Navicular - I'm not convinced

[Jive Master]

Wow.

The level of ignorance being shown to the very good advice being given here is astounding!

Seriously..?!! How have I been ignorant.? I was simply asking a question & the question included my train of thought. Therefore helping Bonkers2 to answer my question in a way that address my train of thought. How is asking about something i have no experience with ignorant. I'm sorry but was there really any need for comment like that.? It doesn't help, it just makes me less likely to ask about anything in the future.. I simply needed help to understand & I apologise to Bonkers2 if I did offend at all (the thing with online forums is you can't know the context in which something is written).

 

[Jive Master]

The only thing I can see being questioned is the advice to stop trotting on the roads, by a person whose horse is sound and has been trotting on the roads for years. Most people trot on roads. Most horses die of something completely unrelated to trotting on roads. I don't personally want to forgo trotting on roads, which my horses and I both enjoy and benefit in fitness from, only to end up with an old horse who has to be put down because it's got no teeth. So on balance, I too will continue in what you describe as my ignorance and I prefer to describe as balanced risk.

Thankyou, Took the words right out of my mouth.! x

 

[Jive Master]

Additional note - I have watched him trotting today & can honestly say I did not see him land toes first once. He was taken over a very small (trotting) Cross pole with no issues (other than getting very excited)

 

[ycbm]

Additional note - I have watched him trotting today & can honestly say I did not see him land toes first once. He was taken over a very small (trotting) Cross pole with no issues (other than getting very excited)

You can't see the landing properly in trot. You need to walk him on a flat hard surface and look from right down at his foot level, lying on the floor if necessary In shoes, he needs to land flat or very, very, very slightly heel first.

PS you're welcome - I'll return your words to you when I've finished with them

 

[criso]

You can't see the landing properly in trot. You need to walk him on a flat hard surface and look from right down at his foot level, lying on the floor if necessary In shoes, he needs to land flat or very, very, very slightly heel first.

I generally video it with my phone from floor level then I can slow it down or freeze frame to check. It can be quite difficult if you're not used to looking for it and some are borderline.

 

[Jive Master]

You can't see the landing properly in trot. You need to walk him on a flat hard surface and look from right down at his foot level, lying on the floor if necessary In shoes, he needs to land flat or very, very, very slightly heel first.

PS you're welcome - I'll return your words to you when I've finished with them

Ahh okay someone mentioned to watch him trotting, I always check when he is walking as it's something my farrier mentioned (she says he doesn't do it, so isn't convinced he has navicular) she is right he only ever falls flat. However she puts rolled toes on his shoes because thats what he had when he arrived & just to make sure..

My farrier is very 'old school' & thinks the navicular diagnosis was probably a last resort after finding nothing else wrong.

Haha it's okay you can keep them

 

[Jive Master]

I generally video it with my phone from floor level then I can slow it down or freeze frame to check. It can be quite difficult if you're not used to looking for it and some are borderline.

Good Idea I may just try this, as you say I could just be missing it due to never really having to notice these things Haha It may take me a while to get any decent footage though..!!

 

[avthechav]

Been following this and FWIW I can't see much ignorance in this post? I was completely clueless before my horse started having foot problems and tbh thought that shoeing was the only way and navicular was a death sentence before getting invaluable advice from people on here and my vet, and my farrier which has completely changed my mindset. IMO this is not ignorance, simply a change in mindset when the majority of us were taught otherwise.....and as that's what most professionals also thought pre MRI I'm not sure anyone can be blames of ignorance?

I generally video it with my phone from floor level then I can slow it down or freeze frame to check. It can be quite difficult if you're not used to looking for it and some are borderline.

Anyway what I actually wanted to warn the OP was that once you start doing what criso has suggested it becomes completely addictive! Poor Gingie has more videos taken of his feet walking up and down the yard then any of his competition accolades! He must think I'm crazy.....it's becomes an obsession and then you spend your time trying to get other people enthusiastic about the nice clear heal first landings that show up beautifully on the ipad when you scroll through the vids a frame at a a time.....basically becoming aware of foot problems in horses is great for the horse, but does send you into a hoof mentalist! Good luck!

