Navicular!

[Brightbay]

Personally, I'm sitting here eagerly waiting for the research showing the effectiveness of remedial shoeing in treating a whole variety of conditions, from caudal hoof pain, through tendon and ligament damage and "navicular" problems, right along to laminitis.

If anybody would like to point me to the properly planned studies, using correct controls, and with sufficient experimental power and decent effect sizes, I'd be delighted to see them.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

Rockley may be a successful business, but surely that isn't the point ? Why shy away from proper research and evidence ?
Surely that would be the ultimate goal for improving treatment. The Barefoot industry needs to look further than the next pay cheque to keep its growing market of trimming courses, trimmers and hoof boots.
There must be enough profit for a few MRI's ?

Its no good saying vets, farriers or even insurance companies should fund research, their income is assured. The new guys on the block need to invest in their own future profits.

The costs of following a group of horses through Rockley with annual follow up scans would then give the vet researchers a chance to find funding for further studies.

You're correct, I don't want Rockley to fail but I do want more than the accounts of people desperate to believe in something.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

My horse has been diagnosed with it. He has had tildren, is on navilox and is having remedial farriery. Good stories about others in the same situation going on to do normal work please? I am only allowed to ride him in walk for the next six weeks, building up to one hour. Hopeful of him making a good recovery but would love to hear about others experiences.

Hi One of my liveries has Navicular was diagnosed many years ago, he is still going strong at the age of 30.

As long as you have a good farrier on your side, that plays an important task. There will be ups and downs with Navicular days of pottery strides and slight lamness. Depends on how bad your horses Navicular is and what his feet are like. I Don't think l* ever put him on Navilox he is just on glucosomine and flexijoint and remedial shoes. She doesn't jump him or has jumped him in years , but then he hates jumping anyway, but he still hacks out and chucks in a buck.
She is carefull when the ground is hard, then she just walks him.

Good luck with your boy ..

 

[cptrayes]

Rockley may be a successful business, but surely that isn't the point ? Why shy away from proper research and evidence ?

It was you who suggested that they needed it as part of their business plan. They are a tiny business, they can't spare the time or money to go getting this research, and since they are the ones curing these horses I personally think that it is dependant upon the people whose very expensive treatments are NOT working to find out why. Rockley is too busy curing their failures.

Surely that would be the ultimate goal for improving treatment. The Barefoot industry needs to look further than the next pay cheque to keep its growing market of trimming courses, trimmers and hoof boots.
There must be enough profit for a few MRI's ?

There is no "barefoot industry". There are a few trimmers earning about an average wage, and a few boot supliers whose products are also used by people whose horses wear shoes. A single MRI is £1,000. The only people with that kind of money, and organisation, are the vets and farriers who are making very large profits out of remedial shoeing, diagnosis and medication.

Its no good saying vets, farriers or even insurance companies should fund research, their income is assured. The new guys on the block need to invest in their own future profits.

No, they don't. Very few people will shoot a horse because the vet and farrier have said so once they know about the success rates of barefoot rehabs. As long as we keep on telling people the anecdotal evidence, those with written off horses will try it out of desperation. And add even more to the anecdotal evidence until finally, one day, the insurers, all vets and all farriers will sit up and take notice.

There is no profit whatsoever for the non-existent "barefoot industry" in promoting research, though we would ALL love it to be done. Are you calling for the same research that remedial shoeing works, because that does not exist either, in spite of the fact that it is the treatment of first resort?

The costs of following a group of horses through Rockley with annual follow up scans would then give the vet researchers a chance to find funding for further studies.

Yes, it would. Are you going to stump up some cash for it?

You're correct, I don't want Rockley to fail but I do want more than the accounts of people desperate to believe in something.

Don't we all. Meanwhile I am actually prepared to believe in the sound horses that I see around me. I read posts like the one above with despair. The horse is fine, it's been well cared for by a farrier who knows what he is doing. Oh, well, it can't be ridden on hard ground, it can't jump, and it's lame on and off too

Sometime people are going to accept how many of the barefoot rehabs return to full work. They hunt, they jump, they event, on all types of ground, without lameness. Not all of them, no, but at the moment, anecdotally, something like four times the number that are resolved by conventional means.

The accounts, by the way, are not by people "desperate to believe in something". They are by people like me who can show you a horse that vets and a farrier said no more could be done for. 24 hours off a lethal injection, sent to me by a desperate owner. He hunts now, jumps, is a National show winner, has not had a lame day in approaching 2 years. You can call him and hundreds of others like him "anecdotal" if you wish. Me, I call it a miracle!

 

[Goldenstar]

Rockley may be a successful business, but surely that isn't the point ? Why shy away from proper research and evidence ?
Surely that would be the ultimate goal for improving treatment. The Barefoot industry needs to look further than the next pay cheque to keep its growing market of trimming courses, trimmers and hoof boots.
There must be enough profit for a few MRI's ?

Its no good saying vets, farriers or even insurance companies should fund research, their income is assured. The new guys on the block need to invest in their own future profits.

