - Scandinavian seaweed. Didn't want to stop it as I was worried about 'upsetting' his feet.
Click to expand...
You can phone up equimins, I expect they will say equimins original, around 2008 seaweed was "all the rage"
I might phase out the bioton, feed micronsed linseed and some salt. No molasses/licks.
DO NOT TROT ON HARD SURFACES SUCH AS ROADS ESP WITH SHOES, SHOES INCREASE CONCUSSION COMPARED TO BAREFOOT.
 
Last edited:
Bonkers2 said:
You can phone up equimins, I expect they will say equimins original, around 2008 seaweed was "all the rage"
Click to expand...

Okay thanks, I've got their brochure so I'll take a look then give them a call Monday. Is it worth keeping up his supplements if I'm not sure about the navicular..?
 
Last edited:
If he is sound and fit enough there is no reason not to consider a few small jumps. "Navicular" is a catch all phrase that basically means pain at the back of the foot, even x rays might not help as bony changes don't correlate very well to degree of lameness or prognosis.
And to make yourself feel better have a watch of some "navicular" horses messing around on hard, rutted ground (for the record filming took all day and they were all sound afterwards) https://vimeo.com/106403422
 
Jive Master said:
Okay thanks, I've got their brochure so I'll take a look then give them a call Monday. Is it worth keeping up his supplements if I'm not sure about the navicular..?
Click to expand...

Yes a well fed horse [not a fat horse] is less likely to need vet attention. Minerals are not really supplements they are an essential part of his diet,
Micronised linseed is an oil rich source of energy, more part of his feed, it is a source of slow release energy, adds condition, also improves skin, hoof and hair.
Horses need plenty of fibre and this is why we feed ad lib hay or haylage, but they do not need a high sugar diet, so we reduce molasses and try not to let them gorge on too much grass.

The fibre is digested in his stomach and moves through the intestine continually, the stomach is small for a large animal [think rugby ball] so he needs a constant supply of food [trickle feeding]

What is he getting day to day?
 
Last edited:
Polonaise said:
If he is sound and fit enough there is no reason not to consider a few small jumps. "Navicular" is a catch all phrase that basically means pain at the back of the foot, even x rays might not help as bony changes don't correlate very well to degree of lameness or prognosis.
And to make yourself feel better have a watch of some "navicular" horses messing around on hard, rutted ground (for the record filming took all day and they were all sound afterwards) https://vimeo.com/106403422
Click to expand...

Thankyou, it's really made me feel more confident that I'm not going to 'break' him :) He absolutely loved his x-country & seeing him unable to jump alongside my others is quite saddening :(
 
Bonkers2 said:
Yes a well fed horse [not a fat horse] is less likely to need vet attention. Minerals are not really supplements they are an essential part of his diet,
Micronised linseed is an oil rich source of energy, more part of his feed, it is a source of slow release energy, adds condition, also improves skin, hoof and hair.
Horses need plenty of fibre and this is why we feed ad lib hay or haylage, but they do not need a high sugar diet, so we reduce molasses and try not to let them gorge on too much grass.

The fibre is digested in his stomach and moves through the intestine continually, the stomach is small for a large animal [think rugby ball] so he needs a constant supply of food [trickle feeding]

What is he getting day to day?
Click to expand...

He currently has 2kg of horse & pony nuts, 200gms ultra grass, biotin (recommended amount), Scandinavian seaweed (again recommended amount), Brewers yeast (winter only), Vegi oil. He then has 2 large haynets a night (usually some left so i know its enough), same if he is stabled in the day & sometimes a large bucket of ultra grass.
 
Bonkers2 said:
You can phone up equimins, I expect they will say equimins original, around 2008 seaweed was "all the rage"
I might phase out the bioton, feed micronsed linseed and some salt. No molasses/licks.
DO NOT TROT ON HARD SURFACES SUCH AS ROADS ESP WITH SHOES, SHOES INCREASE CONCUSSION COMPARED TO BAREFOOT.
Click to expand...

He is regularly trotted on hard surfaces, has been for the last 4 years..
 
Jive Master said:
He is regularly trotted on hard surfaces, has been for the last 4 years..
Click to expand...

Well don't do it in future! It is the worse thing you can do. Regular walking on roads is good for hardening ligaments.

I had a look at equimins they do have plenty of supplements including Diamond something, it is an expensive way of buying linseed and minerals, but it might replace the other things you are supplementing, worth a try if they recommend it.
Pony nuts will have some basic minerals but not the extra ones found in a more targetted product.
If you decide to remove the shoes you may have to tweak the diet to remove molasses, but just keep going for the moment, replacing seaweed, biotin, oil and yeast etc with one product.
 
Last edited:
Bonkers2 said:
Well don't do it in future! It is the worse thing you can do. Regular walking on roads is good for hardening ligaments.

I had a look at equimins they do have plenty of supplements including Diamond something, it is an expensive way of buying linseed and minerals, but it might replace the other things you are supplementing, worth a try if they recommend it.
Pony nuts will have some basic minerals but not the extra ones found in a more targetted product.
If you decide to remove the shoes you may have to tweak the diet to remove molasses, but just keep going for the moment, replacing seaweed, biotin, oil and yeast etc with one product.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry but you've lost me. If he isn't lame and hasn't been (other than once on tight circles) since 2008 but regularly trots on roads why should I stop this.? How can I expect him to walk when the others are trotting.. We aren't convinced he has navicular and the whole point of this thread was because I am unhappy 'slowing him down' as such. I want him to be able to do the things my others do and not be singled out if he doesnt need to be.. if I can't trot him on roads then how can I expect to put him over a few jumps.? I am grateful for your help and time thankyou, but I feel it is unfair to stop him trotting as he loves it, as well as a nice canter (obviously not on roads but the ground could still be hard). He is always pushing to do more and we are currently holding him back because this word navicular is looming over him..
 
