Navicular Syndrome Discussion - Do they really come sound?

[Holly7]

Hi All,

I know that there have been a million threads/discussions on Navicular already but I am really struggling to find out whether any horses that have been diagnosed and have been successfully treated (either barefoot or rehab farrier) have actually stayed sound and for how long.

What I actually mean by this is that they either returned to their previous work fully or became a field sound ornament or had their work load changed to accommodate the disease/syndrome.

Why do I ask ? you question yourselves. . . . well I won't bore with the entire story as it will take far too long, but the main points are :
1) Bred horse myself
2) Backed horse myself at 4
3) Competed at Dressage and she did two BE events at 80 & 90
4) Has been on and off lameness since 2 years old (is now 6)
5) Has been in and out of shoes - due to lameness issues
6) Has been treated as LGL in the past by vet (in the younger years)
7) Physio/chiro - have treated her numerous times and have said nothing more they can do if she continues to be lame
8) Ripped her bicep muscle following the BE event
9) Was on rehab work for 5 months. Started the trot work and she didn't feel right to me
10) More vet workups / scans / xrays - and diagnosed with navicular syndrome

I been advised to have an MRI done and to go down the rehab remedial farrier route. Farrier doesn't want to as he knows her feet well and has said will struggle to accommodate them via remedial route, and his "as a friend opinion" was not to bother and call it a day.

I have gone against vet anyhow as quote "MRI will tell us where we are but will not change the treatment so its for info use only". I can not afford to MRI for this reason only and I also don't see the point as her history shows constant issue (doesn't have the best confirmation either) with lameness either in or out of work. So I'm pretty sure we already have lots of soft tissue damage.

So I have decided to retire her, I have taken her shoes off and am allowing them to grow to how they want to grow to accommodate her confirmation (has worked on her mother - took 5 months - but shes a lot happier now) obviously we help of farrier who is happy with my decision.

So the problem - shes going bananas as she wants to work (have never had a horse who actually wants to work!!! her mother hates work must take after her dad!!) Shes slightly lame at the moment anyhow so wouldn't but my question is , do they come sound and stay sound, or is it as some literature states, come sound, then work again and go lame due to the corrosion/ligament/tissue damage still being caused?

Will I just find her one day totally crippled?
Following diagnosis what is the life expectancy?
Anyone have a horse that been diagnosed so young and still in proper work aged 20?

 

[Scarlett]

I'm not sure the barefoot rehab route has been round long enough to truly answer your question - but there are horses out there that have are sound and in work after a barefoot rehab, including my own mare. My opinion was that even if I resorted to shoes again at a later date I had nothing to loose. For what it's worth my vet didn't even suggest remedial shoeing - he said the only way to truly fix the feet is to remove shoes.

Nearly 3 years after diagnosis she is still bare, and so now are all my horses having seen the changes that can happen. I plan to compete her again next year and have no intention of shoeing.

Have you been on the Rockley blog?

 

[Holly7]

Yes I've looked at the Rockley site but none really answer the questions I have going around in my head.

For your mare - what type of work is she currently in? Schooling? or hacking? What type of competitions are you hoping to do?

Of all the things I have read etc, people have said that their horses are back in work and are sound, but I am thinking are they still sound because the day has not come yet when they will break down again? or are they sound because the work that they are doing is not have any detrimental effect on the tissues and navicular bursa area?

Sorry if that sounds odd, on discussion with my farrier he told me of other clients he has and their horses have navicular, and for some they are sound, but because they are sound, they are pushed back into competitions as the owners see it as they are all OK, then they break, go back through rehab (not 100% whether he was just talking about shod clients or barefoot aswell) and then come sound, only for the owner to do the same thing as to them they are all OK again. In his words theres only so many times I can put the wheels back on!

Not that I am against putting a horse back to competition work - but this is why I have so many questions and my head is whirling!

I guess I'm trying to work out whether I now have two field ornaments (which if I have then that is not an issue) or whether I could compete the navicular one again? but am worried that I am actually doing harm (but cause we cant see it we don't think about it)

(other field ornament is her mother, EMS, permanent LGL, cushings, bone spavin in both hock joints, prone to stomach ulcers on the bottom of the stomach not the top and I swear she is going blind)

 

[Scarlett]

She was aimed at eventing before and that's still my aim, she had a foal last summer and spent a lot of this year coming back into work slowly and doing lots of hacking, I'm increasing her work now so she is mostly schooling at the moment.

