Need to get a very strong hunter listening.

[Hoof_Prints]

I am running out of options as my horse has just gotten far too strong this season and I don't want to cause a danger to ourselves or anyone else around us.

He has hunted fine in a rubber straight bar Pelham with padding and a flash for 3 seasons previously, he has always been very strong but controllable and I could keep a good pace in the field and stop if need be. At some points I had to spin him out and regain control but nothing major that I felt concerned about. I took him out in his team chasing / xc bit (Waterford dutch gag) at the start for some short meets, and he was extremely strong, really taking all my strength to hold him but he listened at least. At the second last meet he was really pulling in open fields, he overtook when we were cantering and I had to turn him away from the field so they could overtake and then catch up to apologize ! Turning away is not ideal for calming him down, but he will take the bit and just accelerate and then I worry he will run blindly as he gets stronger.

At our last meet this weekend I put him in his usual hunting bit and bridle, the Pelham, as I felt it would keep him more comfortable and compliant. He started off strong but ok, had to haul him to slow down but he was jumping and remaining controllable .. just. As we carried on he started getting ridiculous and I had to spin him out several times, unfortunately I could not retire at his point as I needed to wait to get off the estate and back to the roads. I took him back with the calmer riders to settle him but when they started trotting he cantered and took the bit again, he jumped over the hedge where the rest of the field were and just went for it. No amount of pulling was going to slow him down and my arms and hands actually went to jelly (which is absolutely terrifying, I keep having flashbacks!) so I had no choice but to let him go near the others where I just managed to turn him to a clear space. There were cars and wire around and it was horrific!

I am a sympathetic rider and always ride as light as possible, I never use a whip, shout or scare my horses, I always remain calm. I am very used to riding green or difficult horses so know most tricks to avoid a dangerous situation, but in a battle of strength I am not going to win unfortunately. What would you suggest? I have him well schooled at home and the only major change is that his best friend , who he adores, has retired so he is going out without her. He has been to competitions and team chased without her fine, but maybe it is different out hunting. He was a real state and I jumped off as soon as he stopped to calm him, then hacked him back to the lorry park as soon as I felt he was mentally ready.

At this point I am not going to risk taking him out without more control as it is just dangerous and not enjoyable, but I know he has been a lovely hunter before, others who know me were surprised at his behaviour recently as he has been so good previously. The problem is that he will get faster, I half halt and try to lighten him, but any give in the rein and he charges, then runs like an idiot and ignores the bit which is obviously a huge issue. I am just a bit lost with what to do, he could go on fast paced hunts for hours and be fine, I have never had to retire him early.

Any advice or suggestions welcome! I just need to stop the accelerating and charging as it is simply dangerous. If it can't be stopped then he will have to retire from it .

Thanks for reading

 

[AdorableAlice]

Assuming all is well in his mouth, perhaps a complete change of bridle is needed.

I had success with a strong pulling horse wearing an american gag with a back strap and a kineton.

 

[paddi22]

rode a friends massive hunter who was a dangerous pig and the only thing that got him listening was a peewee bit

 

[Hoof_Prints]

Yes forgot to add he had a vet check 3 days before this meet, all fine. I think I need something to stop him getting to that point of no return. He is fine until the switch flicks. Thanks for the reply

 

[ycbm]

I had a real 'man's horse' and a puller as my last hunter. I could only hold him in a Liverpool cherry roller or a mikmar. Hope that helps.

 

[AdorableAlice]

Mine did dressage and hacked in a nathe straight bar snaffle. Out with hounds he had a screw loose ! I broke my ankle on him when he jumped so high over a ditch he shot me up in the air but my foot stayed in the iron and my ankle snapped on the way down. The hospital staff could not get it that I had not fallen off.

 

[Hoof_Prints]

That sounds horrific AA ! Hope it was not too bad a break, I can't even imagine that happening and then having to deal with a horse charging off after. I broke both of my wrists last year and smashed my left foot in a fall so I don't have the best strength for holding a strong horse anyway haha. I have had a tiny 7 year old girl canter my boy up the bridle path in a snaffle before, and he will do a dressage test nicely too. It is the open fields that sends him mental, and if he sees jumps he just can't contain himself. He has been getting stronger recently, and I think now on his 4th season he is winding himself up and we create a vicous cycle of faster, stronger, panic, faster, stronger, panic...

 

[Hoof_Prints]

I will look up those bits, thank you . Anything is worth a try at this point! I have tried a Cheltenham gag with ropes too, but that was about as good as a snaffle.

 

[Artax]

Not hunting but I was riding out on a sponsored ride... someone cried out to me (I was in a pelham) to lift my arms straight up so the bit was right on the corners of the mouth, quite hard. No poll. The head was high but he couldn't go forward or take the bit. He really stopped.

