Navicular rehab progress report

cptrayes

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For people who are interested in the progress of the horse that I took on to rehabilitate barefoot, he is making great progress after nine and half weeks (eat your heart out Kim Basinger! You have to be about 50 to understand that one :) )

He was booked into a veterinary hospital to be put to sleep 24 hours after I agreed to take him on. His owner had been unable to sleep (I wonder why??) and saw my earlier post on this forum asking for a horse like him. That appointment was cancelled by a very brave owner who was prepared to give him to me to try to resolve his problems.

He has radiograph (xray) based diagnosis of navicular syndrome, with fuzzy edges to the navicular bone. Current research would suggest that this inevitably means that he also had lesions in the deep digital flexor tendon inside his feet. He has had adequan, tildren, hyaluronic acid and bar shoes, all of which failed. In addition to that he appeared to have issues digesting grass which were causing him poor foot quality (in particular bull-nose feet and finger-bendable thin soles, which seem to go with grass-intolerant horses). My first task was to stabilise his diet and he is doing very well on haylage and some sugar beet with 50g brewer's yeast, 50g magnesium oxide and a trace of copper (this last because we are high in manganese and iron here and that creates copper deficiency - it is not recommended to supplement copper unless you know you have a deficiency, it's poisonous).

After nine weeks, he's going from strength to strength. He's in ridden work two days in three, lunging on the third and shortly to move to three days out of four. He is schooling ridden in walk, trot and canter with no sign of any lameness and offering lengthened strides easily. He's also doing lengthened trot up gentle hills on the road. We are still in front boots on the road because he has long toes with a couple of soft spots in them that feel stones, but I'm sure that won't be permanent. I'm thinking of taking him and doing a prelim dressage test next week.

He stiffens up a teeny bit if he falls asleep and stands without moving for a couple of hours, but he walks that off in half a dozen strides. If he carries on without any setbacks I'll be riding out on uneven ground next week, doing some more lengthy canter work, and thinking about hacking gently around the farm ride by the end of May.

I don't have track system and this horse can't be turned out because of his problems eating grass. I do have a yard and a barn, so he doesn't live in a 12x12 stable, but my facilities are far from perfect for rehabbing a horse who really needs to keep moving.

But his progress so far, given that he was due to be put to sleep for his long term lameness from navicular syndrome less than ten weeks ago, and his lack of response to all the common treatments, is surely cause for hope for everyone who has a "navicular" horse?
 

Curragh

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Wow thats great news! So pleased for the horse. I picked up Charlie from Rockley Farm on Saturday, hes going well and fingers crossed I don't mess up all her hard work!
 

Orangehorse

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Well done. Glad to know everything is going well. Are you planning to have his feet X rayed again at some stage?
 

cptrayes

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Well done. Glad to know everything is going well. Are you planning to have his feet X rayed again at some stage?

I would love to but I can't justify the cost. It would be great to see what has happened inside his feet in a year or so, but he isn't for sale so I can't recoup the money he is costing me at the moment, never mind pay out a couple of hundred for more xrays, even if they would be extremely interesting. He's a lovely sweet horse and he has been worth the effort and the cost. When I rehome him in a couple of months, someone is going to get a wonderful dressage horse for free!
 

mrdarcy

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Excellent news - pity about the x-rays, it would be really interesting to see the difference - why not make it a condition of the new owner... they get a free horse but they have to pay for x-rays in 12 months time? Call it a donation to the cause of barefoot rehabbing.
 

soloequestrian

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That's amazing in such a short time! Could you ask the vet who originally x-rayed if they would be interested in having another look for free?!
 

teddyt

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I dont actually think repeat x rays would show anything apart from that the bony changes were the same or more severe, they certainly wouldnt show that there was an improvement as it is a degenerative condition. The improvement in pain/lameness would be due to improved health of the DDFT, which wouldnt show upon an x ray, improved foot balance, relationship of the bone to the hoof capsule, etc. The latter would be shown on x ray and would be helpful if done regularly, as a one off they would be of lesser value.

