Need advice - loan gone wrong, RSPCA, welfare, kicking ones-self/legal help! long!

Have just spoken to the Petplan legal line, he's asked to see a copy of the loan agreement, but said I'll probably have to go to court to get settled...
 
Why not ask MHOL on this board? because they DO know what the legal position is! That way you will at least get legal clarity on where you stand. I would side with you in trying to sort this because it is always hanging over your head and the owner could either pop up out of the blue or sell the horse to someone else if they can't keep her themselves. If they hypothetically sold connie to a family member for a £1, then you would have no rights over her.

I doubt you would have much recourse with the claiming of a years worth of costs though.
 
Luci07 said:
Why not ask MHOL on this board? because they DO know what the legal position is! That way you will at least get legal clarity on where you stand. I would side with you in trying to sort this because it is always hanging over your head and the owner could either pop up out of the blue or sell the horse to someone else if they can't keep her themselves. If they hypothetically sold connie to a family member for a £1, then you would have no rights over her.

I doubt you would have much recourse with the claiming of a years worth of costs though.
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Be aware that the owner could sell the pony behind your back,(happened to someone I know)
the owner told the lad he could keep the horse on loan indeffinatly,suddenly a box turned up and they took the horse.Unfortunalty it does happen.
Talk to CAB and fax a copy of ther loan agreement to the insurance company.
 
To be honest I'm not overly worried about the owner selling the horse or claiming her, I doubt she even remembers she owns her, but I just want the security to know she never can, I wouldn't think she has her copy of the contract still, so she wouldn't know where the horse is stabled... I dunno, just wish I could click my fingers and make it all go away!
 
i dont post very often on here now because of threads going the way this one does.
Nice lady posts some pictures of nice horse (loved the last one i bet im not the only jealous fatty) and asks for advice.
Just to compound her feelings and make her feel worse nasty person says nasty things. pretty normal round here i think.
this is just how it looks to a casual viewer.
 
if it was me i would just carry on as normal hard i know but it has already been said she is not easily saleable and the owner cant have her so i wouldnt worry as if the owner drinks that much hopefully she wont remember :)
 
Luckoldme - thanks for your post, I haven't taken anything personally and there has been some good advice too. I'm just surprised by how many have said do nothing! Hopefully get sorted soon! Ps I love that photo too!
 
To be honest most people may have chosen not to comment as they only have one side of a story.

It's good that you have sought legal advice. I agree with whoever said that if she is banned it may be down to wording i.e. looking after/owning. Regardless of which, she is the current owner and it worries me that people could suggest moving the mare/changing owners details on passport as my boy is about to go on loan.
 
Google her name and her court case will probably come up so you know what the ban was. Then you can go to CAB and find out what your legal position is.

Meantime, if she has been banned from keeping horses then she has no legal right to this one as it would have been taken in lieu of debt or by the RSPCA.

I would think that any court would have the horse signed over to you under the circumstances because she would have been asked about ALL the horses she owned and obviously never mentioned this one.
 
To be perfectly honest... I would collect together all the important paperwork (loan agreement etc), put it in a safe place... then ignore the issue.

By the looks of it, she has no interest in getting Connie back. After two+ years I think if she wanted the money, she'd have sold her already. If you keep poking and prodding at her for legal ownership, you will enflame the situation.

In short, the owner made you Connie's legal guardian. This gives you the right to decide life or death decisions (I find it odd that you wouldn't have Connie PTS because you're not the owner... what would you do if Connie had colic tonight? Keep phoning the dead phoneline of a woman who really doesn't give a toss to get permission? Or put her out of her misery...). It gives you the right to decide what is best for Connie.

If that means keeping quiet about her real ownership for the rest of her life, then so be it.

P.S. - it's easy enough to get a passport with your name on it...
 
