Need to get a very strong hunter listening.

[ester]

hmm there's a pattern forming, Michen's break failures are blood/drag hounding (can't remember which) I always wonder if it is too predictable/too much fun/not enough standing around. can you stop with the foxhounds for a bit?

 

[AdorableAlice]

Can I just say... some horses just don't take to hunting. Rather than over bitting and possibly causing problems in the areas where he does behave why not just accept that it's not for him?

He has taken to hunting and is enjoying it. A horse that does not take to hunting is the one that needs kicking along and refuses to jump.

 

[gunnergundog]

As well as playing around with tack options, consider throwing him out 24x7 and hunting off grass. It can be done - honestly. A friend on Exmoor has them all living out - fully clipped and well rugged. Also, not sure what country you are in but if you come to a hill, get off his mouth and kick him on - it may just shock him into listening as he is expecting you to be hauling him back. Some horses are just natural front runners; my ex-eventer was one. At the front he was mannered, civilized and a total dream. In the field he was a bleddy nightmare - on more than one occasion I was told it was like a bull (amongst other less polite things).

Personally, I would work on sorting the horse with foxhounds and getting him steady. Blood/drag hounds can take things to a different level.

Bits that allow the option of two reins can help clarify communication!

Good luck!

 

[Hoof_Prints]

I think the bloodhound pack can wind him up a bit more as we don't seem to keep a pace to jumps , with the foxhounds on days with lots of jumping, we just keep moving and he settles. I find with the bloodhounds lots of people will slam the brakes on coming in to jumps and you get a pile up of bouncy horses. Someone behind me, who normally goes with same foxhound pack as me got really annoyed and shouted at everyone to " ***** keep moving!" lol. He is used to holding back and waiting at close distance, but in open fields with the space he isn't expecting it.

He lives out fully clipped, rugged up the eyeballs where I am it is pretty flat, we do have a field not to far that is a bit hilly and goes on for much further than he can gallop . I did that with him last year and I think it was the first time I ever kicked him on! He is certainly a natural front runner. I will cut his food down as much as I can , actually now you have mentioned.. he is on a lot of rich grass as he used to be muzzled due to far too much rich grazing all year round, I took it off as I hate the bloody things but it might be worth popping it on and see if that helps.

He loves his hunting, he is just a bit strange in the head !
Foxhounds it is for now then while playing with bitting options.

 

[smja]

I think the bloodhound pack can wind him up a bit more as we don't seem to keep a pace to jumps , with the foxhounds on days with lots of jumping, we just keep moving and he settles. I find with the bloodhounds lots of people will slam the brakes on coming in to jumps and you get a pile up of bouncy horses. Someone behind me, who normally goes with same foxhound pack as me got really annoyed and shouted at everyone to " ***** keep moving!" lol. He is used to holding back and waiting at close distance, but in open fields with the space he isn't expecting it.

If you went with the BH pack I'm thinking of (in the NW?) then yes, there are a lot of less experienced riders who like to slow well down for all fences. Drives me batty.

I've taken friends' big youngsters for first trips with their non-jumping group though, which is very pleasant and friendly!

 

[JenHunt]

HP - I have a similar problem with mine. He's 22 this time round, and is IDx but still thinks he's a 3yo TB.

He's got it into his head that he knows best when out with hounds, and will just set his neck and ignore me if he decides to, even in a double bridle.

I have learnt that he's worse when not quite fit enough, or over fed, or too fresh. He now gets 3 or 4 long days at the start of the season off grass (we've got lots of good grass!) and then once he's starting to settle I'll start letting him have some hard feed (no cereals, all fibre and oil). If he gets fresh again then we'll reduce the feed and have a longer day... If I can get 10 good days in before Christmas he'll easily hunt the rest of the season in a myler snaffle.

hope you find a solution, there's nothing worse than feeling like you have no say in where you're going and how fast!

 

[RunToEarth]

Can I just say... some horses just don't take to hunting. Rather than over bitting and possibly causing problems in the areas where he does behave why not just accept that it's not for him?

He is a seasoned hunter as I understand from her OP?

I had a very strong little coloured horse who used to find any opportunity to lean on the Pelham and just set sail, it was terrifying, he once dragged me over a barbed wire fence to avoid a queue at a jump - I had no steering and no brakes, he was completely locked on and I just ended up having to throw the reins at him and ride him at it to stop him going through it.

Since then I hunted in an American gag with a Waterford mouthpiece, leather curb and a kineton noseband. I actually think the noseband was more effective than the kit in his mouth. I used to rotate between that and a Cheltenham gag with two reins as I found mixing it up stopped him from getting used to it!

 

[Mince Pie]

Deleted

 

[Hoof_Prints]

Replies on here have been so helpful, thanks. I have put him on a much simpler diet now, he is keeping his weight and has a sack of micronized linseed for when he starts dropping it. He has been on the flat this week and he had wound himself up at the weekend, so It took me about 2 hours to settle him and get him stretching low and chilling out! I am trying to take him back to being softer in the snaffle at home. He is going to a hunter trial tomorrow to lead one of my youngsters round, so hopefully he remains in control ! I have put a grackle on (that made a difference) putting the Waterford dutch gag in as I haven't had chance to try him in any new bits yet, and also going to pop a kineton on as it has been suggested a few times. I had never really considered using it before, will see how it goes ! Not sure how to attach a curb to the gag, but I will try to figure it out.