Ultimately the horse is the judge- his management is obviously helping.
 

mrdarcy

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The jury is still out I think, as to whether the navicular bone will rebuild. Certainly bone is a living tissue and will remodel and rebuild itself constantly through an animals (or humans!) lifetime - so it is certainly possible. After all broken bones fix themselves - including the pedal bone... as long as the blood supply is there then why wouldn't the navicular bone behave in the same way? There have been recorded cases showing x-rays with bony changes pre rehab and x-rays taken some months later showing the bony changes have gone, however for this to be accepted by vets/farriers there really needs to be some proper studies undertaken. I imagine the answer is probably sometimes the navic bone will rebuild and sometimes it won't - depending on the individual horse. The horse doesn't care - as long as he's pain free and sound that's all that matters.

There's a good article here:

http://www.hoofrehab.com/NavicularSyndrome.htm
 

cptrayes

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I dont actually think repeat x rays would show anything apart from that the bony changes were the same or more severe, they certainly wouldnt show that there was an improvement as it is a degenerative condition. The improvement in pain/lameness would be due to improved health of the DDFT, which wouldnt show upon an x ray, improved foot balance, relationship of the bone to the hoof capsule, etc. The latter would be shown on x ray and would be helpful if done regularly, as a one off they would be of lesser value.

Ultimately the horse is the judge- his management is obviously helping.

There is evidence that the bone can heal. I know of MRI scans in one horse that show such healing and I'm sure there will be more in future. I am at a loss to understand why vets are quite happy to watch a broken arm or leg heal on the rider and assume that the navicular bone can't heal if you stop damaging it with a toe first landing.
 

cptrayes

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Excellent news - pity about the x-rays, it would be really interesting to see the difference - why not make it a condition of the new owner... they get a free horse but they have to pay for x-rays in 12 months time? Call it a donation to the cause of barefoot rehabbing.


Good idea! I'm trying to find him a home where the owner can't afford a horse trained to advanced dressage but rides with talent, but I guess that doesn't mean they won't be able to afford £200 for some xrays, especially as they won't be paying £80 a set for shoes :)
 

cptrayes

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That's amazing in such a short time! Could you ask the vet who originally x-rayed if they would be interested in having another look for free?!


It certainly is quick. One of the reasons that I wanted a rehab of my own is that the commercial rehab yard I know of gets them through in three or four months. I wanted to see the day to day changes if it happens that quickly. And they have been shocking, with angle and shape changes over 48 hours at times. The commercial yard has a track, which I think would speed things up a lot because of the constant movement and wear on the feet causing very fast growth.

Still, he's doing OK without one, he has more that half a foot in now, with a new heel on the floor which has made a big difference to him, and on that basis will have a complete foot to the floor at the toe in 16-18 weeks from start to finish. He has two new foot angles, a much steeper one from where the shoes came off and another even steeper one from when his heel reached the floor and started to give him proper firm support.

Your suggestion is a good one, I'll certainly phone the original vets and ask if they want to see him.
 

rupertsmum

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I am sitting here (at work ) with heart in my mouth reading the first post. My TB (you might have seen a previous post) was diagnosed with navicular on Wednesday. Yesterday after the amazing testimonials of people on here I decided that I would research the whole barefoot route and this is amazing!

On wednesday I was planning which field in the farm we were going to bury him in and now there is hope!!!

Thank you
 

stormybracken

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Hi rupertsmum - there may be hope, I've been following your thread and seen the fantastic information people having been posting - far more positive than anything I can get from vets at the moment!

Caroline undertook this particular horse after years of learning about these illnesses and rehabbing her own horses, and has put a huge amount of effort into helping him as he's been different again to her previous ones. It's not an easy option, but hopefully for the horse is the most comfortable, and takes care of his whole self not just one foot! It is not something to do without help from people who know and have successful past experience.

Pleased to hear his fantastic progress Caroline!
 

cptrayes

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Good point SB. Rupertsmum I've posted a quick update on here for exactly that reason, so people like you will know that there are alternatives and hope. You are right to be very hopeful for your horse because mine is VERY far from an isolated example of "navicular" horses returning to work. But do make sure that you get the right help. Diet is ENORMOUSLY important. There are lots of horses whose feet are weak because of what's going in their mouths, and they won't thrive barefoot until they get the right minerals and stop getting the wrong sugary food. But if you can get that right, find a trimmer who knows what they are doing (I'd say use a farrier or a trimmer, but one who has plenty of WORKING barefoot horses, and I don't mean just going from field to arena to stable, ones that you can see hacking on stones and doing 2 hours roadwork.)

