Navicular in the young high value competition horse - WWYD?

ycbm said:
To put this simply, your friend does not yet have a diagnosis for why her horse is unsound. The x rays mean almost nothing. It really would be worth her while to nerve block one front foot. If he's then more unlevel, then the greatest likelihood is that he has minor tendon or ligament strain in the foot which would be easily cured by removing the shoes. As he is sound to work gently, there will be no need to start by leading him in hand unless he is sore from removing the shoes.

Turning away is not the answer for these horses, they need work graduated to their ability. Many which are turned away will either remain lame or go lame again when brought back into work.


I actually shocked that a German vet would give such a pessimistic prognosis on the basis of x rays alone, I think your friend has been let down by him/her :(
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Thanks for your response and views. she does have a diagnosis, and the horse is not lame or unsound in any way, and never has been. She only noticed a slight resistance from him, when riding into corners, and also he was not accepting the contact like he did before, so she called the vet immediately to get him checked out. She is a very successful fulltime trainer / comp rider, and planned to work the horse in age appropriate work going forward, but now feels this will be too much for him and may contribute to the progression of the navicular changes on the xrays. She had him xrayed every year since he was 1 year old, and comparing against previous xrays, there are visible changes.

I've sent her some of the recommended readings / links from this thread, to explore barefoot in more details, now she just needs time to re-frame the issue and look at solutions. Sometimes when your world caves in, it's hard to see outside the box or to think of other perspectives. Everyone has provided different perspectives, and I have passed these on to her, I am really grateful to everyone for sharing their thoughts. A big thank you to all of you.
 
Cortez said:
Whilst I agree in principle with what has been said re rehab, keeping the horse unshod, etc. with the average leisure or low level competition horse, I think when the subject is destined for a GP dressage career it is simply not worth taking the risk over the long term. If I was aiming a young horse at that level I would want to be as confidant as possible that spending a minimum of 5 years training to reach the level was not going to be wasted.

This is why professional trainers are so very picky when evaluating conformation, gaits, x-rays, etc.
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Exactly! She's invested approx 40K€ already in this horse, and every month it is an extra 1,000€, and to have such a big risk, she feels that it's best to stop now.
 
Andiamo said:
Thanks for your response and views. she does have a diagnosis, and the horse is not lame or unsound in any way, and never has been. She only noticed a slight resistance from him, when riding into corners, and also he was not accepting the contact like he did before, so she called the vet immediately to get him checked out. She is a very successful fulltime trainer / comp rider, and planned to work the horse in age appropriate work going forward, but now feels this will be too much for him and may contribute to the progression of the navicular changes on the xrays. She had him xrayed every year since he was 1 year old, and comparing against previous xrays, there are visible changes.
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There are visible changes in fifty per cent of sound horses. They do not explain lameness, resistance into corners or contact issues.

I completely agree with Cortez for a prospective GP horse though, it's to high a risk. But taking one Euro for him would probably be throwing money away completely unnecessarily.
 
I'd just like to point out that going barefoot isn't a magic solution and strain to the tendons/ligaments in the foot are not going to be all fine once the shoes are off, as sometimes gets implied on these posts.
Case in point, my mare is unshod and has managed to develop changes to her navicular bones and damage the soft tissues in the foot. She is kept well trimmed and 'barefoot friendly'. But wear and tear, a slight genetic pre-disposition and bad luck have all played their part.
 
She doesn't really have a diagnosis, we only know that the horse has changes to the navicular bone which many sound non affected horses likely have too.

If he isn't lame I would take the shoes off and carry on as before and see how he copes/take xrays down the line. At least if he does she would know which level to sell him at/for.

TheMule if the horse isn't lame I'm presuming there isn't much strain etc going on. It's definitely not a catch all and a reduction in work may be necessary but I think it is worth a try.
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
cortez-do you mean you wouldnt bother trying to rehab for GP as not sure the horse will stand up to it or you dont think he would be able to do GP un shod so reha a waste of time?

just to add-my first ex racer had navicular changes at 6yo, went barefoot and was never lame again. vets were sceptical but proof is in the pudding. she died from a brain tumour but was schooling all the GP work at home.
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No, having horses shoeless is absolutely fine (mine all are); it's just that with GP in mind I would not invest the time needed in anything that had known possible problems (there are enough unknown ones waiting for us all!).
 
Sorry but if he is not unsound as such then the resistance may not even be related to the feet and could simply be a training issue. Can you give us specific detail on the diagnostics she had done? Plenty of top level competition horses would show up (and do show up ) with navicular changes but these are usually found when hunting for other things and have never been the cause of a day's lameness in their life.

This sounds to me much more a 'cultural' issue than a veterinary issue. On the continent they breed beautiful horses like they are going out of fashion and therefore they are (comparatively) cheap as chips to UK bred horses. People are therefore much happier to treat them as disposable objects than over here. However it is not unusual for one style of training to not suit a horse, or he is being pushed too far too fast, and there is every chance that he is finding it too difficult at his current stage of development. I don't know your friend so can't make a judgement but there are too many variables to make a call based on what you have told us.