I have 2 other horses who my vet told me he didn't need to xray to see they had foot problems - they all had the same farrier - who have been barefoot the same length of time and are in full work on different surfaces inc jumping, xc etc. I'm hoping to go hunting this winter. They are all Tb and had what was many would have described as typical TB feet.

From what I understand the damage occurs because of the foot shape and the lack of stimulation to the back of the foot, but once the shoes are removed and with correct trimming, stimulation to the feet and the addition of the correct diet (and vits/minerals in some cases) the foot shape will change, the foot will become stronger and the reason for the original injury will be removed, which in my mind will help decrease the chances of it happening again.

My horses feet have all changed hugely. I didn't realise how bad they were until I see how good they are now.

 

[Scarlett]

Sorry, meant to say - you really need to look at the feet and find out why it happened, then you can work towards eliminating the cause. Do you have any pictures of your horses feet?

 

[cptrayes]

My first one stayed sound for six years until he died of colic. My second is on five years now, with a full workload including jumping. There's one at Rockley hunting after five years, I think. I know of another on three years close by. I think we can be pretty certain that barefoot rehab works, myself.

If your mare is sound enough to walk, I'd start working her, it is necessary for the strengthening of the back half of the foot where the injuries are. The condition on the bone on x Ray is usually irrelevant. Good luck.

 

[criso]

From what I understand the damage occurs because of the foot shape and the lack of stimulation to the back of the foot, but once the shoes are removed and with correct trimming, stimulation to the feet and the addition of the correct diet (and vits/minerals in some cases) the foot shape will change, the foot will become stronger and the reason for the original injury will be removed, which in my mind will help decrease the chances of it happening again.

That plus many of these horses are landing toe first putting an unnatural strain on the internal structures of the foot. If you can get them landing heel first to take this pressure , this makes them less likely to strain the area again. I suspect the cases your farrier is talking about are rested so that the injury heals but the fundamental weakness in the foot and movement are not addressed so the same happens again.


I have an ex Rockley horse. Mine was fine jumping and cross country and did not re-injure in two years however then had to retire due to a shoulder injury.


One other comment. Point 6 you say she has been treated as LGL.

I am in contact with other rehabs. One of the things the majority seem to struggle with is sensitivity to grass and many find they need to get on top of this so the horse can develop the best possible foot.

If you have specific questions that are not answered on the Rockley blog, (they probably have come up before but a blog is not always the easiest place to search), you could try contacting them, asking on the facebook page.

 

[Holly7]

I agree that the feet change (have noticed this with mum).

Yes I have taken pictures though they are not the best as they are rough ones from my phone. I will take better ones tomorrow and also take a picture of the sole and frog view. How do I actually post pictures ?

With regards to why its happened, all I've been told is she is very close in front, not the best confirmation, and she was prone to it happening. Whilst growing up she often went lame following her trim. Vets put it down to low grade lammy as her mother was suffering from it at the time and got diagnosed with EMS/IR so they said its possibly hereditary (not that Im convinced by that). Mum has since been diagnosed with cushings (which I new she had 3 years before the ACTH levels showed it!)

They are both on low sugar/starch diets, Maggie has been since one/two years old due to mum being ill so much and currently they only get a handful of molasses free chop (this is the lowest sugar/starch one Ive found), lite balancer, codlvine joint supplement and formula for feet. (joint supplement more for mum, but have noticed that mags now doesn't make a clicking noise in her back legs).

Have you had any set backs during your increase in schooling work?

 

[Holly7]

Thanks for all responses.

I have looked at this and I am convinced that she is landing toe first still. I looked at the water marks from walking her last night and her back feet are perfect prints of frog and hoof wall, whereas her front feet looked just like circles with no frog imprint - so am I correct that that means she is toe first?

 

[criso]

Thanks for all responses.

I have looked at this and I am convinced that she is landing toe first still. I looked at the water marks from walking her last night and her back feet are perfect prints of frog and hoof wall, whereas her front feet looked just like circles with no frog imprint - so am I correct that that means she is toe first?

TBH the only way I can tell is to film on my phone. Find a smooth level concrete stretch. Get down to floor level and ask someone to lead past. In borderline cases you may find you need to slow the footage or I sometimes freeze and advance frame by frame.

Again Rockley will have lots of examples what you want your film to look like.

 

[Holly7]

I'll try and do that to this weekend as well.

If she had been MRI'd and it came back with all the usual soft tissue damage, how long would you leave her before starting walk work, or would you just commence it?

Some days she appears slightly lame (some times I can hear it of the foot fall but not actually see it as its not that noticeable) would you still walk them with this?