 

[Jive Master]

Been following this and FWIW I can't see much ignorance in this post? I was completely clueless before my horse started having foot problems and tbh thought that shoeing was the only way and navicular was a death sentence before getting invaluable advice from people on here and my vet, and my farrier which has completely changed my mindset. IMO this is not ignorance, simply a change in mindset when the majority of us were taught otherwise.....and as that's what most professionals also thought pre MRI I'm not sure anyone can be blames of ignorance?



Anyway what I actually wanted to warn the OP was that once you start doing what criso has suggested it becomes completely addictive! Poor Gingie has more videos taken of his feet walking up and down the yard then any of his competition accolades! He must think I'm crazy.....it's becomes an obsession and then you spend your time trying to get other people enthusiastic about the nice clear heal first landings that show up beautifully on the ipad when you scroll through the vids a frame at a a time.....basically becoming aware of foot problems in horses is great for the horse, but does send you into a hoof mentalist! Good luck!

Haha thanks for the warning..!! Just out of curiosity what supplements/vits/mins do you have yours on with regard to the foot problems.?

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

The horse was LOU so it must have been lame for some time, OP is lucky he is sound now, as it could have gone the other way, it still could, so this is why I advise against trotting on the roads with a shod horse.
Rockley farm have hundreds of clips of horses, best to pick one horse and follow its re hab
https://vimeo.com/119886631

 

[PolarSkye]

The navicular is a bone in the foot.

Classic Navicular disease presented as a lame horse with a boxy hoof, and it was considered pretty much progressive.

However "navicular syndrome" is rather broader.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navicular_syndrome

I think I might want to x ray the area, for comparison purposes in the future, but if not lame and there are no other symptoms, that is probably as far as I would go. Your vet is the expert. Ask your vet if X rays would be useful, they won't be £1000's, maybe you are thinking about other scans for soft tissue.
Check the hooves for warmth every day, they should all be the same temperature and remain the same every day. Ask vet to show you how to check lower limbs, this is good practice for every horse owner.
P.S. seaweed is considered too high in iron for horses, better use a broad mineral mix designed for horses.

This. I have a horse with very boxy feet - x-rays show very definite changes in the navicular bone in both fronts (as well as side bone). He is currently sound with appropriate management (and has been pretty much since diagnosis three years ago) but we manage him extremely carefully - by which I mean we are super careful about the ground he works on and he is NEVER allowed to trot or canter on any hard ground, but we make sure he works every day (blood flow to the foot is very important for navicular).

I feed him a diet very high in oil and fibre and low in starch and sugar with supplements to support good collagen/horn, etc.

Because navicular is a progressive disease, in your shoes, I'd maybe consider x-raying just so that you and your farrier are aware of what's going inside the hoof capsule and yoou can manage him accordingly - x-rays aren't that expensive.

P

 

[Michen]

Haha thanks for the warning..!! Just out of curiosity what supplements/vits/mins do you have yours on with regard to the foot problems.?

I've just started my navicular horse on forage plus. The barefooters (and I would feed the same stuff barefoot or not) go for Forage plus or Pro Hoof (ebay) it would seem

 

[avthechav]

Haha thanks for the warning..!! Just out of curiosity what supplements/vits/mins do you have yours on with regard to the foot problems.?

I feed fast fibre and micronised linseed, and the progressive earth pro balance...(they send you a chocolate bar of some description when they deliver which is nice too!) I have experimented with a few things over the past year including tumeric (no difference noticed), glucosamine (expensive and no difference noticed), magnesium oxide (on EP suggestion but again no difference noticed) and have now settled on devils claw and also protexin gut balancer. The devils claw is cheap enough and I know that some people have had success with it and the balancer is because I have a bit of a laminitis battle which I have had my vets and EP on with regards to ideas and so decided to try this. Gingie is actually better at the moment than he has ever been,...it jut a shame that I can't do much as I am fairly pregnant but hey ho, roll on summer. I have also moved away from the completely barefoot stance with gingie as well. He was barefoot for 18 months and worked happily in boots and pads but I couldn't get him consistently happy.... I'm on clay and so winter has been a long old wet stodgy mess with me not really riding either....so I'm going to try barefoot at the ideal but will shoe when circumstances mean that I can't keep him happy. I think that horses used to alway be kept this way, eventers were turned out with no shoes in winter and the hunters with no shoes in summer and nowadays all horses are worked all year round which can't help. We will see how this goes

 

[PolarSkye]

Haha thanks for the warning..!! Just out of curiosity what supplements/vits/mins do you have yours on with regard to the foot problems.?