At the end of the day your friend has to make a judgement based on her own financial situation and how much she wants to pursue this horse. I can accept as a pro that it probably isn't her thing, but there is no reason that a perfectly sound horse can't go onto have a meaningful life if more attention is paid to it's overall wellbeing, physicality and work programme not just its feet.
 
Andiamo said:
Exactly! She's invested approx 40K€ already in this horse, and every month it is an extra 1,000€, and to have such a big risk, she feels that it's best to stop now.
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^^^^ This I get - but if she does decide to sell, tell her not to sell too cheap. The horse potentially still has a lot to offer someone but she will need to be open and honest about it.
 
Andiamo said:
I've been in Germany a year, and all the horses I've seen are too long in the toe, and I was concerned about this style of farriery, seems to be the norm here, long in the toe and low slung heels.
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If you wanted to try to cause navicular in a horse, the first thing that you would do is to alter the hoof balance to long toes and under-run heels and get the horse landing to first.
 
ycbm said:
There are visible changes in fifty per cent of sound horses. They do not explain lameness, resistance into corners or contact issues.

I completely agree with Cortez for a prospective GP horse though, it's to high a risk. But taking one Euro for him would probably be throwing money away completely unnecessarily.
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THIS!

its the same as kissing spine-x ray a 100 horses and you will find some with impinging processes which are lame/sore,some which are sound and in work, some with no impinging processes which are lame/sore and some which are sound.

unles you take an x ray every year its hard to say if they are changes or just how that horse is.

give him some time off and see,dont jump to the wrong conclusion too quick.
 
The only advice I have is my horse was diagnosed via x ray with navicular / changes and following an MRI the next year (when I could afford one) it actually turned out not to be navicular but a strain to her ligament within the hoof. So I think there is something to be said about relying on only x rays.
 
I used to breed dressage horses on a commercial scale (in the US) and any that were destined for the top end were x-rayed annually from yearlings. I have had promising 3 - 4 year olds that displayed navicular-type changes and were immediately withdrawn from that market. NONE ever developed navicular, but I could not offer them for sale to professionals with x-rays like that. They were sold to amatuer riders and many went on to have successful lower-level competition careers.
 
Oh I would be so wary about rehoming him for free. In fact if I was in the same situation that would not be an option for me. You hear some real horror stories, and three problems stand out for me.

Firstly, 4 year olds tend to be quiet. They push the boundaries at 5 or 6 as they realise their own strength and power. I imagine he would go to someone looking for a quieter life, and that sort of person may not want, or be equipped to deal with the hi jinks of a big young Hanoverian.

Secondly, with a quality horse like that, I imagine people would be tempted to push him, say they go out scoring 70% at novice, will they really settle for that?

Thirdly, you might simply get someone who masks his issues and turns him over for a quick (and significant) profit.

She could loan him out? Might be the safer option. I would give rehab a bash, unless that would damage her ridden career?
 
If she's going to give him away, what's she got to lose by taking the shoes off. Time yes. Money, not really. She's lost the money already. If she spent 6 months rehabbing him and his feet improved, she could then sell him as more than a lame horse and get some money back. Or maybe he will be fine and the horse she thought he could be.
 
Wow, a big fancy sound horse for free? I'll have him.

I can't quite get my head around where's she's spent the money, she's had xrays, that she apparently gets every year, that show navicular changes but you haven't mentioned any treatment. I don't think you can say she's invested 40k in this horse as monthly expenses are just running costs. Any horse in intensive training is going to cost that and very few hit the grade. I would also try the BF route with this horse, especially as he's so young and it seems there's been a lot of training in a very short time.
 
F
TheMule said:
I'd just like to point out that going barefoot isn't a magic solution and strain to the tendons/ligaments in the foot are not going to be all fine once the shoes are off, as sometimes gets implied on these posts.
Case in point, my mare is unshod and has managed to develop changes to her navicular bones and damage the soft tissues in the foot. She is kept well trimmed and 'barefoot friendly'. But wear and tear, a slight genetic pre-disposition and bad luck have all played their part.
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I have known several barefoot horses with soft tissue injuries inside the foot. All happened as a result of a weak back half to the foot, exactly the same reason it happens with shod horses. Some horses get it more easily than others, and for those, there is likely to be a need for a perfect diet and constant movement, self trimming to ensure that the horse has the foot it wants to match its body, together with a complete absence of any metabolic disease. This can be very difficult to achieve in some cases.
 
Personally if it were me and I had already invested all that in the horse I would think I had little more to lose by giving barefoot rehab a go. There are rehabbed barefoot GP horses out there, except the owners don't shout about it that much. I know my trimmer trims at least a couple, and more small tour horses. Mine is barefoot and competing medium, schooling adv medium - and I can tell you if we don't get to GP it won't be the feet that are the limiting factor, even though his feet were quite a state when I got him and I think looking back had I not pulled the shoes when I did (I'd had him a month) he would have been in remedials within 6 months - I don't think his issues could have been solved with shoes.