I will also warn you that it is not all day after day progress, you may occasionally despair that he has gone one step forward and taken two back again, particularly as numbed nerve endings in his feet come alive in stages. But if you stick with it there is a very high probability that he will return to full work inside six months.

You will find lots of people willing to help you on this forum. Definitely no need to bury him yet :)
 

AmyMay

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I would love to but I can't justify the cost

The justification, surely, is providing the veterinary community with ongoing results of how your methods work........

I can't see how you can justify not having the x-rays done.
 

cptrayes

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That's amazing in such a short time! Could you ask the vet who originally x-rayed if they would be interested in having another look for free?!

The justification, surely, is providing the veterinary community with ongoing results of how your methods work........

I can't see how you can justify not having the x-rays done.


Amymay I have already spent £300 to keep this horse alive and will be spending £200 more before he leaves me on permanent loan. Why do you think it is my responsibility to pay another £200 to provide the veterinary community with evidence that a barefoot rehab resolves damage to the navicular bone? My objective was to save his life, not to fund research. I am baffled as to why you think that should be my responsibility, perhaps you could explain?
 

AmyMay

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Amymay I have already spent £300 to keep this horse alive and will be spending £200 more before he leaves me on permanent loan. Why do you think it is my responsibility to pay another £200 to provide the veterinary community with evidence that a barefoot rehab resolves damage to the navicular bone? My objective was to save his life, not to fund research. I am baffled as to why you think that should be my responsibility, perhaps you could explain?

If you want people to understand your process and have faith in your results, you have to show proof of how your methods work.

If you're not bothered about that, then fair enough. However as you claim to have success where the scientific comunity fail, it would seem common sense.
 

cptrayes

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Amymay success for me is measured in the fact that he is alive, drug free and in work. I am intrigued that you have need of proof that the navicular bone mends. It's really of no relevance if it does or it does not if a horse is sound, drug free and in full work, is it? That's enough proof for me and most owners.

If vets feel the need to know, then they can find out. He is here and I will offer the vets who failed to cure him the opportunity to xray him, as I have my own vets. I'll even take him there. But I won't pay for it. Maybe they should pay me for increasing their knowledge of how to treat navicular syndrome, since they used everything bar de-nerving/tendon-cutting for over a year and couldn't do what he has done for himself in 10 weeks :) ?

I suspect that you have jumped to the conclusion that I earn money from barefoot trimming? That is not correct, I am a private individual and I earn no money from anything related to horses.
 

rupertsmum

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Cptrayes if it worked I don't want scientific proof..... somebody once said to me ' do you love someone?' then prove it scientifically... says it all really


however I have phoned my vet today who is more negative than I had imagined. Basically his heels are far too low and the nerve and blood supply are restricted, yet he is in box rest for 5 days and a month of 2x 20 min walks a day, from my (little) knowledge and research this seems to go against the whole idea of getting blood to the foot....

aghhhhhhhhhhhhhh i now feel so much that barefoot is the way to go and i have already made contact with a barefoot AEP trimmer (from a very kind user on here) and i am hoping that he will be able to offer advice and visit next week.

any suggestions?
 

mrdarcy

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Cptrayes if it worked I don't want scientific proof..... somebody once said to me ' do you love someone?' then prove it scientifically... says it all really


however I have phoned my vet today who is more negative than I had imagined. Basically his heels are far too low and the nerve and blood supply are restricted, yet he is in box rest for 5 days and a month of 2x 20 min walks a day, from my (little) knowledge and research this seems to go against the whole idea of getting blood to the foot....

aghhhhhhhhhhhhhh i now feel so much that barefoot is the way to go and i have already made contact with a barefoot AEP trimmer (from a very kind user on here) and i am hoping that he will be able to offer advice and visit next week.

any suggestions?