I feed Kali ERS Pellets (designed for horses with, funnily enough, ERS - high in oil, low in starch and sugar with added extras like electrolytes (all barefoot approved), micronised linseed, a molasses free chaff, Maxavita, salt and ad lib (excellent quality) haylage. He gets very few treats (carrots, apple, etc - I don't give him any but his lovely jockey who is also looking after him at the moment due to my current ill health sneaks him the occasional sneaky one) and gets turned out on good, old-style grazing.

That's it. Nothing too complicated.

P

 

[PolarSkye]

I feed fast fibre and micronised linseed, and the progressive earth pro balance...(they send you a chocolate bar of some description when they deliver which is nice too!) I have experimented with a few things over the past year including tumeric (no difference noticed), glucosamine (expensive and no difference noticed), magnesium oxide (on EP suggestion but again no difference noticed) and have now settled on devils claw and also protexin gut balancer. The devils claw is cheap enough and I know that some people have had success with it and the balancer is because I have a bit of a laminitis battle which I have had my vets and EP on with regards to ideas and so decided to try this. Gingie is actually better at the moment than he has ever been,...it jut a shame that I can't do much as I am fairly pregnant but hey ho, roll on summer. I have also moved away from the completely barefoot stance with gingie as well. He was barefoot for 18 months and worked happily in boots and pads but I couldn't get him consistently happy.... I'm on clay and so winter has been a long old wet stodgy mess with me not really riding either....so I'm going to try barefoot at the ideal but will shoe when circumstances mean that I can't keep him happy. I think that horses used to alway be kept this way, eventers were turned out with no shoes in winter and the hunters with no shoes in summer and nowadays all horses are worked all year round which can't help. We will see how this goes

I tried turmeric, but as we have always treated and fed Kal as though he has ulcers (have never had him scoped but he is definitely a candidate), it didn't agree with him so I stopped - and tbh, I didn't see a difference/improvement in soundness. Although Kal is currently sound in his feet, he now has arthritis in his right hock (he was kicked/had surgery on it a few years ago now and feels it when it's cold - he's 16).

P

 

[avthechav]

I tried turmeric, but as we have always treated and fed Kal as though he has ulcers (have never had him scoped but he is definitely a candidate), it didn't agree with him so I stopped - and tbh, I didn't see a difference/improvement in soundness. Although Kal is currently sound in his feet, he now has arthritis in his right hock (he was kicked/had surgery on it a few years ago now and feels it when it's cold - he's 16).

P

Gah horses, if it's not one thing it's another! Hopefully he will feel happier in the summer then when warm? I got very excited when I started reading about turmeric and how it was cure all for everything and super cheap but just didn't seem to do anything and I don't want to get to a point when I'm feeding a million supplements because they 'might' be doing something one day....but I hear that some people have good results so think it's really horses for courses so to speak.

 

[Jive Master]

The horse was LOU so it must have been lame for some time, OP is lucky he is sound now, as it could have gone the other way, it still could, so this is why I advise against trotting on the roads with a shod horse.
Rockley farm have hundreds of clips of horses, best to pick one horse and follow its re hab
https://vimeo.com/119886631

From the story I have been told he was only lame for a few day initially & then once or twice after... Hence I don't really understand the LOU, he was insured for x-country but was only lame in advanced dressage tests... It's all very mind boggling

 

[PolarSkye]

Gah horses, if it's not one thing it's another! Hopefully he will feel happier in the summer then when warm? I got very excited when I started reading about turmeric and how it was cure all for everything and super cheap but just didn't seem to do anything and I don't want to get to a point when I'm feeding a million supplements because they 'might' be doing something one day....but I hear that some people have good results so think it's really horses for courses so to speak.

He's already better now that it's warmed up . . . but if I were a betting woman I'd say the arthritis will be what gets him in the end, not the navicular . . . so lots of turnout and keeping him in work will be the key to keeping him sound for as long as possible. He owes me nothing . . . come the day, I will do the right thing and either retire him (if I feel he can retire sound given the navicular), or have him PTS. It will break my heart into a million pieces, but rather that than have him live in pain - he's a naturally active, energetic, buzzy horse - being unable to move will depress him.

