Need advice - loan gone wrong, RSPCA, welfare, kicking ones-self/legal help! long!

Hedwards

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I'll start from the very beginning (seems sensible to start there!), in June 2009 I took Connie on loan from a friend of a friend, it was a bit difficult to get sorted as the friend of a friend was occasionally difficult to get hold of (all becomes clear later), however eventually, loan contract signed, and we picked her up. Her condition wasn’t the best, but we had been told she'd basically been turned away for a few years, she wasn’t a neglect case, and was basically a happy little mare that required a bit of TLC (her feet were the worst bit about her). The owner was very pleasant, and showed us all her other ponies, some really cracking show pony types and more shetties and mini's than you could shake a stick at. We saw photos of her and Connie when she was out competing (showing), champion on many occasions I understand.

Everything was great, Connie was fab, I was happy, the owner didn’t make any contact. Last June the contract basically expired, the owner was un-contacable, no matter how hard we tried, her house was empty, but the ponies still in the fields, all looking a little less healthy, but not bad by any means. A bit more digging, and we found out Connie's owner was in trouble, an alcoholic, had been arrested for numerous alcohol related incidents etc etc.

We tried and tried to contact her, until one day, by fluke we happened to find her in her village/town (we were there for something else), anyway we had a chat, and she said she would come and see Connie two days later, we gave details, swapped numbers again and all was great - she was completely lucid and frankly looked a lot better than when we had last seen her, married to a new man who seemed ok, so we thought all was ok again.

Two days later, the owner didn’t show, we tried calling, line was dead. Again, she was AWOL - we were wrong, apparently both she and her new man are big drinkers!

This continued, until about 2 months ago, when my friend happened to bump into someone who had previously kept her ponies with Connie's owner.

Now I have to say the following is all anecdotal - second hand information, but so far has proved to be true.

The lady said that Connie's owner had moved all the ponies, to two separate yards relatively locally, the minis and Shetlands to one field at a private livery yard, and then 3 show ponies to another livery yard. However in February the RSPCA seized the ponies (I understand no care was provided at all through the terrible winter we had, one pony passed away, and I can only imagine the state of the others), the show ponies were signed over to the livery yard in lieu of payment to be sold on (cracking ponies, anyone who got them will be lucky!) - Sadly I don’t know what yard this was. The minis & shets were all taken by RSPCA and the owner banned from keeping horses (don’t know what kind of ban, i.e. life or 5 years etc) - I've tried calling this livery yard owner, however no luck so far...no voicemail mechanism on the number.


So now, I have Connie, I love her to pieces and she will stay with me to the end of her days, however I have no legal responsibility or right to her (although I believe if I took the owner to court she'd be mine due to me paying for her for over a year after the contract).

The owner is (reportedly) banned from keeping horses, and yet, she still owns Connie. I've called the RSPCA 5 times and each time a 'message' has been passed to the local inspector to call me back, but their main piece of advice is to speak to CAB - which makes no sense to me, as per the court action etc etc. which is all I think they'll tell me. Still no word from the local inspector (I’ve been calling for 1 and a half months now!)

So... what would any of you suggest. I have Connie's passports and registration forms, I have Connie, and she is now a picture of health - but she's not mine!

Photos of the girl:

Day she came home (Cant believe I didn’t see how poor she really was – could kick myself now for not doing something for the other ponies!)
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Our first ever competition, walk and trot test – we won!!
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Later on we did some fun eventing– we won!! We went on to dabble in SJ/XC and were happily competing at affiliated Novice dressage.
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Trec competition – we won!!
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Then after diagnosis of concussive lami in her offside fore (see the 1st photo!!) she was out of work for a loooong time, and I nearly had to have her pts. However we’ve battled on and she’s back in work now (steady easy stuff) and we’re both happy! Oh and maybe I should add that this horse is 20 years old!

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Most recent one of us, I love this!!
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So now, I have Connie, I love her to pieces and she will stay with me to the end of her days, however I have no legal responsibility or right to her (although I believe if I took the owner to court she'd be mine due to me paying for her for over a year after the contract).