I can understand not wanting to invest many years of training into a horse already showing changes, but equally you could buy another horse with perfect x-rays and it could die of colic the next day, you just don't know.

I am a 100% believer in barefoot and I really would urge her to give this a go. Also the horse is so young still, I wouldn't underestimate the power of the horse's body to regenerate, if only it is given the opportunity to do so.
 
My jumping horse had front feet x rayed due to issue with with one foot. The x rays showed a cracked navicular bone.......in his good foot. Vet said that if it had been in his lame foot they would recommend pts and felt he would be never be right.

OH view was you never x rayed him when he was OK so you have nothing to compare with.

We took him home, and just carried on a although we were cáreful with the ground. He carried on until he was 21.

There are horses who should be lame and are not and others who have nothing obviously wrong yet are lame.

My view is if they are sound then carry on.
 
anuvb said:
Sorry but if he is not unsound as such then the resistance may not even be related to the feet and could simply be a training issue. Can you give us specific detail on the diagnostics she had done? Plenty of top level competition horses would show up (and do show up ) with navicular changes but these are usually found when hunting for other things and have never been the cause of a day's lameness in their life.

This sounds to me much more a 'cultural' issue than a veterinary issue. On the continent they breed beautiful horses like they are going out of fashion and therefore they are (comparatively) cheap as chips to UK bred horses. People are therefore much happier to treat them as disposable objects than over here. However it is not unusual for one style of training to not suit a horse, or he is being pushed too far too fast, and there is every chance that he is finding it too difficult at his current stage of development. I don't know your friend so can't make a judgement but there are too many variables to make a call based on what you have told us.


At the end of the day your friend has to make a judgement based on her own financial situation and how much she wants to pursue this horse. I can accept as a pro that it probably isn't her thing, but there is no reason that a perfectly sound horse can't go onto have a meaningful life if more attention is paid to it's overall wellbeing, physicality and work programme not just its feet.
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He was not cheap as chips, as you have implied, he is a high value horse, with already a lot invested in him. He is also not a disposable object, he is a family member, she wants the absolute best for him. And I disagree with your comment "On the continent they breed beautiful horses like they are going out of fashion and therefore they are (comparatively) cheap as chips to UK bred horses." This is simply incorrect. He is not being pushed too fast, she has done absolutely everything to ensure the health, wellbeing and happiness of the horse. So, your comments are wrong. .
 
Faracat said:
If you wanted to try to cause navicular in a horse, the first thing that you would do is to alter the hoof balance to long toes and under-run heels and get the horse landing to first.
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agreed. It can cause all sorts of problems! I had super farriers in the UK, and I haven't been too impressed with the hooves I've seen in Germany, sad but true.
Worst part is, it's more expensive in Germany!
 
Cortez said:
I used to breed dressage horses on a commercial scale (in the US) and any that were destined for the top end were x-rayed annually from yearlings. I have had promising 3 - 4 year olds that displayed navicular-type changes and were immediately withdrawn from that market. NONE ever developed navicular, but I could not offer them for sale to professionals with x-rays like that. They were sold to amatuer riders and many went on to have successful lower-level competition careers.
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Thanks for sharing this Cortez.
 
Navicular is a broad term to describe "not enough room" "pinching" "lesions" "lameness" near or at the navicular bone.

My horse had it. Tried everything a metal shoe could throw at it. Awful.

Took shoes off, tried "barefoot". Was sound enough to jump after 6 months. He also had laminitis which is an added complication but do not write off what nature can do!
 
ok this is outside the box with no comment on bare foot or mri etc etc.

this horse obviously has good breeding and is entire, would the original stud not consider running him assuming that it is not genetic? yes the stud fee would not be as good as a proven competition horse but if his offspring did well it might increase.

no worries about over working and re selling? maybe a bit of Dr green time off with a new job will fix the issue for revisiting work later?
 
hollyandivy123 said:
ok this is outside the box with no comment on bare foot or mri etc etc.

this horse obviously has good breeding and is entire, would the original stud not consider running him assuming that it is not genetic? yes the stud fee would not be as good as a proven competition horse but if his offspring did well it might increase.

no worries about over working and re selling? maybe a bit of Dr green time off with a new job will fix the issue for revisiting work later?
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Navicular inheritability is currently being researched by the German Hannovarian society. They are trying to identify if there is a link between the size and shape of the navicular bone, adjacent blood vessels, and soft tissue and horses found to have navicular changes. I'm guessing, that at least at present, this horse's X-rays would not be approved for breeding by the various breed societies.
 
mtj said:
Navicular inheritability is currently being researched by the German Hannovarian society. They are trying to identify if there is a link between the size and shape of the navicular bone, adjacent blood vessels, and soft tissue and horses found to have navicular changes. I'm guessing, that at least at present, this horse's X-rays would not be approved for breeding by the various breed societies.
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Exactly, my friend believes he should not breed, she thought about getting one foal from him (for herself), but decided against it, since it might have a genetic factor.
 
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