P

 

[Jive Master]

Thanyou all for your help & for sharing your feeding experiences... I have a lot to consider now but I think x-rays may be something I will do as a reference for the future & to see the present condition. Although its extra expense, I think it's best for him that I get them done, I'm one of those 'Feed room full - Cupboards empty' kinda people.

 

[criso]

From the story I have been told he was only lame for a few day initially & then once or twice after... Hence I don't really understand the LOU, he was insured for x-country but was only lame in advanced dressage tests... It's all very mind boggling

I suppose it's possible they picked up the lameness and rested carefully bringing him back into work starting on the flat. When they stepped it up too much he went lame again and they backed off. If he was lame on the flat then they may not have got to the point of risking jumping him.

However there must me more to it, insurance companies don't pay out for loss of use without strong supporting evidence and investigations. Does he have a brand on him for lou?

As I said before I would investigate, have a chat with your current vet and maybe the old owners to see if they are prepared to let your vet see his veterinary records.

 

[orbvalley]

another one who's been following this post as have 2 horses with navicular. Both retired. The first was retired last October shortly after we took him on, old X-rays showed he'd been navicular since at least aged 4!! He can not trot without limping (ever!). We retired him rather than try to bring him 60% sound which was what was all that had been managed by previous owners. He is 12 years old.
The second was diagnosed 3 weeks ago following X rays and a very long physical examination (again by a specialist equine vet). I decided, although heart broken, to retire him too. He is 18. Was advised by vet not to work him in circles, nor uphill or downhill and to walk in straight lines at walk on soft surfaces. Being that he is a full blooded flighty, hot spaniard (the horse not the vet!) it seems impossible to manage him at walk hacking only.
Hence 2 retired horses on full livery!
OP , it seems to me that you have already decided exactly which route you are going to take with your horse and this incurable condition that is at best vague in treating and managing. I wish you lots of luck. The fact that your choice is different to mine does not make either of us right nor wrong.

 

[Jive Master]

come the day, I will do the right thing and either retire him (if I feel he can retire sound given the navicular), or have him PTS. It will break my heart into a million pieces, but rather that than have him live in pain - he's a naturally active, energetic, buzzy horse - being unable to move will depress him.

P

This is exactly the conversation we have had, when he is ready to slow down we will know, as he will be a different horse. I would never allow him to live out his last years on bute, still in pain & depressed.

 

[Jive Master]

I suppose it's possible they picked up the lameness and rested carefully bringing him back into work starting on the flat. When they stepped it up too much he went lame again and they backed off. If he was lame on the flat then they may not have got to the point of risking jumping him.

However there must me more to it, insurance companies don't pay out for loss of use without strong supporting evidence and investigations. Does he have a brand on him for lou?

As I said before I would investigate, have a chat with your current vet and maybe the old owners to see if they are prepared to let your vet see his veterinary records.

Yea he has been freeze marked. Am speaking to the vet regarding one of the ponies on monday so I think i'm going to have a long discussion with her & get them to look into his history. Thankyou

 

[Jive Master]

another one who's been following this post as have 2 horses with navicular. Both retired. The first was retired last October shortly after we took him on, old X-rays showed he'd been navicular since at least aged 4!! He can not trot without limping (ever!). We retired him rather than try to bring him 60% sound which was what was all that had been managed by previous owners. He is 12 years old.
The second was diagnosed 3 weeks ago following X rays and a very long physical examination (again by a specialist equine vet). I decided, although heart broken, to retire him too. He is 18. Was advised by vet not to work him in circles, nor uphill or downhill and to walk in straight lines at walk on soft surfaces. Being that he is a full blooded flighty, hot spaniard (the horse not the vet!) it seems impossible to manage him at walk hacking only.
Hence 2 retired horses on full livery!
OP , it seems to me that you have already decided exactly which route you are going to take with your horse and this incurable condition that is at best vague in treating and managing. I wish you lots of luck. The fact that your choice is different to mine does not make either of us right nor wrong.

I think if he was lame at all or had been in the past year I would certainly be slowing him down but considering he is still going strong & actually has to be held back, it would be unfair of me to even semi-retire him.