The costs of following a group of horses through Rockley with annual follow up scans would then give the vet researchers a chance to find funding for further studies.

You're correct, I don't want Rockley to fail but I do want more than the accounts of people desperate to believe in something.

A sound horse in work is all an owner needs.
Rockley does not need to prove anything they have a wait list of people wanting to send there horses.
Call me a cynic but what's in it for vets with a way forward without expensive drugs fortunes spent on diagnostics.
People who get to Rockley may be desperate for help or even to believe in something but all the owner wants is their horse painfree.
Many of these people will have spent fortunes on traditional treatments before this point.
However I am old to enough to remember old grooms who knew that the way to deal with heel pain was to chop off the toes and put on a hill for six months nothing is new under the sun.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

I read posts like the one above with despair. The horse is fine, it's been well cared for by a farrier who knows what he is doing. Oh, well, it can't be ridden on hard ground, it can't jump, and it's lame on and off too

Are you referring to my livery?????

if you are then :

it can't be ridden on hard ground

If you read my post properly he is ridden and hacked out, its just when the ground is hard he does not canter, which I might add allot of members would agree if their horses has lami or navicular or anything like that I bet non of them would canter on hard ground.

It can't jump??? again read my post properly. I said she doesn't jump him ie: the owner and The horse doesn't like jumping . THATS why she doesn't jump. Not because of the Navicular.

and it's lame on and off too

sheesh why don't you ready my reply to original poster

I said there will be ups and downs and going pottery, I was generally speaking.

 

[cptrayes]

Are you referring to my livery?????

I am yes. What you describe is not, in my critieria, a sound horse. I read your post as describing a horse who is sometimes pottery to an extent that it curtails what the owner can do with him. Did anyone ever try to find out how sound he may have come without his shoes?

Your description seems to me to be common to almost all the posts we get on this forum about horses who have been remedially shod and medicated as treatment for caudal-hoof lameness. It is not common to posts about barefoot rehabs who are brought sound by the treatment (most of them). Those horses which I know of typically return to performing at or above their pre-diagnosis level.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

I am yes. What you describe is not, in my critieria, a sound horse. I read your post as describing a horse who is sometimes pottery to an extent that it curtails what the owner can do with him. Did anyone ever try to find out how sound he may have come without his shoes?

Your description seems to me to be common to almost all the posts we get on this forum about horses who have been remedially shod and medicated as treatment for caudal-hoof lameness. It is not common to posts about barefoot rehabs who are brought sound by the treatment (most of them). Those horses which I know of typically return to performing at or above their pre-diagnosis level.

Well I beg to differ 95% of the time he is sound even done a charity ride and they check for unsoundness before you can go.

He is 30 years old he may have an "odd" day when he is pottery, not many and the instructors who rides him says he goes sound after the warm up.
Even went to the New forest last year and she did 2hr rides no problem.
The owner chooses not to canter when the ground is rock hard.
He hates jumping now due to being over jumped when he was young , thus he has gone stale. (like a few I know of)
When the ground is not hard she walks trots canters and even gallops. Whether the owner chooses to pay and find out why he has an odd day of potter-i ness is up to her since he is no longer insured. As for barefoot we are very stony here so I know she would never do that.


Like laminitis I would never (out of choice) go barefoot in the critical time either. Unless my vet or farrier told me and since things went pear shaped last time we tried, sometimes barefoot is NOT an option.

 

[muff747]

Well I beg to differ 95% of the time he is sound even done a charity ride and they check for unsoundness before you can go.

He is 30 years old he may have an "odd" day when he is pottery, not many and the instructors who rides him says he goes sound after the warm up.
Even went to the New forest last year and she did 2hr rides no problem.
The owner chooses not to canter when the ground is rock hard.
He hates jumping now due to being over jumped when he was young , thus he has gone stale. (like a few I know of)
When the ground is not hard she walks trots canters and even gallops. Whether the owner chooses to pay and find out why he has an odd day of potter-i ness is up to her since he is no longer insured. As for barefoot we are very stony here so I know she would never do that.


Like laminitis I would never (out of choice) go barefoot in the critical time either. Unless my vet or farrier told me and since things went pear shaped last time we tried, sometimes barefoot is NOT an option.

What does "gone stale" actually mean really? Does it mean the horse begins playing up or knocks the fences down or just refuses to jump anymore?
Could that be because it experiences pain and discomfort when it jumps, perhaps that's why it doesn't like jumping maybe?
As for the decision to try barefoot, many owners who have exhausted the expertise of their vets and farriers - such as myself - and end up going against their advice because they have been given no hope from them, only despair. The barefoot option offers hope of a full recovery and the results are getting more and more predictable. The success rate is now high enough to make the decision easier to take that leap of faith and it is a chance and money very well spent when they proove those vets and farriers wrong - as I did.
The best option for a navicular horse/pony is to get the shoes off as soon as possible and it has been shown time and time again that the healing and recovery begins from that point onward.
Everyone has to make their own decision as to whether to trust the opinion of the vets and farriers or to follow their own gut feelings for the sake of their horse. The growing wave of anecdotal evidence makes it harder for those non believers to ignore anymore, and there is no need to spend money gathering hard evidence, the owners are just pleased to get their horses back into work, so why should money be spent just to satisfy to the non believers? In my view it isn't necessary, I had my proof before my very eyes.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

What does "gone stale" actually mean really? Does it mean the horse begins playing up or knocks the fences down or just refuses to jump anymore?
Could that be because it experiences pain and discomfort when it jumps, perhaps that's why it doesn't like jumping maybe?