Unfortunately there are still many vets who, for whatever reason, are clueless when it comes to barefoot. A very well respected equine vet in my area told me in no uncertain terms that barefoot in this country is impossible because it's too wet and all barefoot horses will get white line disease. All mine lived in a bog most of the winter, not a dry section of the field to stand in, and yet not a single sign of WLD in any of them. That's twenty feet all strong and healthy despite my boggy fields. Four feet a fluke maybe, twenty feet - should be convincing proof but I doubt he will ever change his mind. You'd expect a vet to know that WLD only attacks shod feet (because of restricted circulation) or feet already weakened by bad diet but a surprising number don't - maybe because they see so many feet with stretched white lines and WLD that it becomes the norm. Some vets when faced with a strong, healthy barefoot are gob smacked - it's something some of them very rarely see.

What I always say to people is if your vet tells you to do something that doesn't sound right or logical ask them why they want you to do it. So your vet has told you the nerve/blood supply is restricted - ask him how being on box rest will help resolve this as it is accepted fact that the only way to increase blood supply to the foot is by movement. Challenge them to explain what they're doing and why. And if you still can't get a sensible answer get a second opinion from a vet at a different practice.

I would get the DEP out next week, listen to what he has to say and take it from there. If you have any questions following his visit then just ask on here for help/clarification
 

stormybracken

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The best source of information I've found so far has been the "Feet First" book by Nic Barker and Sarah Braithwaite - I gave a copy to my local vet practice! Also Sarah's website www.performancebarefoot.co.uk has good dietary advice and case studies.
We have a big meeting with vets next week...
 

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Rupertsmum. My vet was exactly the same whe I first suggested going barefoot- after all this was the horse that needed hoofboots when we took his shoes off for the MRI. I can't post a link as I'm on my blackberry but if you look at a previous post I made on a thres about collateral ligamnet damage, you can find a link showing how much a TB's feet can change in the right circumstances. In fact if you do a search on that blog for Frankie then there's loads about his progress.
 

teddyt

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There is evidence that the bone can heal. I know of MRI scans in one horse that show such healing and I'm sure there will be more in future. I am at a loss to understand why vets are quite happy to watch a broken arm or leg heal on the rider and assume that the navicular bone can't heal if you stop damaging it with a toe first landing.

Yes, bone heals when it has been damaged by trauma. But i dont believe (yet!) that NS is just due to trauma. It is multifactorial and i do think there is an element of degeneration in some (not all) cases. This may be due to genetics or extended trauma over a period of time to the point of no return.

So in cases where NS is due to foot balance then i would expect in some cases there to be improvement in x rays as the bone remodels once the cause is removed or reduced. But in case of NS that have other potential causes, such as genetics then the degenerative changes wont improve.

Unfortunately until more horses are x rayed to provide 'proof' of improvement following a certain treatment, evidence of improvement is only anecdotal. This wont stand up to scrutiny from many vets (and others) who require firm evidence of a successful treatment and wont just take someones word for it. Although you may have the best intentions,unfortunately without hard evidence such as an x ray- whats to distinguish your opinion that a treatment has worked from Joe Bloggs who has said that feeding a horse a special supplement and teaching it to sleep with its feet in the air also improves bone health? Ok, thats a silly example but hopefully you can see my point?
 

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Stick with it Rupert's mum - you'll learn so much along the way.

I have sceptical vets too, but they have seen two of mine recover - one from big back of foot issues, and one from laminitis. With xrays to back it up.

The vet brings students and lets them play with the lami's feet.

I think the clincher was when we drove to the vets with the barefoot
laminitic to pay the bill!
 

cptrayes

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Unfortunately until more horses are x rayed to provide 'proof' of improvement following a certain treatment, evidence of improvement is only anecdotal. This wont stand up to scrutiny from many vets (and others) who require firm evidence of a successful treatment and wont just take someones word for it. Although you may have the best intentions,unfortunately without hard evidence such as an x ray- whats to distinguish your opinion that a treatment has worked from Joe Bloggs who has said that feeding a horse a special supplement and teaching it to sleep with its feet in the air also improves bone health? Ok, thats a silly example but hopefully you can see my point?

