Navicular / toe first landing

[Leam_Carrie]

Hello,

My mare has been diagnosed with navicular (mild bi-lateral front feet (with nerve blocks) lameness on circle on hard ground. There’s changes visible to the bone with x-rays. She’s had treatment - steroids and osphos - and has remedial shoeing. We’re also doing in hand work (long reining, poles etc.).

She seems to be looking worse - when I filmed her she was clearly landing toe first in walk. We’re back at the vets on Friday.

I’m interested in what others have done to see what I should ask the vet. Two things on my mind are at what point to claim loss of use and whether sending her to Rockley for barefoot rehab is an option. Interested in others experiences…

Thanks everyone.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Mine sounds similar he had a mild change in the bone and he had osphos and steroids, my vet wanted remedial shoes but after researching it I decided to take them off.

He only had fronts on so they came off and he had about 3 months in the field and was completely sound, I started riding him and took it slowly I am careful on hard ground I don't jump him, I mainly school him now as he doesn't like hacking that much.

He was diagnosed in 2015 and his been fine his 16 now and his never needed any further treatment.

What shoes has he got on now?

 

[lynz88]

Sounds familiar. I went with remedial shoeing and want to take them off altogether as it has made the toe first landing even worse and he's not happy.

 

[Leam_Carrie]

Mine sounds similar he had a mild change in the bone and he had osphos and steroids, my vet wanted remedial shoes but after researching it I decided to take them off.

He only had fronts on so they came off and he had about 3 months in the field and was completely sound, I started riding him and took it slowly I am careful on hard ground I don't jump him, I mainly school him now as he doesn't like hacking that much.

He was diagnosed in 2015 and his been fine his 16 now and his never needed any further treatment.

What shoes has he got on now?

That’s really interesting (and encouraging). She has on aluminium heart bars with pads underneath.

 

[paddi22]

I'm another who ended up taking shoes off a navicular horse. he came sound, was way more comfortable and is back out eventing. The remedial shoes made him worse!

 

[ycbm]

I've taken two freebies that hadn't come sound with conventional remedial shoeing and medication and they came sound with a barefoot rehab. There are of course many others which have gone through barefoot rehabs.

I hope your vets told you that changes to the bone don't correlate with lameness? Many sound horses will have changes to the bone, and navicular syndrome lameness is normally caused by soft tissue injury. Those soft tissue injuries, if caused by a weak back half to the foot/long toe/poor lateral balance are easier to resolve by strengthening the foot. And the easiest way to do that is to make it work without shoes on.
.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

That’s really interesting (and encouraging). She has on aluminium heart bars with pads underneath.

Honestly I would take the shoes off try and get her barefoot put her on a supplement like equimins or pro balance from progressive earth, you might have to boot her at first to get her comfortable there are lots of threads on here about it.

 

[Annagain]

Mine was diagnosed 14 years ago. I decided to try remedial shoeing with the intention of taking them off if he didn't improve. I figured it made more sense to try that first rather that than going through the barefoot transition only to find that it didn't help and put shoes back on him. The shoeing (with wedges) did help him a lot and he remained in work (although we never really jumped again - he wasn't an easy horse to jump and I couldn't do to to him knowing it might be hurting him.) until last year when he retired at 24 with coffin joint arthritis and sidebone. He's had his shoes off since then and is remarkably sound (although whether he would remain sound if he started work again, I don't know and, at 25, I have no intention of finding out!) I think there's lot more knowledge and research around now on barefoot and I probably would go down that route if I was in the same position again.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

I think it really depends how bad it is my friend had a big warmblood who was diagnosed at 13 he was competing advanced medium at the time, he had steroids and still had shoes on but he didn't compete at that level any more but she managed him with light schooling and hacking and he went on for years, I actually did a few showing classes with him over the years, he was very slightly pigeon toed but it didn't seem to cause much problem.

 

[Leam_Carrie]

Thanks everyone.

The vet did explain that horses with bone changes can be sound and those without can be lame. We discussed an MRI but thought using the money for treatment would be better.

Will talk to him about going barefoot and whether it would be worth seeing if Rockley think she is a suitable case. Equally sounds like it’s time to claim loss of use as unlikely to be doing what she was.

it’s so helpful hearing other’s experiences.

 

[HashRouge]

Thanks everyone.

The vet did explain that horses with bone changes can be sound and those without can be lame. We discussed an MRI but thought using the money for treatment would be better.

Will talk to him about going barefoot and whether it would be worth seeing if Rockley think she is a suitable case. Equally sounds like it’s time to claim loss of use as unlikely to be doing what she was.

it’s so helpful hearing other’s experiences.

