Need loaning advice!

[Ellietotz]

What is the benefit of a permanent loan? If the owner isn't going to do anything with the horse or ask for it back, why not sell it? Just trying to decide if it's worth it or not and what the benefits are other than not having to pay to actually buy one.
For example, if there is a horse that no one rides anyway and I could ride it whenever and the option to loan it permanently comes up, is it worth doing that? As then I would have no risks of someone deciding to ride it in the future if that happened and it would be mine (but not mine)? Help! Would it be better to loan it and have all expenses or carry on just riding it and not actually be mine and anyone can ride it?

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

Ummm........ sorry OP but you've lost me....... tried to keep up with you but your second paragraph has just totally confused me!

Hope someone else can decipher.

Sorry!

 

[FestiveFuzz]

I'm confused OP, I thought you already owned your horse?

In an attempt to answer what I think your question is. The benefits of permanent loan is to give the owner peace of mind that the horse is well cared for whilst also given them the final say on their welfare. It is often a good compromise for horses who may no longer be able to do the job they were first bought for but that could still be of use to someone.

For example, my baby mare was bought as a high level dressage prospect, but unfortunately due to injury there's a good chance she'll never make the level I bought her for. That said, she'll most likely be fine for hacking and low level stuff. I would never sell her as I want to have full control of her future but at the same time there may come a time when I won't have the time to run two horses at which point I will look for someone who will be content with what my girl can offer.

As for which is best for you, it really depends on your personal circumstances. Do you have the time and funds to keep the horse as if it were your own? Do you mind others riding it or are you happy with the current arrangement? Only you can decide what is best for you.

 

[JulesRules]

So you are riding a horse that belongs to someone else, but is only ridden by you. They have offered you the option of a full loan and you want to weigh up the pros and cons?

Are you paying anything to ride it? If on full loan you would most likely be responsible for cost of keeping it.

Benefit of a full loan is that you can effectively have control as if it were yours.

Some people prefer to loan rather than sell so that they can ensure the pony remains in a good home and take it back if there were to be any.issues.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

So you've found a random horse that the owner doesn't mind you riding? Now you've decided that you don't want anyone else to ride it? Have you been offered it on loan? Or are you thinking of asking? If the owner has kept it this long as a pet they may not want to give up full control of it. There is no such thing as a permanent loan as the owner can take the horse back whenever they please.

 

[Ellietotz]

So you've found a random horse that the owner doesn't mind you riding? Now you've decided that you don't want anyone else to ride it? Have you been offered it on loan? Or are you thinking of asking? If the owner has kept it this long as a pet they may not want to give up full control of it. There is no such thing as a permanent loan as the owner can take the horse back whenever they please.

There is a horse I can ride when I want and have been offered to have it on full loan at the same home. No one rides it anyway but loaning it would make me officially the only person. Plus there would also be a signed contract to declare that the owner cannot take it back or cancel the loan, only if I decide I want to stop. I don't know what to do. Is it worth it? The other horse isn't my own horse, I basically can do whatever I want and when, treat him like my own and not pay but have to share him with the owners of course. This opportunity means I can have something that I can call my own, or can't I? Plus I can have both the horses I love in the same place. Basically, is it worth paying for the expenses of having a horse on the pure basis that I'll be the only person, can take it if I move and can call it my own?

 

[Ellietotz]

So you are riding a horse that belongs to someone else, but is only ridden by you. They have offered you the option of a full loan and you want to weigh up the pros and cons?

Are you paying anything to ride it? If on full loan you would most likely be responsible for cost of keeping it.

Benefit of a full loan is that you can effectively have control as if it were yours.

Some people prefer to loan rather than sell so that they can ensure the pony remains in a good home and take it back if there were to be any.issues.

Yes, that's right. Don't pay anything right now to ride it but run the risk of the owner wanting to do something else with it although chances are unlikely. If loaned, I would be responsible for the costs and control what happens. What do you think?

 

[wills_91]

OP there is no loan contract that would state you had the horse on loan and that the owner couldn't take it back... that's contradicting.

 

[Ellietotz]

I'm confused OP, I thought you already owned your horse?

In an attempt to answer what I think your question is. The benefits of permanent loan is to give the owner peace of mind that the horse is well cared for whilst also given them the final say on their welfare. It is often a good compromise for horses who may no longer be able to do the job they were first bought for but that could still be of use to someone.