Or could it be that at 30 yrs old, the horse doesn't want to jump anymore? Am I missing something here or is Barefoot, as well as being able to heal the navicular bone and I quote;

This is not the end for your horse, mine also had changes to the navicular bone. The conventional wisdom is that these changes cannot be reversed, to which I would respond - why not? When I broke my arm, it mended, why can a navicular bone, given the right conditions, not mend?

-
-is Barefoot also the elixir of eternal youth ?

A 30 yr old shod horse still in regular work sounds pretty good.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

he is still shod all round


Going stale is the term we use from the 70's. It means the horse was over jumped when it was younger now refuses or stops runs out if you try to jump him.


We had one a Park Farm " Sprite" she was called was stale, being a gr8 jumper she was used on all jumping lessons for years , then she refused to jump . No problems with her ability just no longer showed interest.

 

[Lainey123]

There is another one which I can't find right now where the failure rate for conventional treatment of collateral ligament/ddft damage is 80%

The above was certainly correct for my boy. He was diagnosed with navicular, but then I had him MRI'd as he was getting no better with shoes and tildren, Irap you name it. Turned out no changes to the navicular bone, but he had collateral ligament damage. By this point he had been lame for 2 years and 10 months straight box rest. Option left was to send him to Rockley, 4 months later he was hunting, now 2 years on, he hunts, jumps, x-country and dressage. Best possible outcome for him, after being told that pts was the only option. All mine are barefoot now including my 21 year old Welsh cob who hunts all day. Rockley is an amazing place and so is Nic and without her my boy would have been 12 feet under 2 years ago.

 

[GemmaT]

I fought this disease for six years with my lad. He started out by going 2/10 lame on a circle and was never right after that. I tried natural balance shoes, wedge pads (gave him infected corns!!). Heartbars provdied a relief along with rebalancing his feet and he got back to hacking then he went wrong again. I tried vettec insoles and Tildren (did nothing but make him colic!!) and finally he went to Weipers for a full lameness workup. He was diagnosed with navicular changes in his n/f but none in his o/f but was lame in both. They chopped his toes back and put raised heel heartbars on him and he had a steroid into his navicular bursa and told to box rest him for 8 weeks with controlled excercise.

After 8 weeks he was no sounder and the shoes made him miserable so I took them off. I then tried a barefoot trimmer until eventually it got to a point where he was very unsound and not a happy horse. He was PTS last July aged 11, worst day of my life.

What I do know is navicular is not an exact science and not two horses will be alike. There is a lot of research into barefoot being good for navic type horses but it does involve a lot of legwork and time/money if you want to do it properly. You just have to decide what is right for your horse.

 

[Oberon]

What I do know is navicular is not an exact science and not two horses will be alike. There is a lot of research into barefoot being good for navic type horses but it does involve a lot of legwork and time/money if you want to do it properly. You just have to decide what is right for your horse.

I'm sorry for your loss.

I have to respectfully disagree that it takes legwork and money. It can be cheaper.

My friend paid £2480 on her navicular horse, (Vet fees £500, Vet hospital treatment £1500
Remedial shoeing £480) and still had a lame, unhappy horse.

Versus £544 after going BF (Hoof trimming £150, Body worker's several treatments £300, Magnesium and other vitamins and minerals every 2 months £24, saddle gullets at £25 each and had three = £75).

All rehab was done at a normal livery yard with owners who (are still) completely clueless about hooves. They just left (our excellent) trimmer in charge and did what he said.

Horse has been sound and competing ever since.

If I could have one wish, it would be for BF to be the first treatment, rather than the last. If BF didn't work, then try all the traditional stuff. There's nothing to lose that way.

 

[Waltzing Matilda]

I got an.IDx on loan with navicular. Had a neurectomy was on butt and in egg bar shoes. Typical navicular feet, one upright and boxy, tge other splat! I took him off Bute and gave him 24hr turn out and was going to give Him time to settle, then take his back shoes off. Work him gently for a few weeks and take his fronts off. However he had other ideas and pulled a back shoe off in mud, so had to take other one off mid week, wad fine do took fronts off that weekend. No transition period necessary. Hacked at weekends on road and in fields, then schooled most days through winter. Had regular trims. Having balanced feet actually showed he had a back/pelivs problem which had gone undiagnosed and caused his navicular! I had him for a year before he was rrhomed to a girl that sucessfully jumps him. He had 3 days of lameness In that yr, wen he had an abcess in a hind foot! Vet was very impressed as was convinced nerve would grow back.and hr would b crippled!

Good luck, its not a nice thing to Ho through. X