Navicular

Took some pictures last night of his feet now, so you can have a look at the before (02.03.10)

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and now (05.05.10) see if you can see much difference

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With underrun tight heels like that I'm not surprised he's lame! You can actually see the crushed lines of heel growth at the back. His heels will be sore to walk on, causing toe-first landing and all the stress and strain on the flexor tendons and the navicular bone that entails.

Until his heels improve and are comfortable to walk on, so he can land heel first as he's meant to, he's never going to be truly sound and you'll only be masking the symptoms. With some seriously good farrier-ing it might be possible to improve them enough, but it'll take a long time and a lot of effort (wedges and bars will make him temporarily more comfortable but in the long run are counter productive to actually fixing the problem)
 
Hi, just wanted to give you an update on how he is getting on.

I chucked him out in a flat field about 4 weeks ago right near the sea, I just left him and maybe once a week I took him for his 1/2 hr hack. I have then been on holiday for a week so he hasn’t really done much. I came back from holiday and decided to trot him up, he looked pretty sound on the straight so decided to get the vet out again!

He was shod 2 weeks ago with just heart bars on and no gel pads (yippee) farrier seemed to think that he didn’t need them anymore.

Vet cam out last Friday, we trotted him up and flexion tested him and he was sound on the straight, took him into the school and lunged him in trot, still short every now and again but the vet has said that he will probably always be like that? Soooo now I am allowed to bring him back into work slowly and start schooling again just no circles allowed, yay!! I will try and get some pics of his feet now to see the difference. :)
 
Its a pitty that more people dont understand that shoes can actually cause navicular. You dont get navicular on a wild horse. And its very rare on a barefoot horse.
It doesnt make sense to me to try to correct something with shoes, that was caused by shoes in the first place.
I dont agree with what the vet says, that thats just gonna be the way he goes. Why not actually try to correct the cause, and you correct the problem.
 
Jennyharvey said:
Its a pitty that more people dont understand that shoes can actually cause navicular. You dont get navicular on a wild horse. And its very rare on a barefoot horse.
It doesnt make sense to me to try to correct something with shoes, that was caused by shoes in the first place.
I dont agree with what the vet says, that thats just gonna be the way he goes. Why not actually try to correct the cause, and you correct the problem.
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Ive seen more than one disected cadaver from dead feral horses that appears to have navicular remodelling and ossification of the lateral cartilages. Largely due to negative palmer angle of the pedal bone I'd of thought.
 
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MattFranks said:
Ive seen more than one disected cadaver from dead feral horses that appears to have navicular remodelling and ossification of the lateral cartilages. Largely due to negative palmer angle of the pedal bone I'd of thought.
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That's interesting - do you have any more info on it? Do you know what state the horse was in before it died?
 
MattFranks said:
Ive seen more than one disected cadaver from dead feral horses that appears to have navicular remodelling and ossification of the lateral cartilages. Largely due to negative palmer angle of the pedal bone I'd of thought.
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Ye, if you had more info on this, it would be appreicated.
I suppose i should have said that shoes were a cause of navicular, but they are not the only cause. Poor hoofcare is the main cause, which, does include shoeing.
 
MattFranks said:
Ive seen more than one disected cadaver from dead feral horses that appears to have navicular remodelling and ossification of the lateral cartilages. Largely due to negative palmer angle of the pedal bone I'd of thought.
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Were the horses lame before they died? If not, then it would never have been diagnosed with navicular syndrome. There are probably several with the same navicular bone changes in every livery yard that aren't lame but they never get xrayed because - they aren't lame. Lateral cartilage ossification is a natural ageing phenomenon.

What generally causes the lameness found in "navicular syndrome" (now a very outmoded term since MRI diagnosis) is most often damage to the deep digital flexor tendon caused by a toe first landing, and next often by collateral ligament damage caused by foot imbalance. It's that rapid healing once the shoes are off that convinces me that they cause the syndrome in the first place.


Most toe first landing and imbalanced feet is seen in horses with shoes. It should be noted, too, that "imbalance" does not mean the shoe was not set level on the foot. It can often mean that the horse NEEDED an "imbalanced" foot in order to compensate for something not quite perfect higher in the body and that forcing it to work on a foot square to its leg made it lame.

Did you assume that the feral horses with navicular bone remodelling has negative coffin bone angle or was it measured while they were alive and on their feet before the tissues all shrank due to drying out from being dead or expanded due to decay?

I have heard of only one barefoot horse that had "navicular syndrome" (I'm sure there must be some others, but it's difficult to find them), actually identified by MRI as severe DDFT lesions. That horse had frogs that were suspended clear of the floor and a toe first landing. It has now been treated for around six weeks at a rehab yard , its frogs are on the floor and it is heel first landing, and surprise surprise, it's also much sounder.