Unfortunatly you are miss informed on the last part, you still legally have no right to ownership of the horse, you have not paid for it and do not have a reciept.

my advice would be to speak to an equine solictor, other option is to try and stumble across the owner and ask if for a nomanal amount you can purchase the horse, BUT get a reciept and make sure it says on the reciept that she is sold to you and previous owner has given up all owner ship rights.
 
Lovely pony although I'm not sure what your problem is. You have care and control of her and her papers, the owner can't have her back as she's banned from ownership, it's unlikely that she'll try and sell her and with her recent health issues she's not a wildly saleable animal.

So I'd be inclined to leave the status quo unless you are wanting rid of the pony, which it doesn't sound like.
 
JH - there's no way I'm going to try and contact the owner myself now I know all I do, who knows what I'll find - some of her arrests have been suposedly related to aggressive behaviour.

I do believe in the eyes of the law, if it went to court, no court would give her the horse back, and she would be signed over to me - purely due to her ban on owning horses - she cannot legally own this horse anymore, on top of the fact she owes me a years worth of keep + veterinary fees since the loan ended.

I'm reluctant to speak to a solicitor - thats going to cost me (a lot) - and frankly I dont want to spend my money on sorting her mess out if i can help it.
 
I can't offer any advice but I wanted to say she's a lovely girl and you clearly love her to pieces....I really hope eveyrhting works out and she beocmes legally yours ASAP :-)
 
Personally I'd carry on as usual and wait for someone to come along and claim otherwise. You've tried and tried to keep in touch with owner and no rescue centre will need to step in if she has loving guardians.

Its only an issue in my mind if you want to hand her back or sell her which you don't.
 
Lovely pony although I'm not sure what your problem is. You have care and control of her and her papers, the owner can't have her back as she's banned from ownership, it's unlikely that she'll try and sell her and with her recent health issues she's not a wildly saleable animal.

So I'd be inclined to leave the status quo unless you are wanting rid of the pony, which it doesn't sound like.


Its not all ok, the RSPCA dont want to know, and if it wasnt for me they'd have no clue about her. I'm not comfortable owning this mare without having a ligitimate ownership, it doesnt sit well with me at all, not least because if something ever happened to me and i could no longer keep her, what would i do then?? the passport isnt in my name etc. and if something happened to Connie and she was pts, her owner may have some rights (although i'm not totally sure on that) and come after me...

I cant sit back and just ignore this one, especially as law and rspca have been involved
 
very true OP people can turn very nasty if they think money is involved, but I think as far as your concerned you have done everything you can think of to try and contact the owner. But as you see in other posts how does anybody prove the horse is theirs as there is never any offical documentation so if she did come back to haunt you its up to her to prove she is the owner and I suspect that the police wont want to get involved and at the end of the day she will probably be glad to get the horse out of her life.

BTW well done she is beautiful.
 
JH - there's no way I'm going to try and contact the owner myself now I know all I do, who knows what I'll find - some of her arrests have been suposedly related to aggressive behaviour.

I do believe in the eyes of the law, if it went to court, no court would give her the horse back, and she would be signed over to me - purely due to her ban on owning horses - she cannot legally own this horse anymore, on top of the fact she owes me a years worth of keep + veterinary fees since the loan ended.

I'm reluctant to speak to a solicitor - thats going to cost me (a lot) - and frankly I dont want to spend my money on sorting her mess out if i can help it.

unfortunatly you are again wrong, and I say this with bitter experiance, my stallion is out on loan and the woman is currently trying to claim ownership, so I do know what i am talking about, the owner of your horse owes you no money just because the loan agreement ran out, in the eyes of the law they are more likely to class it as rolling.

and it is not just her mess, you have the pony so are part responible no matter how hard you may of tried.

a good solicter will not charge you for your first consultation, they will listen to the story offer a small amount of advice, and tell you what your options are.
 
I'm still not really understanding. You don't want to involve the owner because you say she's violent - but you feel she "owes" you for a year's worth of bills for the pony. You want to sort the matter out but you don't want to talk to a solicitor because it will cost you.

It smacks to me, just reading what I have written above, that actually you don't want to keep paying for the mare, you feel that you have done more than enough. So if that's the case hand her over to the RSPCA saying she has been dumped with you and you can't hand her back to her owner.