Currently she is out in the day weather permitting - we are on clay soil so fields get easily waterlogged and become boggy if not careful. Plus Mums (field mate) is going through depressing with the cushings so ends up just standing there for hours on end which is then no good for her stomach so they end up having to come in to make mum eat. ( I no its not best, cant wait for spring so that they can stay out - grass watch permitting - normally end up making long paths for them to roam in as opposed to a fat patch limited grazing postage stamp!)

 

[Scarlett]

Have you had any set backs during your increase in schooling work?

No and I don't expect there to be. TBH 3 years in and 4 horses later I feel quite confident about it all. Her feet
are far from perfect but we lost the best part of the summer due to gut issues/LGL which are being addressed.

The issues we had with her movement - short, choppy stride and reluctance to flex longitudinally - are much improved and she has put muscle on in places she never could before.

 

[cptrayes]

Thanks for all responses.

I have looked at this and I am convinced that she is landing toe first still. I looked at the water marks from walking her last night and her back feet are perfect prints of frog and hoof wall, whereas her front feet looked just like circles with no frog imprint - so am I correct that that means she is toe first?

Not necessarily, it just means her frogs aren't ground bearing. I would start walking her immediately, in hand if necessary. I've had one who had already been barefoot a long time and was still lame and toe first. Four weeks walking on roads two days in three and he was heel first, three months and he was completely sound.

 

[ester]

I'm not convinced all horses that go the Rockley/similar route end up sound and comfortable to the point of say jumping/eventing/hunting. I think some do still struggle a bit when they go home and beyond probably partly because they don't have the best of feet/are sugar sensitive/owners can't provide the same sort of set up and need to find out what works best, to trim/to self trim etc, but I do think they all end up better out of shoes than they were in them, I just think (and have had similar chats with trimmer) that expectations need to be that sometimes it will work fab, sometimes it will be a bit more difficult/complicated/incomplete if that makes sense and I think most owners are really positive about it because horse is at least better even if not returning to a particularly heavy workload.

My lad is bare having been lame in shoes and is hunting etc but didn't have navicular- I got him walking out bare in hand before he was sound, 10 min to start then increasing. He front soles are never going to be as concave as we'd like them and that means he can feel some ground types a bit more- funnily enough not when hunting though

 

[Andalucian]

I have 2 with navicular diagnosis of varying degrees at 10 after 7 years in shoes. Both came sound very quickly barefoot and have evented, dressaged, fun rides, etc ever since, now both almost 20 and bounce about like 6 year olds.

You need knowledge, good advice and a good environment but at 6 years old I very much think you stand a good chance. Your farrier sounds like he "knows" what happens to navicular horses in remedial shoes.......it ain't good. Listen to him.

 

[tallyho!]

My boy still sound and he went bf in 2010.

 

[Holly Hocks]

My horse was diagnosed with navicular disease (not syndrome) in 2010 - ie navicular bone disease. I went against vets advice and took her barefoot. A couple of years ago she had x-rays re lameness which at the time the vet thought was the navicular disease deteriorating (it turned out to be an abscess!). The vet said that that there was NO sign of navicular disease on these following x-rays. Unfortunately I don't have the original x-rays as they were done at the vet hospital as would have loved to have compared them.

My horse returned to low level dressage and hacking and came sound - however she has issues with hind limb suspensories now which means she is off work with that now!

 

[Leg_end]

Full story of my horse's diagnosis, barefoot rehab and return to work is on our blog below but he was diagnosed in Aug 12 and is now in harder work than he was prior to diagnosis. We evented this season and the plan is to do the same next season. His xrays have shown an improvement to the original damage.

 

[Sam_J]

Whilst growing up she often went lame following her trim.

This would concern me. Did you discuss it with your farrier?

 

[tallyho!]

Gosh yes, I would be concerned too in addition to Sam_J about farrier trimming and sore after.

 

[Orangehorse]

Certainly in the early days at Rockley Farm, many of the horses going there had an appointment with the knacker the following week, so Rockley was literally their last chance.

I guess that some might struggle a bit without the dedicated set-up, but they can always wear boots.

There is enough evidence on the H & H forum that horses do come sound and carry on working after a barefoot rehab. I know one, after 12 months of injections and remedial farriery, the vet was content that the horse should be PTS as he hadn't improved, but as an 8 year old the owner tried the barefoot route, with advice, not removing the shoes immediately for instance, looking at the diet. After a mere few weeks the horse was sound and is now 17 and competiting in endurance. Due to his foot conformation he needs boots sometimes, but he is sound and doing hard competition and still alive.