Polonaise said:
If he is sound and fit enough there is no reason not to consider a few small jumps. "Navicular" is a catch all phrase that basically means pain at the back of the foot, even x rays might not help as bony changes don't correlate very well to degree of lameness or prognosis.
And to make yourself feel better have a watch of some "navicular" horses messing around on hard, rutted ground (for the record filming took all day and they were all sound afterwards) https://vimeo.com/106403422
Click to expand...

Thankyou that video has made me feel better with trying him over a few small cross poles. He is definitely still fit enough so I'm going to hack out today and take him in the arena tomorrow, he is going to love it..!! He does everything with my ex-racer (an ex hurdler) & im doing some small jumps with him tomorrow for the first time since retiring with a tendon injury, so I'm hoping they will have a great time together :D x
 
Jive Master said:
If he isn't lame and hasn't been (other than once on tight circles).
Click to expand...

When mine starting having problems he was only lame on tight circles but it was an indication of what was going on underneath. He would soon go hopping lame if you upped the work too much.

In your position I would do 2 things

1) Do some detective work to see what can find out about the initial diagnosis. Was it X rays, MRI etc. Some vets use the word navicular in quite a vague way but if he was loss of use, I would have thought more investigation was done and there may be a more accurate diagnosis out there.
2) Get a good equine vet out to assess his soundness. Sometimes if they are lame in both feet, it isn't very noticeable except on a circle until you nerve block and then you see
 
Maybe someone like your vet and your farrier will explain about concussion. The more you trot on roads the more the concussion.

I worked in a national hunt training yard for several years, and absolutely no one was allowed to trot on roads or on hard tracks. I was at a vet talk some time ago and the farrier, Jim Ferrie F.W.C.F., threw in a comment re lameness, "don't trot on roads ....... concussion...... longevity", this is the first time I have ever heard anyone mention this in a public forum, yet it is fundamental.
I never trot on roads unless I am in company (peer pressure), I always walk on roads to harden ligaments, and hopefully, not wear down the cartilage, or risk dropping splints, yet the school ponies trot up and down the roads, and of course so does everyone else taught by these methods.
I used to ride hunters, and we did do some trotting on roads after six weeks of walking, but the horses are usually over six years of age, and will have to get used to fast trotting on roads, it is their job.

Imagine running for five miles on a concrete road with a set of steel crampons on your shoes, i think most of us would dip out of that race and end up walking.

The effects are cummulative and if you horse has had or has a front end lameness diagnosed as navicular, common sense dictates that you take extra precautions. After all this is why you asked about jumping, the same forces apply, the horse is landing on its front feet.
 
Last edited:
Bonkers2 said:
Maybe someone like your vet and your farrier will explain about concussion. The more you trot on roads the more the concussion.

I worked in a national hunt training yard for several years, and absolutely no one was allowed to trot on roads or on hard tracks. I was at a vet talk some time ago and the farrier, Jim Ferrie F.W.C.F., threw in a comment re lameness, "don't trot on roads ....... concussion...... longevity", this is the first time I have ever heard anyone mention this in a public forum, yet it is fundamental.
I never trot on roads unless I am in company (peer pressure), I always walk on roads to harden ligaments, and hopefully, not wear down the cartilage, or risk dropping splints, yet the school ponies trot up and down the roads, and of course so does everyone else taught by these methods.
I used to ride hunters, and we did do some trotting on roads after six weeks of walking, but the horses are usually over six years of age, and will have to get used to fast trotting on roads, it is their job.

Imagine running for five miles on a concrete road with a set of steel crampons on your shoes, i think most of us would dip out of that race and end up walking.

The effects are cummulative and if you horse has had or has a front end lameness diagnosed as navicular, common sense dictates that you take extra precautions. After all this is why you asked about jumping, the same forces apply, the horse is landing on its front feet.
Click to expand...

Thankyou :D
 
Wow.

The level of ignorance being shown to the very good advice being given here is astounding!
 
tallyho! said:
Wow.

The level of ignorance being shown to the very good advice being given here is astounding!
Click to expand...

Woah that's really rude, the OP isn't being ignorant at all. There's nothing wrong with asking questions on advice that someone's given, in fact its a healthy thing to do.
 
tallyho! said:
Wow.

The level of ignorance being shown to the very good advice being given here is astounding!
Click to expand...

The only thing I can see being questioned is the advice to stop trotting on the roads, by a person whose horse is sound and has been trotting on the roads for years. Most people trot on roads. Most horses die of something completely unrelated to trotting on roads. I don't personally want to forgo trotting on roads, which my horses and I both enjoy and benefit in fitness from, only to end up with an old horse who has to be put down because it's got no teeth. So on balance, I too will continue in what you describe as my ignorance and I prefer to describe as balanced risk.
 
Last edited:
Bonkers2 said:
if you horse has had or has a front end lameness diagnosed as navicular, common sense dictates that you take extra precautions (my edit - by not trotting on roads any more even though you've done it with no problems for years). After all this is why you asked about jumping, the same forces apply, the horse is landing on its front feet.
Click to expand...

This advice makes sense only if navicular disease is caused by concussion, as was the old belief. It's now known that it's caused by foot balance and in particular a weak back half of the foot. Whether this horse is trotted on the road or not, imo, will make no difference at this stage to the fact that it was a lou case seven years ago and has been sound since.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top