If a horse is sound and in full work drug free then a vet can't say then clearly if the horse was lame and is no longer, a barefoot rehab has worked, radiographs notwithstanding. If it was a one-off case, your point is valid but we are talking about there being at least one commercial yard that sells rehab treatments and hundreds of individuals all around the country who have rehabbed horses that vets and farriers said would never be sound. There is a substantial body of evidence now if anyone looks for it.

It is not a case of "taking someones word for it". Vets can see a horse which was lame move without lameness. That evidence is clinical, not anecdotal. It can be, and is being, replicated time after time. They may not understand WHY the treatment has worked, but that's a different issue.

The proof that it works is that there are now dozens, probably into the hundreds, of horses that were recommended to be retired or put to sleep which are in full work without shoes. It drives me batty that there are vets and farriers out there who are strongly resisting finding out why horses that they gave up on can now work. I have no respect whatsoever for professionals who don't maintain a curiosity about new ways of treating old diseases, especially when the number of case studies they could find is now very, very considerable.

I don't agree with your analysis as to the causes of navicular syndrome being genetic. I am convinced from the research which has been done that the cause is a toe first landing. Where genetics comes into it is that some horses may be more predisposed to develop a toe first landing, or to develop tendon/ligament damage if they have a toe first landing. But horses aren't genetically predisposed to land toe first, and in the overwhelming majority of cases where they do, it's the shoes that cause it. The proof of that for me is that if you remove the shoes the horse reverts to a heel first landing as soon as it has a strong enough heel, often within days.

Teddyt I'm not sure if you are aware of the latest research. You are talking about navicular syndrome as if it is a disease of the bone when it is now widely recognised that it is a disease of the soft tissues. MRI scans on live horses show that it starts with lesions in the DDFT and that degeneration of the navicular bone is only present when there is also damage to the DDFT - ie. the tendon damage comes first and the navicular bone damage comes later. Research on dead horses has confirmed that the toe first landing causes the tendon damage by mounting cadaver legs in rigs landing either heel first or toe first. In the toe first arrangement the ddft snaps after a large number of repetitions. In the heel first, the hoof wears out.

That's another reason why I don't intend to pay for xrays on this horse. It's pointless. His problems were probably actually in the DDFT and I really cannot stomach paying out £1000 for an MRI scan to prove that's gone. And how pointless it would be to pay to call a vet to a horse who is now trotting ten metre circles in our schooling session this morning :) ?

I think there are a number of problems going on in the "barefoot as navicular syndrome" treatment arena at the moment. One of the biggest is that if we admit that it works, then we also have to admit that over the course of their working lives vets and farriers have needlessly condemned to death many horses. It is pointless for more horses to die so we can avoid the pain of admitting to ourselves that the ones which are already dead died in vain. To vets and farriers who don't believe in a barefoot rehab, I would plead, please, please open your minds. I am completely untrained. I learnt to trim from a book. I don't have the best facilities. I have no medical or veterinary training or background. If I could do it, why couldn't the big, very reputable equine-only vet practice who made an appointment to put my rehab to sleep ten weeks ago?
 

baeloclaudia

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Go steady - the vet never recomended putting the horse to sleep and I don't want people thinking that.

Just because I had decided to ask him to do it - is NOT the same thing.
I had given up on the horse - not the vet. He may well have not agreed to my request!!

It is sadly, that kind of comment that p***** off a vet who has only ever done his best, and is not necessary.
 
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cptrayes

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I'm really sorry that it upset you, of all people, Baeloclaudia, and I accept that neither your vet nor farrier may have given up on him in his particular case, but it IS getting necessary to say these things as a general point. Today I received some photos by email of from a person whose vet has told her that she will cripple her horse if she attempts to cure it barefoot. There is nothing in the photos so suggest that it will be harmed at all by trying it, but he is trying to scare her off doing it. He's far from alone. The trimming organisations now have got to a stage where they cannot afford to upset the "establishment" because their future depends on working with them. So they can't say anything now to suggest that some vets and farriers are giving people the wrong advice. Since I'm not a member of any organisation like that, I can, and I really do think we have got to a stage where the numbers of examples mean that vets and farriers need to stop giving up on horses and open their minds to a barefoot rehab.
 
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