If she is insured, your insurance company may contribute towards cost of going to Rockley if your vet recommends it. Certainly worth asking! Be prepared that your vet might not know about Rockley and might be quite tied to conventional methods of remedial shoeing. You might need to ask them to look at the website properly and possibly even see if it can be arranged for them to speak to Nic.

Ultimately, Nic doesn't do anything that can't be achieved at home BUT she has much better facilities than most of us can manage on normal livery yards, particularly when it comes to grazing and encouraging movement across varied surfaces. There are a few of us on here who have ex-Rockley horses - I'm one, and I think j1ffy and Boulty are others. My Rockley horse went with a diagnosis of navicular and had some real soundness issues, and Rockley was a real godsend for him. Remedial shoeing had ended up with him almost crippled from mechanical laminitis. We were not one of the lucky ones that managed to return to ridden work long-term, but this was due to complications in other areas - arthritis in his hocks, problems with is sacroiliac joint, lots of trouble with ulcers. However, he has is a very sound field ornament and has been for many years, and I don't think he would even have managed this without Nic's help. If you're interested in seeing his blog entries just let me know and I'll try and find them .

 

[Leam_Carrie]

If she is insured, your insurance company may contribute towards cost of going to Rockley if your vet recommends it. Certainly worth asking! Be prepared that your vet might not know about Rockley and might be quite tied to conventional methods of remedial shoeing. You might need to ask them to look at the website properly and possibly even see if it can be arranged for them to speak to Nic.

Ultimately, Nic doesn't do anything that can't be achieved at home BUT she has much better facilities than most of us can manage on normal livery yards, particularly when it comes to grazing and encouraging movement across varied surfaces. There are a few of us on here who have ex-Rockley horses - I'm one, and I think j1ffy and Boulty are others. My Rockley horse went with a diagnosis of navicular and had some real soundness issues, and Rockley was a real godsend for him. Remedial shoeing had ended up with him almost crippled from mechanical laminitis. We were not one of the lucky ones that managed to return to ridden work long-term, but this was due to complications in other areas - arthritis in his hocks, problems with is sacroiliac joint, lots of trouble with ulcers. However, he has is a very sound field ornament and has been for many years, and I don't think he would even have managed this without Nic's help. If you're interested in seeing his blog entries just let me know and I'll try and find them .

That’s great to hear from someone that has sent a horse there. Sounds like you really improved your horses quality of life. It would be great to see the blog entries.

I keep my horse at home so could set up a track and add pea gravel areas where I’ve got hard standing… but am limited to about 3 acres. It feels like Rockley might give her the best chance of recovery.

 

[HashRouge]

I've had quite a lot of fun digging up the old blogposts! As you can see from the dates, he was there a fair few years ago!
First blogpost: https://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2012/04/legend-arrives-at-rockley.html
Second post: https://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2012/05/legendary-hoof-changes.html
Third post: https://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2012/06/bizarre-feet-of-legend.html
Ready to go home: https://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2012/08/hes-legend.html

His feet did some very odd things while he was at Rockley and he ended up staying there a bit longer than most horses. I think that Nic gives the horses a real head start when it comes to growing better, stronger hooves. It's not that you couldn't do it at home, but Nic gets them in a better place, much more quickly than most people could and then it is easier to carry on their rehab when they come home.

 

[Leam_Carrie]

I've had quite a lot of fun digging up the old blogposts! As you can see from the dates, he was there a fair few years ago!
First blogpost: https://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2012/04/legend-arrives-at-rockley.html
Second post: https://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2012/05/legendary-hoof-changes.html
Third post: https://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2012/06/bizarre-feet-of-legend.html
Ready to go home: https://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2012/08/hes-legend.html

His feet did some very odd things while he was at Rockley and he ended up staying there a bit longer than most horses. I think that Nic gives the horses a real head start when it comes to growing better, stronger hooves. It's not that you couldn't do it at home, but Nic gets them in a better place, much more quickly than most people could and then it is easier to carry on their rehab when they come home.

That’s fascinating. The pictures of his feet, incredible shapes. What are his feet like now (shape-wise)?

 

[HashRouge]

That’s fascinating. The pictures of his feet, incredible shapes. What are his feet like now (shape-wise)?

They're fairly normal tbh. They are a bit flatter than would be ideal, but he is retired to the field so not optimum conditions for perfect feet. He's very sound on them though . If I can catch him tomorrow (he's a little toe rag!) then I'll snap you some pics.