Sorry you might have already done this one but I also had tried one rein stop, gag bits, standing etc but i used this since on horses and it's a pretty sweet one

 

[Equi]

Not hunting but I was riding out on a sponsored ride... someone cried out to me (I was in a pelham) to lift my arms straight up so the bit was right on the corners of the mouth, quite hard. No poll. The head was high but he couldn't go forward or take the bit. He really stopped.

Sorry you might have already done this one but I also had tried one rein stop, gag bits, standing etc but i used this since on horses and it's a pretty sweet one

The only issue i see with this is it might cause a horse not used to it to rear in a very dramatic manner.

 

[AdorableAlice]

I know this is not a funny subject, but I have to tell you this.

Many years ago I had a 16h Welsh Cob, mad as a box of frogs and exceptionally strong though his neck. I broke him and he was a lovely kind horse who stayed with me from 6 months to 29 years of age and he bounced through life with a huge smile on his face.

Hunting blew his brains and I was never truly in control. A day with the C&WW saw us cantering down hill on a track through a sprout field. Alongside a friend I told her 'I can't hold him' as the pace got quicker. She told me to give and take. 'You are having a laugh, if I give he will be gone'. I knew there was a pond at the bottom of the track and the track swung sharp right.

He failed to make the turn, taking out a line of sprouts as he tried to stop himself going in the pond. Soggy bottoms all round and my friend still tells the story all these years later. It certainly was the funniest moment out hunting I can remember. I never found a bit that suited him, his build made it so easy for him to set against me. Gags just curled him up. A double was the best as I could use the bits as needed.

 

[ycbm]

Love your hunting stories AA. I was hunting with a guy who broke his pelvis without falling off. Dismounting was - difficult !

A friend broke his ankle on a hedge without falling off, but doing it over a ditch is going some.

I'm still waiting for someone to come on, like they did when a thread like this ran a few years back, and tell us all that all we need to do is school our horses properly at home

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

Agree with forgetting the pelham, I was thinking an old fashioned twisted snaffle; grackle type of arrangement, but there are other options, I would try the cherry roller, but am not 100% sure it would work with him.
My advice is to learn to use your weight efficiently, as we do in racing, with shorter leathers you can use your whole weight by leaning back.
But there is more than one way to skin this cat, and I would be bridging my reins, tight on the base of his neck, so effectively using his own pulling power on his mouth.
You have to train him for this, with a lead horse [or two of them in relay], fast cantering up a long hill.
If you can't manage him, the master might take him from now through to Boxing Day.

 

[PorkChop]

Its really not funny when they take hold and go, and bloomin dangerous, so feel for you.

Can you replicate his behaviour at home?

I think its a matter of borrowing as many different bits and nosebands from friends. How does he evade? By leaning? Crossing his jaw?

The bits I have found to work for horses I have had are a Tom Thumb with curb strap. Myler combination bit. A grackle or elasticated grackle.

Have you tried a gag with a different mouthpiece?

I have seen people out hunting with very strong horses using a Liverpool Driving Bit.

Hope you find a solution and have a great season

 

[Michen]

Following this with interest. I am trying a Liverpool driving but for mine when he goes hunting for the first time this season. He's in a snaffle for everything else!

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

Following this with interest. I am trying a Liverpool driving but for mine when he goes hunting for the first time this season. He's in a snaffle for everything else!

I think the training for a newby horse is important, make sure he will follow verbal orders, and most particularly that he will pull up when you relax contact. Make sure he is not fresh when you arrive and keep him on hi fibre type food. Keep your hands on his withers, and scratch him if he starts thinking [watch the ears], or walk round in nice circles with a light contact.

 

[paddi22]

I'm still waiting for someone to come on, like they did when a thread like this ran a few years back, and tell us all that all we need to do is school our horses properly at home

Ha, i was the same. I remember getting getting into a debate with someone who was advising xc riders to school there horses properly dn they should be able tot take them bitless around a course. I was saying this would be lethal on a strong horse and did they do it themselves. Instead they posted a video of a donkey of a quiet horse popping a few tiny jumps and used it as proof it was possible. I'm all for schooling horses but there's times when someone mentions 'schooling' that you'd love to pay them to come and show you how their magical schooling would work!

 

[AdorableAlice]

I think the training for a newby horse is important, make sure he will follow verbal orders, and most particularly that he will pull up when you relax contact. Make sure he is not fresh when you arrive and keep him on hi fibre type food. Keep your hands on his withers, and scratch him if he starts thinking [watch the ears], or walk round in nice circles with a light contact.

This is of course total sense but hunting is just so exciting to some that all the schooling and respect goes straight out of the window when they hear the huntsman blow gone away.