Foxhunter, unfortunately the owner has married in the past two years (something else found out from the lady who gave us the other info) so when googling her name I'm getting nothing, and there doesn't seem to be any marriage announcements anywhere either. Serenity there would be no issue pts if it was the only option, however I have previously been in a situation where my old mare was pts as I decided it was best for her, I'd find this very difficult in the current situation and would make a sad time even more stressful, I don't want to just ignore this and keep my fingers crossed everything is always ok, I'm someone that always errs on the side of caution I'm afraid. Especially with something as precious as Connie!
 
i'd just let things go, if she turns up wanting the horse then contact the rspca and tell them that she is breaking the conditions of the court (horse ownership). if they are gonna dish out such a sentence then they should follow it all up and either return the horse to you or take it into their care, at least she doesn't have the mare.
 
Thanks everyone, like I've said I'm not going to ignore this and hope it goes away. Fingers crossed the legal line from Petplan can help!
 
This is another sad tale that underlines the need for proper, written loan agreements that detail exactly what should happen when things go wrong.

Hedward, does your loan agreement have any clauses that would be applicable to the owner being impossible to contact? In hospital or dead?

Your loan agreement is the place to start in all of this. Short of the real owner coming forward and claiming Connie you have more rights to her than anyone else PROVIDING the court did not hand over ALL other horses to the RSPCA.

It could be that the RSPCA are not responding because someone in their office is thinking "Please go away and shut up or we will have to come over and seize this animal" (Unlikely, but possible).

Note that the Animal Welfare Act demands that anyone in possession of an animal that is the subject of such an order is required to hand it over. Do not do so unless you are given a written copy of the court order AND the order specifies who has the right to enforce it, and that person is present. At that stage you will need urgent specialist legal advice.

If Connie's owner has been banned under the Animal Welfare Act 2006 then she cannot own, keep, or be responsible for those types of animals she was banned from. She cannot sell Connie whilst banned. She cannot give instructions as to how Connie is kept. She cannot turn up and take Connie until the ban is over.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/45/section/34

34 Disqualification
This section has no associated Explanatory Notes

(1)If a person is convicted of an offence to which this section applies, the court by or before which he is convicted may, instead of or in addition to dealing with him in any other way, make an order disqualifying him under any one or more of subsections (2) to (4) for such period as it thinks fit.

(2)Disqualification under this subsection disqualifies a person—

(a)from owning animals,

(b)from keeping animals,

(c)from participating in the keeping of animals, and

(d)from being party to an arrangement under which he is entitled to control or influence the way in which animals are kept.


Bottom line is this, Hedward, You can keep on digging and risk stirring up a hornets nest or you can carry on as before and hope that you have not already put something in motion that will result in Connie being taken into 'care' and maybe fostered out to someone else.

Whatever you decide to do, keep all of your receipts, details of your attempts to contact the owner, phone bills if you have them to prove when and how often you called.

Like others here, I can't stress strongly enough the need for specialist legal advice. In writing. There are far too many variables of fuzzy detail involved. However, old legal saying - possession is nine tenths of the law. Owner needs to take court action to dislodge an animal involved in a civil dispute. Not criminal because you have no intention of permanently depriving the owner of her horse if she pays what is owed and is in a position to legally take care and possession of Connie (ie is not banned).

Please everyone reading this. If you have a loan agreement that does not cover all eventualities or is not in writing then go out and renegotiate and get one. Nothing is foolproof, but far too many problems arise out of badly worded or verbal agreements.
 
We used the bhs standard agreement, it didn't cross my mind to put something in along the lines of 'if owner dissappears' or 'if RSPCA take all her other horses' etc etc, obviously there is a clause about pts if advised by a vet etc. I have beenopen and honest with the RSPCA, if they feel the need to seize her, then there isn't a lot I can do about it, however, I doubt very much they would want to do that considering the extra costs involved in keeping the mare sound, all of which I'm doing.

Like I've said, I'm not going to sweep this under the carpet, I will do everything in my power for Connie and ensure the rest of her life is a happy one, however long or short that may be.
 
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