 

[GinaGeo]

I've had quite a lot of fun digging up the old blogposts! As you can see from the dates, he was there a fair few years ago!
First blogpost: https://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2012/04/legend-arrives-at-rockley.html
Second post: https://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2012/05/legendary-hoof-changes.html
Third post: https://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2012/06/bizarre-feet-of-legend.html
Ready to go home: https://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2012/08/hes-legend.html

His feet did some very odd things while he was at Rockley and he ended up staying there a bit longer than most horses. I think that Nic gives the horses a real head start when it comes to growing better, stronger hooves. It's not that you couldn't do it at home, but Nic gets them in a better place, much more quickly than most people could and then it is easier to carry on their rehab when they come home.

Agree that these are fascinating! Thank you for sharing

 

[PSD]

I've had quite a lot of fun digging up the old blogposts! As you can see from the dates, he was there a fair few years ago!
First blogpost: https://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2012/04/legend-arrives-at-rockley.html
Second post: https://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2012/05/legendary-hoof-changes.html
Third post: https://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2012/06/bizarre-feet-of-legend.html
Ready to go home: https://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2012/08/hes-legend.html

His feet did some very odd things while he was at Rockley and he ended up staying there a bit longer than most horses. I think that Nic gives the horses a real head start when it comes to growing better, stronger hooves. It's not that you couldn't do it at home, but Nic gets them in a better place, much more quickly than most people could and then it is easier to carry on their rehab when they come home.

This is amazing!

 

[lynz88]

I've had quite a lot of fun digging up the old blogposts! As you can see from the dates, he was there a fair few years ago!
First blogpost: https://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2012/04/legend-arrives-at-rockley.html
Second post: https://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2012/05/legendary-hoof-changes.html
Third post: https://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2012/06/bizarre-feet-of-legend.html
Ready to go home: https://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2012/08/hes-legend.html

His feet did some very odd things while he was at Rockley and he ended up staying there a bit longer than most horses. I think that Nic gives the horses a real head start when it comes to growing better, stronger hooves. It's not that you couldn't do it at home, but Nic gets them in a better place, much more quickly than most people could and then it is easier to carry on their rehab when they come home.

This was a great read!

 

[HelenBack]

I'm another who found these blogs fascinating! Can I ask how you maintained him when he came home and whether you managed to keep him self-trimming or not? My horse seems to prefer minimal or no trimming but is also ridden in hoof boots so that can be quite challenging at times!

Anyway, not wanting distract from the original post. OP, mine went to a rehab place when he first went lame and came out of shoes. It wasn't Rockley but my insurance company (NFU) did agree to pay half the costs. I had to get my vet to write to them but he was very supportive so that was quite straightforward. I then had to provide some further documentation from the place he went to. It was all a bit of a faff and I had to push quite hard but we did get there in the end.

Although my horse went to a different place I would agree that being there gave him a real head start and he came back after three months with his feet in a much better state than they probably would have been in our soggy field in a wet winter!

I also found it quite overwhelming when he first went lame as he was diagnosed with quite a few things all at the same time. Although I really hated sending him away I think it did help me to have a bit of break and get my head around things and then when he came home I felt strong enough to deal with it all. That might not apply to you as you might be more resilient than me (I just don't cope when things go wrong with my animals!) but I thought it worth mentioning just in case it might be a factor in your decision making.

 

[Leam_Carrie]

Anyway, not wanting distract from the original post. OP, mine went to a rehab place when he first went lame and came out of shoes. It wasn't Rockley but my insurance company (NFU) did agree to pay half the costs. I had to get my vet to write to them but he was very supportive so that was quite straightforward. I then had to provide some further documentation from the place he went to. It was all a bit of a faff and I had to push quite hard but we did get there in the end.

Although my horse went to a different place I would agree that being there gave him a real head start and he came back after three months with his feet in a much better state than they probably would have been in our soggy field in a wet winter!

I didn’t realise there were other barefoot rehabs. Can I ask where your’s went?

(and completely understand what you mean about being emotionally overwhelmed - it’s a big adjustment)

 

[HashRouge]

I'm another who found these blogs fascinating! Can I ask how you maintained him when he came home and whether you managed to keep him self-trimming or not? My horse seems to prefer minimal or no trimming but is also ridden in hoof boots so that can be quite challenging at times!

We did manage to keep him mostly self-trimming for a while, but we had a farrier (who works with Nic) on hand to keep an eye and do a little bit of rasping if needed. He lost his flippers completely once home with self-trimming, despite lots of people telling us to "cut that toe back".