The horse I broke my ankle on was 18h of heavyweight ID show hunter with manners to burn in the ring and competing at elementary. I could go canter to walk by merely tightening my tummy muscles - (those were the days when my tummy had muscles !) In some ways this horse could have been classed as mannerly in the hunting field, he would not dream of bucking or fidgeting for instance, but once on the move he was 18h of pure power, yes he had his bum underneath him, yes he was balanced, he carried himself and was safe as long as you wanted to move on. In reality I was massively over horsed, but he was another one that I bought at 6 months and produced.

 

[ester]

I think the training for a newby horse is important, make sure he will follow verbal orders, and most particularly that he will pull up when you relax contact. Make sure he is not fresh when you arrive and keep him on hi fibre type food. Keep your hands on his withers, and scratch him if he starts thinking [watch the ears], or walk round in nice circles with a light contact.

Michen's isn't a newby horse, she meant first time hunting this year, given her issues last! Hence the liverpool.

Friend used a swales on a particularly strong, inclined to pee off driving pony for a bit if that is a possibility? do you use the dutch gag with a curb out of interest?

 

[Goldenstar]

Get your hands on a controller noseband .
It teams up well with the Tom thumb ( which I always use two reins on ) English gag American gag Dutch gag and snaffles of course but that's not going to your option .
You need to think hard about hunting this type of horse .
H was a bit like this as a five year old he had be rushed to hunt as a hireling and scared excited and angry in equal measures .
He had two and a half seasons being taught to do the job properly and boy does it pay you back he went from a frightened over stimulated frightening thug to a well balanced well mannered but keen Gent .
Sometimes you just have to go back to basics and teach them the job properly but I accept that not every one can go Autumn hunting three times a week and hunting twice but that's what a thug needs Autumn hunting , gate opening duty for a season , watching on point , standing watching at a distance .more exciting days followed by boring ones .

 

[Michen]

Ah yes sorry as ester said. I meant first time this year. He hunted four times last year and I still didn't find a combo that worked.

I think the training for a newby horse is important, make sure he will follow verbal orders, and most particularly that he will pull up when you relax contact. Make sure he is not fresh when you arrive and keep him on hi fibre type food. Keep your hands on his withers, and scratch him if he starts thinking [watch the ears], or walk round in nice circles with a light contact.

 

[Clodagh]

I like a kineton, I used one with a waterford. A 3 ring gag with a back strap can be effective, I always use two reins. I love a double though. My mum always says a double is the only bridle for hunting and I admit she has a point.

 

[Hoof_Prints]

Trying to remember what you have all said, great advice ! thank you.
I think he needs something to just click him back in to gear, as he will pull, he snatches a bit and runs through it. I like the look of the Hanoverian Pelham , it seems to be jointed though so I don't know how the curb will work with that. I can't remember the names of the others but they look good! I have a tom thumb here, but it made my other mare's mouth bleed when my sister hunted her in it. Laughing at the image of horse running in to the pond, but also concerned something similar is going to happen to me soon! I tried bridging the reins and leaning back, he gets to the point where nothing works though. The scary thing was after all the pulling my arms just went weak and I was grabbing and grasping for reins but my hands were not working.

I have always been a snaffle person, I bring on and produce a lot of youngsters..so the super strong bits are a bit alien to me haha . I have a kineton, but I really need to keep his mouth shut as he will open and cross his jaw if he can, without a flash he canters round waggling his jaw from side to side. I actually have it on helmet cam where he took off so I can upload it and give you an idea of what my near death experience was like.

The controller noseband looks good, he needs to learn some respect, he is a type to get wound up , I am hoping the stronger bit will keep him calm if he has me to listen to. When I was typing the original post I was thinking "I wonder how long until someone tells me to school him better..." While I agree that helps, I mean we stay really balanced at 100mph round tight corners the rest does go out of the window sadly!

I have not used the gag with a curb, I assumed as it was a Waterford it would not have an effect, the bits mentioned all look good but it is figuring out what to try ! I have not tried another mouthpiece with the gag, I am not a huge fan of dutch gags anyway.

I don't know how jumbled up that post is, I keep skipping back to read the posts

 

[ester]

The curb would just stop it over rotating if he is head up, otherwise you can get to a point that you are just doing poll pressure and nothing on the mouth. I *think the same would apply with a waterford.

Is this your coloured chap or another?

 

[Hoof_Prints]

This is the coloured chap yes. I have took him out countless times hunting , team chasing, hacking, cross country, it is the first time I have felt in any sort of danger on him. Only had one fall on him in 4 1/2 years and that was a complete freak accident that took us both down! He has no nastiness in him, he is of an insecure nature though and I think he was treated roughly in Ireland.