After tomorrow I am going to keep schooling him on the flat, try new bits when they arrive in open fields but try to settle him down as much as possible. I imagine he will be very strong tomorrow but he will be in front so fingers crossed we don't end up jumping the hedges in to the distance.. when I feel he is a bit calmer he will be out hunting again (hopefully in a few weeks!) I can take my 6yo out in the meantime.

 

[RunToEarth]

Not sure how to attach a curb to the gag, but I will try to figure it out.

I just used a spur strap with a small sheepskin slip (as much as he pulled my arms out, he was a sensitive soul) looped around the top hole of the bit, not too tight, but reducing the pivot point.

 

[ester]

Like RTE I use an old flash strap through the top rings, pretty loose, just stops it going all the way

 

[leflynn]

I have used waterford pelhams on a couple of horses that like to set their neck and do off (not even hunting just hacking and sometimes schooling). I'm only little so me versus a 16.3 cob xtb or 15.2 cobx welsh d meant I was off and away for abit before I could wrestle back control in anything! Worked a treat as he couldn't lean and nick off, hope you find something that works! Lucky that current ned is super polite and hunts in a loose ring snaffle, although this year might be different and I might be back lol

 

[Hoof_Prints]

Thanks I will give that a go with the curb. I have been trying to school him on the flat and he has been really wound up, the soft approach didn't work so I battled it out today, he was just turning in to a coiled up spring and throwing his head up, legs jittering everywhere. So I pushed him on and kept the pressure on the bit (just a snaffle), he starting lowering his head and then after a while he just dropped. I could at this point give him the reins and he stopped chucking his head up and running away. I would never have thought to use a tough method on him as he seems so sensitive, but I was getting frustrated and to my pleasant surprise he stopped fighting and behaved.

He is a strange horse, you have to ride him completely different to any other horse I've ridden .. and I produce youngsters and deal with difficult horses a lot.. so I've ridden a few different sorts! he is very odd. He is top of the herd and a real leader, I think this makes him harder to settle and be submissive when ridden, he is always on alert. Just a theory, I have found a similar issue with other "leader" horses. I didn't hunter trial him in the end as I thought it was too soon, might try him out with the foxhounds this Saturday so fingers crossed! just need to decide on what bit to use. Definitely sticking the kineton on though. The thought of loosing control again is making me feel a bit sick, but I know there is a very good little hunter in there somewhere. I was watching the helmet-cam videos from the last couple of years and you wouldn't think it was the same horse.

He is having a few last chances before I leave him with the hounds haha!

 

[Drayton]

Interesting thread!

 

[VoR]

Can I just say... some horses just don't take to hunting. Rather than over bitting and possibly causing problems in the areas where he does behave why not just accept that it's not for him?

100% with you on this, I had one which would gallop off with me, hunting on the hills one day wife said, 'canter him up there (very steep incline), that'll take it out of him', so I did, up that hill, down the other side without losing much speed, up the next hill and finally managed to halt him there.........so I tried to 'bit him up', landed me on my ar*e twice in 20 minutes with him almost coming back over on top of me as he was then over-bitted, had to give up, hunting is what I do, I only have time to manage one horse so sold him as a riding club horse, NOT to be hunted under any circumstances.....he went on to win a mass of ribbons for his new owner who loved him to bits and he lived a lovely life, hunting just wasn't his bag.

That said, my latest can be a bit of a handful early in the season, 'Calming Cookies' from Equine Science seem to work in taking the edge off him.....

 

[Hoof_Prints]

Just posting an update . We are hunting for the first time tomorrow since the bolting incident ! I have been hunting my lovely calm 6 yo, but he is having a few weeks off due to a minor strain. I have taken Finn right back to basics, work in the school first to get him listening again, with great success. Before this though I had his teeth checked again by my vet, and he found something the dentist hadn't. A slightly loose tooth turning inwards with sharp edges and a big spike! also similar on the other side, right at the very back upper teeth. The vet filed them right down and said he would not remove them as it would cause more issues, but to check again in a couple of months. Schooling-wise I had him responding purely to my seat (riding with no reins at all) and happily being submissive to his snaffle bit. Most importantly, staying very calm and collected. We even jumped some decent heights bareback in a snaffle very safely.

Then we schooled in the field , as he would light up and start dancing as soon as he hit grass, took 2 hours at a time but we got there finally. Cantering round the gallops on a light contact and slowly asking for more speed . Hacking was next , unfortunately he took off with my friend as he had a week off (I had warned her what he can be like) so I got him right back in to work again every day, even if not ridden it seems he needs the attention on the ground grooming, clipping, etc as he is a sensitive chap!

Now we have been hacking in a snaffle and cantering in open stubble fields in control. I took him out in his waterford gag and he was an idiot, yanking and pulling my arms off, so I think he has decided he hates it (after going so well before!) I have been taking him out hacking mostly after the schooling clicked in his head and applying it in new surroundings.

I tried him in a cheltenham gag today with rope sides and a grackle, he went really nicely and seemed so happy in the mouth, no yanking and fighting at all... so this is what we are trying tomorrow. If I feel him getting too upset we will go home, but fingers crossed he is back to his old self or close enough ! Wish me luck !