It remains a fact that the overwhelming majority of horses suffering from "navicular sydrome" are shod, and also a fact that the vast majority of them come sound within months if not weeks (10 1/2 weeks in my case) of taking them barefoot with a good diet, the right work and a decent trim specific to that horse.
 
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Before I had even heard of the "barefoot horse" I asked someone if wild horses get navicular but didn't get an answer.

When I was growing up navicular was something that was in a veterinary book, but not really something that most people came across, it was something that typically older hunters suffered from. Of course in those days most horses had time off in the field with no shoes for part of the year. Now most horses are shod from age 4 and keep shoes on all year round, so their feet don't get a rest.
 
One was a bone colum only, seen during a lecture in America. Horse was apparently somewher IRO 12 - 15 yrs old, found dead. Xray of unloaded distal limb showed a -0.5 palmer angle. Extensive remodelling could be seen, and ossification along the upper palmer process. COD unknown, so no history. Foot was typically feral in appearance, ie looked very functional from the outside. Very healthy frog and bars, although very low heel, and typical natural wear patterns. I observed this in photos only.

Second horse was an Australian brumby, found alive seperated from the herd, acutely lame (subsequent xray revealed fractured P1, and swelling and wound was present). Horse was euthanased on site. Both forelimbs were removed and used by local farriers and vets for study. One limb(again unloaded, so I suppose that could affect the angle slightly) was xrayed and showed a +1.2 angle (not negative, but definately not whats considered healthy). Again, slight remodelling was present, along with associated DDFT lesion. Other limb wasnt xrayed but showed similar navicular lesions, plus ossification of the cartilages. I observed this first hand.
 
Oooh, DDFT lesions in a wild horse are interesting! Shame it also had a P1 fracture, which complicates the picture rather..... I would just love some seriously funded research into DDFT lesions in wild horses and barefoot rehabs in domestic ones. I'll just have to go and buy a Euro lottery ticket I guess :)
 
Wow them replies are very interesting, thanks.

As for shoes, do you reccommend that i take his shoes off then? I have spoken to my vet and farrier about this and non of them reccommend it? Maybe i need to ask why? I need to ride him on the roads regulary to keep him moving and he has very brittle feet so they would just break up without shoes on. I appreciate any advice.

Thanks
 
DGIN said:
Wow them replies are very interesting, thanks.

As for shoes, do you reccommend that i take his shoes off then? I have spoken to my vet and farrier about this and non of them reccommend it? Maybe i need to ask why? I need to ride him on the roads regulary to keep him moving and he has very brittle feet so they would just break up without shoes on. I appreciate any advice.

Thanks
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My Vet and Farrier were completely against it - vet is now amazed at the change in his feet and my farrier was at the yard the other day shoeing someone and took a look" at Frankie's feet. His comment was "oh my god, he's got heels now and said the break was the best thing I could have done for his feet.

Didn't tell him the break was permanent though.

I took the easy option though and had him rehabbed for me. I put boots on for the moment for really sharp stony tracks but he is fine on the roads and normal tracks and any other surfaces.
 
Anyone with barefoot knowledge will recommend you take his shoes off as it DOES work. But most 'traditional' types, and that most definintly inculdes vets and farriers, are horrified at the thought as horses MUST be shod, of course. It's just a lack of knowledge and an unwillingness to change.

BUT it's not just a case of whipping them off and hoping he gets on with it. It takes commitment and knowledge to make sure he's not sore. He will be sensitive at first but he should NOT be sore - many think it's 'ok' for them to be sore to begin with, which is rubbish: they only grow healthier stronger feet if they are using them correctly, and they can't use them correctly if they are sore.

And if you are new to barefoot horses you will probably need help and advise on how to make it work. Unless you are lucky with your farriers, they won't be able/willing to give the kind of indepth advise on management (sucessful barefoot-ing has very little to do with the trim and 99% to do with the horses diet and management) so getting a trimmer in would probably be a good idea.
 
Well..... When the only tool you have is a hammer...

Quite how casting the hoof in an inflexible and concussion generating shoe, providing mainly peripheral support, can help repair damaged soft tissue and associated bony changes is unclear to me.

Far better to let the hoof regrow naturally, in the shape the horse needs it to be to support the peculiarities of the column above it (and I see 0.5 deg palmar deviation a peculiarity of that horse rather than a pathology) and get into a shape where it is supporting rather than interfering with the balance requirements of the horse.

Left to themselves, they will balance their hooves the way that they need them - and the results are often interesting to see. You might see for instance that one back hoof throw more on the inside, and if you take it away the horse is not comfortable. One of my lad's feet looks uneven and a trimmer or farrier might even them up, but recent xrays say the M/L and D/P alignment are spot on perfect, he maintains it himself, take it away and he is unsound.