 

[Doormouse]

I had a horse who was sold to me known to be very strong. My, they weren't kidding. I coped when I hunted him in the vale with deep ground but when we moved to a top of the ground country, one day was enough for me. We hurdle a stone wall, I landed in front of the saddle and had it not been for some seriously quick thinking by another member of the field I would have sailed over a very large hedge in that position! Quick thinking member saw my potential disaster and grabbed my reins and hauled him away from the hedge! All this occurred after he had jumped me clean off at a holly hedge 30 minutes before!
I gave him to my other half who hunted hounds off him for 3 seasons in a snaffle! He was brilliant at that job but woah betide anyone who over took him! My oh did take him out with another pack one day in the field and wouldn't listen to me when I said he needed a double bridle, he now admits that it was the first time in his life that he nearly came home at lunchtime!
I learnt to hold him in the field with a double bridle and a standing martingale but I still couldn't jump anything!

 

[chestnut cob]

I had a big, super strong horse and was asked a few times if he'd been a master's horse in a past life because of the way he was. I alternated hunting him in a waterford gag with two reins, curb on the bottom ring and a grackle noseband, and a jointed pelham with 2 reins and the same grackle. I managed to cope OK if I alternated the bits regularly. It's terrifying when you are taken off with like that and you haven't a hope in hell of stopping!

OP, is there a big strong man who could take him out a couple of times and see if they can improve his manners a bit for you maybe?

 

[Lanky Loll]

Can I just say... some horses just don't take to hunting. Rather than over bitting and possibly causing problems in the areas where he does behave why not just accept that it's not for him?

 

[Darkly_Dreaming_Dex]

Get your hands on a controller noseband .

H was a bit like this as a five year old he had be rushed to hunt as a hireling and scared excited and angry in equal measures .
He had two and a half seasons being taught to do the job properly and boy does it pay you back he went from a frightened over stimulated frightening thug to a well balanced well mannered but keen Gent .
Sometimes you just have to go back to basics and teach them the job properly but I accept that not every one can go Autumn hunting three times a week and hunting twice but that's what a thug needs Autumn hunting , gate opening duty for a season , watching on point , standing watching at a distance .more exciting days followed by boring ones .

I agree with the above, i have introduced many horses both young & old to hunting as well as some reschool/project ones. All bar one have settled well into the job.. so whenever i've had a horse lose the plot, it is usually because they have got so very over excited that they panic/don't know what to do with themselves, some bolt, some turn to stone then explode without warning- neither option is very nice.

What usually helps is to find the most "boring" non jumping/poking round the woods meets i can find & go 2 or 3 times a week hunting until they are tired but not exhausted. I will keep the horse towards the front of the field so there is no panic that they are being left behind and try to keep moving so that i never have a standing start to any action. I do find fox is better than darg or blood as it is less defined into strict lines and that keeps the horse interested and responsive rather than being "OMG gonna cart/buck/bounce for 20 mins then stand around" etc.

Bit wise i like two reins, one for a snaffle type feel and a curb rein for the OMFG i'm going to die moments .. lol
that way you can be very soft in case the panic is actually running away from the bit. FWIW i have yet to find any jointed bit that is effective on a strong horse, i prefer to go straight bar with reduced tongue pressure so yes the liverpool cherry roller is great, also sam marsh or mikmar, also like the myler wide port . not such a fan of cosquero or hannovarian as they have such a high port, it can really hit the palate & cause more issues than it resolves

 

[Hoof_Prints]

I will not take him if he continues to be a problem, however , four years of being a great little hunter and a cracking team chaser is pushing me to persist for now If he was acting like this from day one, I would not be in this position ! He is not really used for much else. I do know some strong men who could take him, but he is a light built 15.3hh and they would usually be riding 17hh-18hh HW hunters. I do have rather weak arms unfortunately, which does not help! I will think if I know anyone who has a death wish

He was better with the foxhounds the other week, this was a bloodhound pack where he charged off. I was a bit behind to normal to, I am usually at the front but found myself pushed back a little trying to find a space to jump. He is very different to how he was a few years ago, he would hack out relatively calmly in just a snaffle. I am going to get another vet's opinion on his teeth next week as I thought he was eating slowly tonight,

I hacked him out today in a kineton, tom thumb and flash noseband with a running martingale. It did look a bit like a torture device, but it was not that harsh really. He listened better but he is still fizzed up, I asked him to just slowly trot in a stubble field and he tried to take the bit twice on a steady canter but nowhere near as bad as when I took him out last week in his Pelham. I found that he was really crossing his jaw and messing with his tongue in this, which he doesn't normally do. So I don't think this is going to work, but it is a start! I am going to try and get hold of a sam marsh or mikmar first and go from there.

Thanks again for all the help, he was ready for the bullet last Sunday and I am feeling a little more optimistic haha. He just needs to calm down, I asked him to stand and wait and I could feel him bubbling up underneath me and he almost went to rear/explode (he has done this before!) but didn't, thankfully. I suppose a calmer of some sort may be worth a try too.