For example, my baby mare was bought as a high level dressage prospect, but unfortunately due to injury there's a good chance she'll never make the level I bought her for. That said, she'll most likely be fine for hacking and low level stuff. I would never sell her as I want to have full control of her future but at the same time there may come a time when I won't have the time to run two horses at which point I will look for someone who will be content with what my girl can offer.

As for which is best for you, it really depends on your personal circumstances. Do you have the time and funds to keep the horse as if it were your own? Do you mind others riding it or are you happy with the current arrangement? Only you can decide what is best for you.

Sorry, my mind is a bit fuzzy from it all so I'm not making sense. My current boy, I love him to bits but it does bother me when others ride him but I cannot change that plus I have a lucky deal of not paying for him and riding him when I want. I would love to call him my own but that won't happen and this other pony will be at the same place with the same owners so I could do both but have the other officially on loan with the expenses of owning. But trying to weigh up if it's worth it since the offered horse doesn't get ridden anyway so I would be the only one but I would like to call it my own by loaning! I could have no costs and ride a horse that I have no control over or have those expenses and loan it?

 

[FestiveFuzz]

Plus there would also be a signed contract to declare that the owner cannot take it back or cancel the loan, only if I decide I want to stop

I would be surprised if an owner was willing to agree to such terms and I very much doubt legally it would stand up if the owner wanted to take the horse back. A permanent loan is only as permanent as the owner wants it to be.

 

[Ellietotz]

OP there is no loan contract that would state you had the horse on loan and that the owner couldn't take it back... that's contradicting.

That's what the owner had written in to it... I don't get it either. It's just for peace of mind that it doesn't get sold on.

 

[Ellietotz]

I would be surprised if an owner was willing to agree to such terms and I very much doubt legally it would stand up if the owner wanted to take the horse back. A permanent loan is only as permanent as the owner wants it to be.

That's what the owner has written into the contract. But then how can a piece of paper stand between the two? Ergh, I don't know!

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Give the owner a pound for the horse and make sure you get a receipt. That way you have paid for the animal and they can't take it back.

There is no such thing as a permanent loan.

 

[Ellietotz]

Give the owner a pound for the horse and make sure you get a receipt. That way you have paid for the animal and they can't take it back.

There is no such thing as a permanent loan.

They don't want to officially sign it over for the risk that I may want to sell it in the future. In which case, they would want it back.

 

[HaffiesRock]

Do you know what the cost would be to full loan the horse? You realise that all of the horses care would be your sole responsibility, which is a big thing in winter. Is that cost and time worth being the only one to ride the horse?

 

[Ellietotz]

Do you know what the cost would be to full loan the horse? You realise that all of the horses care would be your sole responsibility, which is a big thing in winter. Is that cost and time worth being the only one to ride the horse?

This is what I'm debating...

 

[zaminda]

Personally I would stay as is. Work out how much a horse would cost you to keep, and put the money in a separate account. Keep that for if things change. Horses get older, and you could discover by the time things change, your riding goals have too, but you will have some cash to buy what you want.

 

[HaffiesRock]

This is what I'm debating...

I would speak to the owner and find out what the costs would be. My pony is on assisted DIY at a nice yard and all in for the year with the cost spread monthly, I pay about £350 a month. I probably then pay another £50 a month on fuel. This doesn't include anything more than the basics and doesn't include lessons, replacing equipment, emergency vet bills etc.

Also bear in mid (depending on your circumstances and the yard you are on/weather) you may not get to ride an awful lot come winter. You mention you have another horse there too?

My gut feeling from your post would be to stick with the arrangement that you have for now and do some serious research into the cost.

 

[Ellietotz]

I would speak to the owner and find out what the costs would be. My pony is on assisted DIY at a nice yard and all in for the year with the cost spread monthly, I pay about £350 a month. I probably then pay another £50 a month on fuel. This doesn't include anything more than the basics and doesn't include lessons, replacing equipment, emergency vet bills etc.

Also bear in mid (depending on your circumstances and the yard you are on/weather) you may not get to ride an awful lot come winter. You mention you have another horse there too?

My gut feeling from your post would be to stick with the arrangement that you have for now and do some serious research into the cost.

As it's the owners land, I would just be chipping in hay costs, farrier (not shod anyway), vet, worming as and when. Haven't discussed emergency vet bills yet, need to see what the terms are and currently discussing.

