Navicular in already barefoot horse

[SpizWiz]

Does anyone have any experiences? Everything I'm reading is either shoes and wedges (which vet wants), or take shoes off and rehab barefoot.. which he has been for most of his life bar a 2 year stint in 2015.

Diagnosed via x-ray, opted to wait with the steroid jab offered as want to see what difference either the shoes or alternative make without masking it. Currently on 2 danilon a day and still lame (but obviously perfectly happy to bounce round the field like a pogo stick).

 

[ester]

What's his landing?

 

[ycbm]

I am so fed up with reading after all this time that vets are still diagnosing navicular syndrome by x ray. It's usually a soft tissue problem once a horse gets an MRI. The state of the navicular bone, unless it's got spur on it or falling apart, is usually a red herring.

I have known one, caused by inadequate turnout and work in winter. It went to Rockley and was sound within 8 weeks and never unsound again.
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[ycbm]

What's his landing?

This is key.

 

[Tiddlypom]

What is his current foot balance like?

Being barefoot does not necessarily mean that the foot is well balanced.

 

[Goldenstar]

As above Bf horses can have very bad foot balance .

 

[SpizWiz]

What's his landing?

Flat currently, was heel first on a variety of surfaces.

 

[ester]

ycbm I always think of the one you knew when it comes up. Am I right in thinking that the heels were underrun//toe long then too?
Ditto your thoughts on dx by xray only

 

[ycbm]

Yes, his heels had got weak in a livery where turnout was only a couple of hours 3 times a week, the owner was at school and not riding in the dark and wet, the mother saw him take a hooley round the field and bang went something. Diagnosed on MRI as collateral ligament, owner thankfully took my advice, because I had sold her the horse, and he went to Rockley. His heels rebuilt really fast, and he's been sound ever since.

Barefoot, as you know, is not a panacea for all ills, the feet have to do the miles to stay strong.
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[ycbm]

Flat currently, was heel first on a variety of surfaces.

When did it change and can you link it to anything happening?
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[SpizWiz]

When did it change and can you link it to anything happening?
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First changed in November last year - was doing low level flatwork and hacking one day, got on to warm up for a lesson the next and definite head-nod in trot on the left rein, fine the other way and straight. Vet's first saw a shadow on x-ray and thought he'd chipped pedal bone off. Rested, swapped painkillers (stifle arthritis) and brought back slowly up to w/t/c 30 mins and hacking up to an hour then came in lame as before. Newer x-rays done last week and he said the navicular showed remodelling. Horse is very "jolly" in the field so wouldn't put it past him to have done something stupid. Was still out 24/7 at that point.

 

[ycbm]

How long has he had the stifle issues? I have noticed several times that back end or back issues seem to cause long toes and underrun heels on the front. Is there any chance he had thrush back in September October?

Can you put up some side on pictures taken from a camera down on the floor?
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[SpizWiz]

How long has he had the stifle issues? I have noticed several times that back end or back issues seem to cause long toes and underrun heels on the front. Is there any chance he had thrush back in September October?

Can you put up some side on pictures taken from a camera down on the floor?
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Oh gosh years, did both patellar tendons first in 2014 and then again in 2017. Rested for 2 years+ each time as arthroscopy showed no “cause” - hence the low level of work, he is basically semi retired.
Photo’s are from March as that’s when I last took some.

 

[SEL]

Does anyone have any experiences? Everything I'm reading is either shoes and wedges (which vet wants), or take shoes off and rehab barefoot.. which he has been for most of his life bar a 2 year stint in 2015.

Diagnosed via x-ray, opted to wait with the steroid jab offered as want to see what difference either the shoes or alternative make without masking it. Currently on 2 danilon a day and still lame (but obviously perfectly happy to bounce round the field like a pogo stick).

I have an 11 yo mare who has never had shoes on who went lame on her right fore (it had probably been niggling for a while but we were all focussed on the injury to her left hind). I was actually expecting laminitis type damage which is why I asked for the x rays but they showed beautifully balanced feet, with a decent sole depth and damage to the navicular bone on that right fore. Next step would have been an MRI but she wasn't insured and realistically with her other problems I'd have been wasting money. Vet said to assume a soft tissue injury and treat as such. Steroids were out of the question because of the laminitis risk and the farrier couldn't see the point in putting shoes on her at that point in time. She blocked to the right fore, and was marginally off in the left fore when they did so the vet also said navicular - although I know a lot of the barefoot groups describe navicular syndrome as heel pain and I don't think she really fits that description.

Also bounces around the field happily (annoyingly). She was happier walking in boots and pads than barefoot - used to be rock crunching.

She's had another year off riding, with lots of in hand walking on all surfaces and it hasn't made the slightest difference. For unrelated reasons I have a different farrier out now who has watched her walk in the boots and said its not helping her breakover (she has very wide draft horse feet and boots don't seem to accommodate them) and he'd rather come up with a shoeing plan if she's struggling barefoot. Not sure what steps to take at the moment. If I keep her on the left rein in walk on a good surface then I can kid myself she's sound. Debating Osphos with the vets.

 

[Mule]

I had one who had been barefoot all her life who was diagnosed with navicular bursitis.

 

[sbloom]

Both photos look to show broken back hoof-pastern axes, the right hand shot looks to have a vertical cannon bone so is probably the more accurate. The broken back HPA is what puts the strain on the navicula bone and DDFT etc.

 

[ycbm]

Both photos look to show broken back hoof-pastern axes, the right hand shot looks to have a vertical cannon bone so is probably the more accurate. The broken back HPA is what puts the strain on the navicula bone and DDFT etc.

I'm not sure about that SB, I think the horse is standing in both photos with the leg brought back, possibly to relieve heel pain?

SW can you get some photos with the cannon bones verticle where the horse is stood right on top of the foot?
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[sbloom]

I'm not sure about that SB, I think the horse is standing in both photos with the leg brought back, possibly to relieve heel pain?

SW can you get some photos with the cannon bones verticle where the horse is stood right on top of the foot?
.

You could be right, certainly possible with the one on the left, and yes, to be definitive we need to see a vertical cannon bone. But the heels are low, and the toes probably long, so a broken back HPA is highly likely, and is of course nearly always seen in a horse with heel pain or "navicula" diagnosis.

 

[ycbm]

It's how my horse with kissing spines grew his feet. It drove me crazy that his feet kept running forwards until I realised he had back problems. Since then, I've recognised in other horses that problem in the back or hind legs can often cause the front feet to run forwards. The answer is to fix the back end issues, if that's the case, and the kissing spines operation I had done on mine showed quickly in his front feet (and removed a sizeable limb flight deviation in his right foreleg).

 

[SpizWiz]

I'm not sure about that SB, I think the horse is standing in both photos with the leg brought back, possibly to relieve heel pain?

SW can you get some photos with the cannon bones verticle where the horse is stood right on top of the foot?
.

Been trying to get photos all week and at first I thought he’s just a very “upright” breed being a pba and that it’s just how he is, but the further back I look over the years, his square halts have definitely altered from properly square to ears up my nose, upright square in front so I’ve obviously missed something brewing for a long time
Back x-rayed clear in 2017 and been off games until March last year due to the tendon.