Alternatively, as someone other than me has also said, just keep quiet and keep her "to the end of her days" and if you are very worried about what happens in case of an accident to you, do as I have in my will and leave an instruction that she is destroyed with payment for related bills to come from your estate. The owner isn't going to bother you if that has happened.

Alternatively you could sub loan her to someone who has a use for her on the grounds that if the owner wants her back and is legally able to do so the loan ceases.
 
Personally, and this is personally, i don't know about the legality of it, but if I were in your situation, and had tried to contact the owner numerous times, she had been banned from keeping horses and you had all her papers and passports...personally I would try and contact the 'owner' one last time and say you are signing the passport and papers over to yourself...and then do it....that's what I would do!!
 
I don't think she looked in poor condition when you got her :confused: Her feet needed tidying but that's about all. She looks tidied up and smart in your showing photos and she looks overweight in her laminitis lying down photo. She's a pretty girl :)

Ownership is always tricky in situations like this, but generally the person loaning does not own the horse no matter what's gone on. Have you conclusive proof that the real owner has been banned from keeping animals? I must say that I wouldn't be so sure that even if you do get in touch with the RSPCA or other authorities that you would be granted ownership of this horse regardless of the owner allegedly being banned from keeping animals. The RSPCA could take ownership of the mare. Simple fact, horse does not belong to you legally. It belongs to her and if her others have been confiscated then the one you have of hers may be too.

I understand you wanting to get to the bottom of this and sorting it out once and for all however if it were me I think I'd be tempted to just let sleeping dogs lie. If she comes back in later years to try to claim the horse then deal with it then. I wouldn't be calling the RSPCA though as the outcome may not be as you desire.
 
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Personally, and this is personally, i don't know about the legality of it, but if I were in your situation, and had tried to contact the owner numerous times, she had been banned from keeping horses and you had all her papers and passports...personally I would try and contact the 'owner' one last time and say you are signing the passport and papers over to yourself...and then do it....that's what I would do!!

did you just dream that up? :) you cant sign a horse over to yourself, a passport is not proof of ownership the only thing that would prove this is a reciept from REAL owner.

please be carful what you advise as some nit brain will actully think they can do things like this, possibley causing a lot of heartache along the way.
 
I'd also let sleeping dogs lie. The pony is a veteran and of little monetary value. If the owner wanted to take her back, which she can't do, as she is banned from owning a horse, she would have to prove ownership if you disputed her claim due to abandonment.
Being an alcoholic with the social problems that often goes with it, I doubt she would pursue a claim after initial bluffing.
However, if you aggravate her or let her know how much the pony means to you, she may just see £ signs flashing and cause you unnecessary hassle.
 
Jemimima_too - your reply is I'll informed, this horse will be with me to the end of her days, god willing, I spend a fortune on remedial farriery for her every 4 weeks and she gets the best care, I will continue to do this until either Connie is no more, or I am unable to do so for whatever reason that may occur, all I am trying to do is ensure her future is 100% secure! It actually isn't my decision to pts, she is not mine! So leaving a will saying so would be unfair on my family who are all aware of the situation.

Also at no point have I said she owes me any money at all, all ice said was that if it went to court and she wanted ownership (which she isn't allowed) I would contest that with the fact I have spent many 1000's of pounds looking after her as I was unable to contact her and there was no legal contract, I wouldn't want money, I'd want Connie!!
 
Yup, I did just dream it up! But that's what i would probably do! Proof of ownership is a tricky one - I have no idea where my horse's 'receipt' is - I bought him over 10 years ago. God knows what I would do if someone decided to start claiming he was theirs. The horse I bought two years ago came with a crappy handwritten receipt, which anyone could forge. BHS gold memebership is the way forward for 'free' equine legal advice. Taking advice from a forum like this would be ridiculous.
 
on top of the fact she owes me a years worth of keep + veterinary fees since the loan ended.
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you think she owes you money, she doesnt you have the horse still a document was in place, it ended but you continue to live by and keep the horse in accordence with the agreement, therfore carrying on with a rolling agreement.