 

[honetpot]

As long as you are the owner, no matter how long its out on loan you have control over that horse. As I have loaned out a few most people only want them for a couple of years, they want to compete at a higher level, they just want a change, or their circumstances change its a lot easier than buying, its a bit like house rental its easier to swop.
I was a loaner of horse that had loss of use, it couldn't compete BS and they just wanted a hacking home, I had him for ten years and I never saw the owner after the first couple of months.
I would never give one away, I know someone who gave a pony away to along term home and three weeks later it was FB for sale. When you ride someone elses horse and there no bills everything seems rosy, I would write down a years costs and see if you still want one on full loan.

 

[Ellietotz]

As long as you are the owner, no matter how long its out on loan you have control over that horse. As I have loaned out a few most people only want them for a couple of years, they want to compete at a higher level, they just want a change, or their circumstances change its a lot easier than buying, its a bit like house rental its easier to swop.
I was a loaner of horse that had loss of use, it couldn't compete BS and they just wanted a hacking home, I had him for ten years and I never saw the owner after the first couple of months.
I would never give one away, I know someone who gave a pony away to along term home and three weeks later it was FB for sale. When you ride someone elses horse and there no bills everything seems rosy, I would write down a years costs and see if you still want one on full loan.

I don't know of the costs yet as the way we have planned it is to possibly contribute a monthly cost for the hay etc as we all share that. Livery isn't exactly a cost as it's on the owners land and if I loaned it or not, it would be there anyway. In terms of farrier and vaccs, I would transfer my costs to the owner as they will arrange it anyway because all the horses will be done at the same time. So I'm not sure yet if I will be paying as and when these things happen or if it'll just be monthly. I don't think it would make as much sense to be monthly as if there isn't cost of livery to pay, it'll just be paying towards the hay when we get it plus I grab a bag of feed when we are running low anyway. The only thing I am yet to find out is the costs of emergency vet bills in which case, I will insure it. Although, not sure how that'll all work if the horse stays in the owners name with the vet.... still got lots to find out regardless. Obviously, if I ever decided to move and the pony came to a different yard, money circumstances will change and I would be responsible for arranging everything myself. Affordability isn't an issue but it's just weighing up if it is worth it.

What I'm still debating is if I carry on as I am, ride my current boy and the other pony when I want without costs or take the opportunity to have my own pony, as it were, that I can spoil, take with me if I move and just be mine.

I'd like to add as well that this was the pony I wrote about on my 'heartbroken rant' post when I lost her to another home. She is coming back as she is not suitable for what they wanted to do with her.

 

[crabbymare]

although she is at their farm there is most likely going to be a cost for keeping her. you need to factor in something to pay them for grass keep and then the other costs of farrier teeth innoculations etc and think of it as if she was not their horse and you were loaning from someone else and keeping that horse with them. she is eating grass that the could if they wanted to have another paying horse eating if she was not there so if it was me you would need to pay keep for her

 

[abbijay]

Are you sure they are offering you a true full loan and not just an exclusive part loan deal?
If you're not paying a livery cost, possibly not responsible for insurance, farriery being organised by the owner it doesn't sound like most full loans. Does the contract stipulate that you can move the horse? Even if you don't want to do this now if you change your mind you might be sorely disappointed when they reject it.
Also, what is the arrangement for when you can't get up? If you go on holiday would the owner look after the horse (with or without payment) or would you be allowed to arrange for a groom to come to their land to do chores on your behalf?

 

[Ellietotz]

although she is at their farm there is most likely going to be a cost for keeping her. you need to factor in something to pay them for grass keep and then the other costs of farrier teeth innoculations etc and think of it as if she was not their horse and you were loaning from someone else and keeping that horse with them. she is eating grass that the could if they wanted to have another paying horse eating if she was not there so if it was me you would need to pay keep for her

The owner has already said that there is no cost for keeping her there because she would be staying there anyway if I didn't loan her

 

[Ellietotz]

Are you sure they are offering you a true full loan and not just an exclusive part loan deal?
If you're not paying a livery cost, possibly not responsible for insurance, farriery being organised by the owner it doesn't sound like most full loans. Does the contract stipulate that you can move the horse? Even if you don't want to do this now if you change your mind you might be sorely disappointed when they reject it.
Also, what is the arrangement for when you can't get up? If you go on holiday would the owner look after the horse (with or without payment) or would you be allowed to arrange for a groom to come to their land to do chores on your behalf?

This is what I'm confused about too. Yes, it's been agreed that I can move the horse if I wanted to. The owner goes there everyday for the other horses anyway, as they all live together, only chore is poo picking as they live out 24/7.

 

[HaffiesRock]

It sounds over complicated to me. If I were you I would stick with free riding!