 

[orbvalley]

OK.
Just for info, my spanish horse is an absolute speed freak even when lame he still bolts. But its me hat picks up the vets fee's, which that alone would be maybe liveable with but I just can't stand the guilt. He's liveried on a 26Hectare farm with lots of room to hooly around in, just IMO if he's lame due to his own antics I don't feel bad!

 

[ycbm]

another one who's been following this post as have 2 horses with navicular. Both retired. The first was retired last October shortly after we took him on, old X-rays showed he'd been navicular since at least aged 4!! He can not trot without limping (ever!). We retired him rather than try to bring him 60% sound which was what was all that had been managed by previous owners. He is 12 years old.
The second was diagnosed 3 weeks ago following X rays and a very long physical examination (again by a specialist equine vet). I decided, although heart broken, to retire him too. He is 18. Was advised by vet not to work him in circles, nor uphill or downhill and to walk in straight lines at walk on soft surfaces. Being that he is a full blooded flighty, hot spaniard (the horse not the vet!) it seems impossible to manage him at walk hacking only.
Hence 2 retired horses on full livery!
OP , it seems to me that you have already decided exactly which route you are going to take with your horse and this incurable condition that is at best vague in treating and managing. I wish you lots of luck. The fact that your choice is different to mine does not make either of us right nor wrong.

I think you have been badly advised. The condition is not incurable, though doing it with shoes on is very difficult. It is almost always a soft tissue injury and many have been cured. If your horse has not been MRI scanned, your vets know only that the horse is lame in the feet, they do not know why. X rays do not correlate at all well with lameness from the back half of the foot, nerve blocks only tell you whereabouts the lameness is coming from; only an MRI scan will tell you what is wrong. If you want to see horse after horse with this condition cured, check out rockleyfarm.blogspot.com.

 

[ycbm]

Thanyou all for your help & for sharing your feeding experiences... I have a lot to consider now but I think x-rays may be something I will do as a reference for the future & to see the present condition. Although its extra expense, I think it's best for him that I get them done, I'm one of those 'Feed room full - Cupboards empty' kinda people.

Don't waste your money. X rays will tell you nothing unless the bone is falling apart, in which case he'd be hopping lame. Fifty percent of sound horses will have changes on x rays. There is a very poor correlation between lameness and bone changes in the navicular. Only an MRI will tell you why a horse is lame in most cases. Contrary to what some posters have told you, the condition is NOT progressive as long as the poor foot development which causes it is resolved. That's difficult to do in shoes, which is why the myth is still being spread that the condition is progressive.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Because navicular is a progressive disease

this incurable condition

I think you have been badly advised. The condition is not incurable, though doing it with shoes on is very difficult. It is almost always a soft tissue injury and many have been cured. If your horse has not been MRI scanned, your vets know only that the horse is lame in the feet, they do not know why. X rays do not correlate at all well with lameness from the back half of the foot, nerve blocks only tell you whereabouts the lameness is coming from; only an MRI scan will tell you what is wrong. If you want to see horse after horse with this condition cured, check out rockleyfarm.blogspot.com.

YCBM, you have said exactly what I was thinking. Navicular used to be thought of as both progressive and incurable, but the work at Rockley (including MRIs taken before and after rehab) has shown that to not be the case. Project Dexter really does give hope to so many horses and their owners.

 

[Jive Master]

Don't waste your money. X rays will tell you nothing unless the bone is falling apart, in which case he'd be hopping lame. Fifty percent of sound horses will have changes on x rays. There is a very poor correlation between lameness and bone changes in the navicular. Only an MRI will tell you why a horse is lame in most cases. Contrary to what some posters have told you, the condition is NOT progressive as long as the poor foot development which causes it is resolved. That's difficult to do in shoes, which is why the myth is still being spread that the condition is progressive.

Okay thanks. Although now I'm certainly lost..!

 

[Jive Master]

YCBM, you have said exactly what I was thinking. Navicular used to be thought of as both progressive and incurable, but the work at Rockley (including MRIs taken before and after rehab) has shown that to not be the case. Project Dexter really does give hope to so many horses and their owners.

I'm Going to take a look at this Project Dexter. So X-rays are going to be pointless (damn just when I thought this was getting easier ).? As I said I will look at the above & then I think I will be in a better, more informed position to discuss it with you guys (if that's okay.?).

Thankyou all again