I am not having a go at you please do understand that, BUT I am trying yo make you see sence.

once again contact a solicitor ensure it is an equine based one and go from there, the 1st call will not cost you anything, so you have nothing to lose.

if you needed to spend a few hundred pounds to get a letter sent to the owner etc then it could save you a lot of heart break.

say for example.

owner has been banned from keeping/owning equines, (note the two words have 2 meenings. it could be owner is just banned from keeping not owning if that makes sence).

ist off a solicitor could find out EXACTLEY what the deal was.

you could then get a letter sent worded to the effect you understand bla bla you ensure connie has a happy life but would the owner sign her over to you.

i know the above sounds far to simple but it is one way to get the outcome you want. yes you have to spend money, but if you attempted to go to court it would cost you money

after all, woman may not be banned, and could sit they and say i love that pony so much sob, im a reformed alccie i just want the little lass back. bla bla and WHAM connie is taken from you.
 
Yup, I did just dream it up! But that's what i would probably do! Proof of ownership is a tricky one - I have no idea where my horse's 'receipt' is - I bought him over 10 years ago. God knows what I would do if someone decided to start claiming he was theirs. The horse I bought two years ago came with a crappy handwritten receipt, which anyone could forge. BHS gold memebership is the way forward for 'free' equine legal advice. Taking advice from a forum like this would be ridiculous.

^^^ PMSL can i have some of what your drinking?:) and BHS isnt free you still have to pay near 60 quid to join.
 
I think if this person actually wanted the horse back she would have turned up for the meeting. Seems to me that she doesn't care as they have all been taken off her hands. And if she's drunk all the time I doubt she'll even remember she owns the horse. Maybe that's why she didn't meet up with you, she might of thought you wanted to give her back. And to save her the embarrassment of giving you the details of her ban etc she has walked away.
 
Yes - hence the 'free' was in '' :) i'm severely bored - last hour at work, I think i'm losing my mind....anyway, OP, I really hope you get this sorted as it must weigh on your mind night and day xx
 
Op I'm a lawyer, I can't advise you as I have not seen the papers but I can say with certainty that the only bot of advice worth listening to on this thread is to get proper legal advice. You can do this via the bhs for less than sixty quid, I call that cheap for the peace of mind.
 
Yes - hence the 'free' was in '' :) i'm severely bored - last hour at work, I think i'm losing my mind....anyway, OP, I really hope you get this sorted as it must weigh on your mind night and day xx

im about to head to horses then pub in the sun does that help you with your last hour.. nommmmmmmm cold pint of ciderrrrrrrrrrr :p:D
 
I can totally see where you are coming from OP and I'd have the same worries as you. Not knowing where I stand is something that makes me very edgy! You obviously care about the horse a lot and have worked hard to make her what she is. I think getting legal advice from the BHS is probably the way to go. Don't contact anyone else meantime until you have someone with legal expertise on your side. Good luck. I hope it all works out. xx
 
I think I'll speak to insurers first and foremost to see if they have legal advice, contemplating bhs, but that'll mean paying again for insurance she already has... My problem is I have no proof on the seized ponies, the RSPCA haven't been in contact to confirm if this is the case, I could get a solicitor to write a letter, but where would they send it, we know her old house is occupied by someone else as she left that and it was only rented in the first place, the contract address doesn't actually exist any more! I don't want a penny of money, I couldn't care less how much I need to spend on Connie, my point about costs would purely be the legal argument I would take if it went to court.

My issue is that I just don't know who or where else I can go... Will update once I have legal advice.
 
When I needed advice about my pony I have on loan,CAB sent me to a solicitor for free. I dont hear from my pony's so called owner (complicated). I just go with the flow and keep quiet. Havent heard from her in just over 5 1/2 years.
Hope all works out for you.
 
OP, check your house insurance, whether that includes legal cover that would cover this.

I'm afraid legal advice is the only option for you. All most can do on here is give you their experience which will differ from the situation you are in.
 
It smacks to me, just reading what I have written above, that actually you don't want to keep paying for the mare, you feel that you have done more than enough. So if that's the case hand her over to the RSPCA saying she has been dumped with you and you can't hand her back to her owner.
Honestly? Is that truthfully how the post appears to you?!

OP I know that you will probably never hear anything, but I also understand that if it were me I would need to know she's legally mine. Why are you reluctant to talk to CAB? BHS insurance sounds a great idea xx
 
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