 

[pixie27]

I might be going against the grain here... But if you know:

a. EXACTLY what the costs are and if you can definitely afford them (including saving a bit each month for any vet bills, new tack/rugs etc.)
b. Who is responsible for what (e.g. insurance, vet bills, vaccs, daily care if you can't make it up etc.)
c. What you can/can't do, e.g. move the horse if you move/find somewhere better

Then maybe go for it. I read your other post about this mare and it sounds like she's pretty important to you. If this would secure her staying with you, then maybe it's a good idea. Can you do a trial - say, have her on full loan/exclusive part loan for a month, then see if it works or not?

But don't just do it for the sake of being able to call it 'your own'. I've been (and currently am) horseless and know how hard it is, but it's a big commitment to sign up to if you're just doing it for the 'idea' of owning a horse. (if that makes sense!)

Either way, it sounds like a very good set up you've got there

 

[Ellietotz]

I might be going against the grain here... But if you know:

a. EXACTLY what the costs are and if you can definitely afford them (including saving a bit each month for any vet bills, new tack/rugs etc.)
b. Who is responsible for what (e.g. insurance, vet bills, vaccs, daily care if you can't make it up etc.)
c. What you can/can't do, e.g. move the horse if you move/find somewhere better

Then maybe go for it. I read your other post about this mare and it sounds like she's pretty important to you. If this would secure her staying with you, then maybe it's a good idea. Can you do a trial - say, have her on full loan/exclusive part loan for a month, then see if it works or not?

But don't just do it for the sake of being able to call it 'your own'. I've been (and currently am) horseless and know how hard it is, but it's a big commitment to sign up to if you're just doing it for the 'idea' of owning a horse. (if that makes sense!)

Either way, it sounds like a very good set up you've got there

Thank you. I definitely want to and waiting to negotiate responsibilities/costs etc. I'm just anxious about losing her as in, the owner taking her back. A lot of people full loan, is that the risk everyone takes? It just concerns me and I guess if there is no way around that, you just have to hope that it doesn't happen. There will be a contract written up, but surely that only stands if you are willing to pay court fees if anything happened?
I think I can decide better when I have everything in writing.

 

[pixie27]

I think that's just the risk you have to take with full loaning. Unless you were to buy her, big decisions will ultimately come down to the owners.

However, if you're a good loaner, treat the horse well, pay on time etc., there's no reason why the owner would take her away.

Could you ask for a clause to be put into the contract, along the lines of you getting first refusal if the owners did ever decide to sell?

100% get everything written down, and read it carefully (and get a few other knowledgeable people to read it too) before you sign anything.

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

There is a horse I can ride when I want and have been offered to have it on full loan at the same home. No one rides it anyway but loaning it would make me officially the only person. Plus there would also be a signed contract to declare that the owner cannot take it back or cancel the loan, only if I decide I want to stop. I don't know what to do. Is it worth it? The other horse isn't my own horse, I basically can do whatever I want and when, treat him like my own and not pay but have to share him with the owners of course. This opportunity means I can have something that I can call my own, or can't I? Plus I can have both the horses I love in the same place. Basically, is it worth paying for the expenses of having a horse on the pure basis that I'll be the only person, can take it if I move and can call it my own?

Ummm, I've both loaned and loaned out a horse in the past, and the owner is the owner, is the owner, and can take back the horse WHENEVER they please. In fact, in the contract that I used for my boy when I loaned him out, there was a contract in the loan agreement expressly stating that if there were any concerns about the welfare of the horse then he could be taken back by the owner WITH IMMEDIATE EFFECT.

I think OP you need to realise that loaning is loaning - and buying is buying. No you can't ever call a horse you loan as "your own". If you want to be able to say that about the horse that is in your care, then you need to buy it!! For pity's sake....

You talk about a signed contract to "declare that the owner cannot take it back or cancel the loan, only if I decide I want to stop". The owner CAN take the horse back if it belongs to them!! You are living in cloud cuckoo land if you think anything other than this! I cannot believe anyone could take a horse on loan and ask for a loan agreement that says the owner couldn't ever take the horse back, only if the loaner decides they want to give it up! Owner might as well sell it in that case! If I as an owner was asked to sign any loan agreement with this in it, I'd tell the potential loaner where to go, because that would ring all the wrong warning bells to me, that if I ever wanted the horse back then I'd have one helluva job getting the loaner to give it back when asked.

Think OP you need to go figure the difference between "loaning", and "buying" TBH......... words fail me they really do.