This is a month after he came home:



This is several months later - unfortunately taken from the front but you can see that the long toe has completely gone. He was completely self-trimming at this point. We did always struggle to keep him completely rock crunching on rough surfaces, but a lot of that was down to diet and management. We struggled finding the balance between having him turned out as much as possible (good for his ulcers/ crib biting) but not having too much grass/ sugar. I think we'd have ended up using boots periodically had he not developed his other issues and ended up retired.



Unfortunately because he was retired due to assorted other issues (hocks/ SI/ ulcers) he isn't self-trimming now. We have a very good farrier though and he has stayed sound in both fronts.

LC, sorry to hijack your thread a bit! I know she has responded on here already but if you've got any specific questions/ doubts etc I'd recommend ycbm as she really knows her stuff when it comes to barefoot rehab.

 

[Leam_Carrie]

LC, sorry to hijack your thread a bit! I know she has responded on here already but if you've got any specific questions/ doubts etc I'd recommend ycbm as she really knows her stuff when it comes to barefoot rehab.

Not hijacked at all - have found all your posts interesting (and nice to see others have as well)

 

[ycbm]

I'd recommend ycbm as she really knows her stuff when it comes to barefoot rehab.

That's very kind of you. I am not an expert but if it's about doing it at home with no facilities, then it's walk walk walk on tarmac roads in hand until you have heel first landing, then walk walk walk ridden until you have sound in trot, and then keep it going. Stopping can cause adhesions and when adhesions snap they lame the horse again, so committing to 2 days in 3 for at least 6 months is, ime, essential.

The cautionary note I would add is that if there are bone spurs (outward growth, inward pits are not the issue), the outcome is far from guaranteed.
.

 

[HelenBack]

I didn’t realise there were other barefoot rehabs. Can I ask where your’s went?

(and completely understand what you mean about being emotionally overwhelmed - it’s a big adjustment)

Mine went to a track livery that was fairly local to me so I could still go and see him while he was away. They were more a general barefoot rehab type place rather than specialising in navicular type issues but they'd had quite a few horses there with various complicated issues. They took a different approach as they did trim and they used boots, which I was more comfortable with, even though it turns out he doesn't really cope with trimming!

I can PM you details later on if you'd like?

We did manage to keep him mostly self-trimming for a while, but we had a farrier (who works with Nic) on hand to keep an eye and do a little bit of rasping if needed. He lost his flippers completely once home with self-trimming, despite lots of people telling us to "cut that toe back".

This is a month after he came home:

View attachment 77935

This is several months later - unfortunately taken from the front but you can see that the long toe has completely gone. He was completely self-trimming at this point. We did always struggle to keep him completely rock crunching on rough surfaces, but a lot of that was down to diet and management. We struggled finding the balance between having him turned out as much as possible (good for his ulcers/ crib biting) but not having too much grass/ sugar. I think we'd have ended up using boots periodically had he not developed his other issues and ended up retired.

View attachment 77937

Unfortunately because he was retired due to assorted other issues (hocks/ SI/ ulcers) he isn't self-trimming now. We have a very good farrier though and he has stayed sound in both fronts.

LC, sorry to hijack your thread a bit! I know she has responded on here already but if you've got any specific questions/ doubts etc I'd recommend ycbm as she really knows her stuff when it comes to barefoot rehab.

This is really fascinating, thanks for sharing. You can see from the top photo that the toe will sort itself out eventually but I think you'd definitely have to be brave and have an understanding farrier to leave it alone and not chop it back! I've often wondered though whether people who's horses go to Rockley do manage to keep them self trimming when they come home so it's good to hear your experiences.

Even though mine is more comfortable ridden in boots I do walk him out in hand without them quite a lot so that he can have minimal intervention from the farrier. My farrier is not a barefoot specialist but likes to work with the owners to do what's best for the horse and he understands with mine that the less he can do the better. The nippers never go near him and it's always only a light rasp. I do sometimes wonder if I ought to brave it and just see what happens if I left it completely but I think I'm too much of a chicken!

 

[Leam_Carrie]

Mine went to a track livery that was fairly local to me so I could still go and see him while he was away. They were more a general barefoot rehab type place rather than specialising in navicular type issues but they'd had quite a few horses there with various complicated issues. They took a different approach as they did trim and they used boots, which I was more comfortable with, even though it turns out he doesn't really cope with trimming!

I can PM you details later on if you'd?

That would be fab if you could send details.

 

[HelenBack]

That would be fab if you could send details.

I will do so tomorrow, I didn't quite get round to it today sorry.

 

[Leam_Carrie]

I will do so tomorrow, I didn't quite get round to it today sorry.

Thank you.

The vet was pleased with progress yesterday and we’re able to restart ridden work shortly. I asked about barefoot he’s open to it, but wants her shod with the same shoes for another six weeks.