Many of the horses that have chosen this route are older, in their teens, so they may well return to work, and competition but their work load is probably going to get less rather than more. There are many other reasons a horse may injure itself and not be able to jump and gallop, apart from having painful feet.

OP, really what are the alternatives?

 

[ester]

That's true Orangehorse, Frank was 19 when his shoes came off I think, 21 now. I am fussy about what surfaces I jump on now but that is as much due to his age than his feet/he doesn't need to jump on a regular basis any more, just for fun.

 

[tallyho!]

OP, really what are the alternatives?

Exactly. What could be more natural than taking shoes off? Once you do it, you'll ask yourself why you didn't do it in the first place like so many other people before you. Just like me.

It may or may not be painless, as some horses will have an underlying thrush issue or thin soles perhaps but there's enough about it now that it need not be the case. There will be someone no doubt, near you that is willing to hold your hand. I bet your vet or a vet near you could recommend either a farrier or a qualified trimmer that has lots of barefoot rehabs on their books that are sound and competing.

In my experience both on here and in RL is that, yes, remedial farriery can take you so far... but it cannot address that fundamental navicular issue of restriction. Why? Because the very form and nature of a shoe is restriction.

 

[miss_wilson]

My mare was diagnosed 18 months ago, i took her shoes off and turned her away for the winter, this year we have been to camp, done fun rides, farm rides, jumping lessons etc. She had previously done BE80/90, I am sure she still would do this but i am more than happy to just go and have fun as long as I can still ride her!!

 

[Clannad48]

Our DWB mare was diagnosed with Navicular Syndrome in her front feet in 2007 - we had all the x-rays/mri scans to confirm it - we started off with remedial shoeing and medication - however she remained lame. After consultation between the vet and farrier we took the decision to try her being barefoot and turned her away for 3 months. After an initial 'footiness' on the gravel path to the field she was sound and has been ever since. In the last 6 years she has competed at dressage, showjumping, cross country, sponsored rides and now competes at Endurance (barefoot and without hoof boots). She has the strongest feet ever and we are often complemented on them at the vet/farrier check at Endurance competitions.

 

[cptrayes]

These are great stories and I'm really pleased the horses are back in work. Can I just point out though that some horses don't come sound until they work, walked like a dog if need be. So don't give up if you've turned your horse away and it stays unsound.

 

[Holly7]

Hi Everyone,

OP here. Glad to read all responses.

With regards to "she went lame when younger following trims" - yes, questioned with farrier and truthfully I would put it down to sugar sensitivity & gaining to much weight - but - vet also told me she was flat footed and soft soled, farrier said sensitive feet - watch her weight. So probably was LGL but then also wouldn't have helped her being overweight either!

I am happy with my decision to go shoeless. I took her mother shoeless 4/5 months ago and at times she is sore over the stones to the field - but that will probably be to do with all of her aliments (cushings, EMS, LGL) I believe.

I am happy for Mags to be shoeless and I think this is the best option for her, just as she is going do-lally I wanted people experience of horses that have come right and those who haven't.

In my head I question whether the diagnosis is correct, but given that I wont MRI I guess I wont know. I am hoping that with starting to hand walk she will come sound and I will be able to bring her back into work. My farrier is happy about shoeless but when I mentioned coming back into work that's when he questioned whether its right or not, as per previous thread re: the horse that ended up not being able to refixed time and time again.

I guess I am worried that I bring her back into work and it all goes wrong as I have gone against vets advice.

 

[Sheep]

I guess I am worried that I bring her back into work and it all goes wrong as I have gone against vets advice.

I followed vets advice and it went wrong The problem was better - slightly - for a very short period. However the improvements were very short lived and the improvement since removing the shoes has been significantly better, and is lasting, unlike the conventional approach. We still aren't quite there yet.. but we are moving in the right direction.

 

[Holly7]

And are you hoping to ride your horse again?

 

[Sheep]

And are you hoping to ride your horse again?

Yep, he initially came back in to work in June but his feet went through enormous changes in July/Aug time and he didn't feel right, so I turned him away to do his thing. Now he is much happier and confident across various surfaces, I have started long reining him again with the intention of bringing him back into work in February.

I am in no rush with him, he owes me nothing and we have a combination of issues to work through. I suppose strictly speaking we aren't 'navicular' as his problems are apparently in the coffin joint but given the state of his feet when I got him, I am sure he probably has a number of soft tissue issues thrown in there for good measure.

ETA he is sound enough at present for light hacking, however given his issues I would like to shift a bit of weight first to make things as easy as possible for him and also give him a good opportunity to muscle up from the floor before asking too much of him.