Shoes tend to impose an "ideal" on the horse - that's fine if it is an "ideal" horse - but how many of them really are? imho, the whole navicular/back of foot thing is caused by shoeing from an early age and preventing the development that occurs naturally in an unshod hoof

I'm very lucky - in my herd of 4, I have one who was shod from an early age and shod for 10 years of his life - and another who has never been shod. Same breeding, same type. The difference in the feet, and in particular the back half of the foot and heel are very clear. Much better development of the digital cusions, thicker palmar extensions, deeper and meatier heels...on the one that has never been shod. My herd has been bare for 4 years now

I have reached a point now where I see shoeing as something we have done for our convenience, and a major hidden welfare issue in the horse world. I wonder how many of these horses would be sound for life if we never put shoes on in the first place.

P.S. I used to be a strong traditional minded shoeing enthusiast, and then I fell in with a real bad crowd
 
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Hi all, i managed to take some pictures of his feet this morning (apologies for the mud as he was in the field) let me know if you can see an improvement. I am going to persevere with the shoes for now but would be prepared to give barfoot a go it he doesnt progress. :-)


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Hard to tell from these pics - but these feet look contracted to me. A time without shoes will help to "open out" the back of the foot - the decontraction will in turn help the whole navic syndrome.
 
They look like pretty typical 'shoe-sick' feet. Heels are VERY contracted and quite underrun too, with dogdey hoof axis angle. I'm not suprise the horse is heel-sore. They could be fixable with shoes but I would't even know where to start. They can most definetly be fixed barefoot, and fairly quickly too.
 
My thoughts (bearing in mind im going off limited photographs):

You look like you have a pretty bad central sulcus infection in the frogs for a start and contracted heels which will mean you have a very week digital cushion and soft tissue in the back of the foot.

They don't look like typical navicular feet though i.e. under-run, low heels, long toes.

My advice to you as a barefoot advocate would be to get the shoes off, treat the infections agressively, get a good EP out and start to handwalk on tarmac for 15 -20 mins a day - depending on lameness this could be with or without pads - and building up from there.

I would expect this foot to be rehabilitated in about 3 months with dedication.
 
I don't do subtle;)

They look like many shod feet you see - most owners THINK they look ok because they aren't cracked or split but in fact they are really quite damaged.

They don't look like typical navicular feet though i.e. under-run, low heels, long toes.
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I supect they are a lot longer toed than they currently look - that thick white hoof colour on the front (with otherwise black horn on chestnut legs) suggest the farrier has dumped a huge amount off the toe.
 
please read my 'good news navicular story!

ps my AEp treated my boy with Clean trax to get rid of whiteline disease that nobody else had spotted and he walked away sound from the treatment. i think that if this had been spotted before the x rays we would never have known about the navicular.

pps i have a TB and 4 months ago i would NEVER have considered barefoot. please try it!
 
rupertsmum said:
I feel so sorry for you. My TB has been diagnosed today with navicular and I'm totally devastated and I was just thinking that this time last year, who woul dhave thought that we'd be in this position.

some of the replies on here are really positive and are giving me some hope.

hope all goes well for you
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Gosh I forgot that I wrote this!!

Last week we won a riding horse class and next week we have an RoR qualifier!! He is totally sound within 12 weeks...... Barefoot is the reason why this happened, so many stories on here are about navicular horses with remedial shoeing, box rest etc and mine was out in the field as soon as I spoke to my barefoot trimmer ;)
 
I tried bar shoes on my girl but she just pulled them off all the time so decided to go barefoot. Best thing we ever did.
We gave her a good 6months off living out ( with the odd walk round the field) and she never showed any problems after this.

I really would recommend leaving out of work for a few months (our lived out for half the year) and see how he goes. Really worked well for my girl.
 
DGIN said:
Hi all, i managed to take some pictures of his feet this morning (apologies for the mud as he was in the field) let me know if you can see an improvement. I am going to persevere with the shoes for now but would be prepared to give barfoot a go it he doesnt progress. :-)


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OP the feet in these pictures look unhealthy to me. The toe has obviously been heavily rasped and possibly also the quarters. The top part of the foot is showing heavy event lines which are stretching at the heel. I don't know what you are feeding but if this hoof were on my horse I would check the diet first.

The heels appear very contracted and under all that shoe and pad probably have a hefty infection of the central sulcus. IMO the shoes and pads will not help this.

The diagnostics as described in an earlier post would appear insufficient for a concrete diagnosis of anything.

You may find (as has happened for others) that the caudal heel pain comes from the central sulcus infection and contracted heels. Fix these, improve the trim and you may find that all the expensive vet treatment and shoeing is not necessary.

Good luck and best wishes.
 
Ditto. Agree totally with LP.

Definite signs of a sheared heel in those photos, almost certainly with an infection in. With infected heels causing him pain he could easily give symptoms of navicular even if he does not have it. And if he does not have it yet, sore heals will easily give him it. Pads in that situation are simply a nightmare breeding ground for infection.
 
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