Neglect case where i keep my horses?

PonyFeet10

PonyFeet10

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Hey everyone, I'm looking for a bit of advice.

There are two other horses which are kept at the same yard as mine which are VERY fat, aren't ridden and are left out 24/7/365.

Last year they did have 3 of them, the one they lost was a 35+yo Section A gelding who was left out in the inches of snow with no hay, rug and water was frozen over more than 3" thick. He ended up collapsing in the field which is where the owners rang the vet and had him pts. (I really do think this lovely little old ponies death could have been prevented with a nice warm stable, food and water????).

Last winter a couple of months after the little ponies death I rang the ILPH as I was disgusted at the way they were being treated (or not treated!). The owner trims the horses feet himself when he can be bothered (they hardly EVER go down to even check on them!!) and i'm really concerned about them now. All the ILPH had to say last year was "If you're looking after them by feeding hay and breaking ice in the water trough then they'll be fine as they're too fat anyway" and as for their feet.. "They could do with a trim but they're fine and not badly overgrown".

I'm lost at what to do now as after ringing the ILPH last year the owners of these horses have clicked on that it was me who rang (theres only them and me on the yard) and i've had problems with the YO (as him and the owner of these horses are good mates) being really fussy over everything since.

Here's a few pics of one of the horses feet so you can see what they're like.. sorry about the mud surrounding them, their field is full of it!

Front feet

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Front Left

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Front Right

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Back Right

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Back Right again

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Any help or advice is much appreciated, the photos don't really show how bad they actually are. Also i couldn't get any pics of the other horses feet as they were caked in mud!
 
I'm not a foot expert but looking at the concave rings around the hoof wall I'd say it was a laminitic case waiting to happen plus the foot is very badly overgrown and needs a trim desperately.

Um, I dunno for sure, but I thought that only licenced people like farriers were allowed by law to trim feet? (any farriers reading can you enlighten???).

Personally I'd get your horse out of there pretty damn quick. Find another yard, move yours so there's no backlash, THEN ring WHW again and/or send them these picc's of the feet.
 
MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:
I'm not a foot expert but looking at the concave rings around the hoof wall I'd say it was a laminitic case waiting to happen plus the foot is very badly overgrown and needs a trim desperately.

Um, I dunno for sure, but I thought that only licenced people like farriers were allowed by law to trim feet? (any farriers reading can you enlighten???).

Personally I'd get your horse out of there pretty damn quick. Find another yard, move yours so there's no backlash, THEN ring WHW again and/or send them these picc's of the feet.
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Its a legal loophole. Anyone can trim, but only a farrier can prepare a horses feet for shoeing.
 
I agree that those feet aren't great but I can see why the ILPH (WHW) aren't interested. In the grand scheme of things if they are fat and sound they probably aren't that badly off compared to some of the horror cases they are dealing with.

Who owns the field? Can the have a word regarding checking the horses to make sure they are at least visited regularly? Have you tried to speak to the owner. I would be too chicken to do it myself but if you're brave it could be an option?

Such a shame about the old pony but if these two are fit and healthy they probably aren't going to come to too much harm

Sorry. That wasn't helpful at all was it.
 
My problem is, is that i pay £150 a month for all 3 of my horses which includes everything but an arena.. Any where else around where i keep my horses is about triple this :( So I do have a very good deal which I really don't want to lose out on, but as well I don't want to watch these horses suffer. I'm not sure whether to wait until we get further in to winter to see if they feed/break ice and then go from there? I'm more concerned about their feet though as I can help with feed (hay supply there and can take what we need) and water but not trimming.. Their feet have been like this for years and in all the time i've been there for (5 years) i've only seen their owners a handful of times, and they have NEVER had a qualified farrier trim their feet. The other has sandcracks working their way up his feet too and appear longer, not so spread out. Every year I 'wait' for them to get laminitis.. :(
 
jesstickle said:
I agree that those feet aren't great but I can see why the ILPH (WHW) aren't interested. In the grand scheme of things if they are fat and sound they probably aren't that badly off compared to some of the horror cases they are dealing with.

Who owns the field? Can the have a word regarding checking the horses to make sure they are at least visited regularly? Have you tried to speak to the owner. I would be too chicken to do it myself but if you're brave it could be an option?

Such a shame about the old pony but if these two are fit and healthy they probably aren't going to come to too much harm

Sorry. That wasn't helpful at all was it.
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I would talk to them myself but after them realizing it was me who called the ILPH last year they don't want to know, and won't listen to a thing i say.. The YO is not horsey at all and is a farmer. He literally doesn't give a s**t and as long as he gets his money thats as far as his interest goes :(
 
Tricky situation!

As far as welfare goes those feet, although not great as mentioned above, they aren't a welfare case.

Horses being fat is another problem-I know the welfare organisations would like the Welfare Act tightened up but at the moment they cannot act.

If you really are stuck there due to your budget there isn't a lot you can do.

As regards the Farrier law you can trim and shoe your own horses feet (daft I know) but no one elses!
 
foraday said:
Tricky situation!

As far as welfare goes those feet, although not great as mentioned above, they aren't a welfare case.

Horses being fat is another problem-I know the welfare organisations would like the Welfare Act tightened up but at the moment they cannot act.

If you really are stuck there due to your budget there isn't a lot you can do.

As regards the Farrier law you can trim and shoe your own horses feet (daft I know) but no one elses!
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Thankyou. I just think they look aweful :( I thought mine looked bad when they were over due for a trim!!!! It just looks like the weight of the horse has caused his feet to have grown more spread out rather than down.

As for trimming and shoeing your own horses feet, I have rasped off sharp edges but wouldn't have a clue how to re-balance and as for shoeing I wouldn't even know where to start!!!!!
 
PonyFeet10 said:
I would talk to them myself but after them realizing it was me who called the ILPH last year they don't want to know, and won't listen to a thing i say.. The YO is not horsey at all and is a farmer. He literally doesn't give a s**t and as long as he gets his money thats as far as his interest goes :(
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If you aren't going to leave, and they don't listen I don't really see what you can do. If you report them again to anyone they'll obviously click that it was you. If anyone else reports them they'll think it was you.

Rock and a hard place. If there was nothing I could do about something like this, and I'd tried all I could, I couldn't stay to watch it, and I certainly wouldn't be funding the farmer if he was blatently letting someone get away with incorrect treatment. However, as has been said above, obesity is a different problem that the legal stance is difficult on atm. They're not showing pain or suffering and the welfare charities have to prioritise their time and money.
 
I think you are making a fuss about nothing, and your comments about the 35yr olds (untimely?!) death being preventable with a 'nice warm stable, food and water' are anthropomorphic nonsense. Horses don't see them as 'nice warm stables' - they are draughty cold cages separating them from their herd. And you have already said they are fat, and they have a trough so I don't know where the food/water idea comes from.
The feet aren't the neatest trim I've ever seen, but neither are they a welfare case, and if WHW have already told you there's no issue then why would you pursue this vendetta?
If I were the owners of the horses, I'd find your behaviour very disrespectful.
N :D
 
O dear. I suppose your only option is to do the best you can by them and make sure they have water etc. I really feel for you though because whilst I recognise those feet aren't a welfare case I would hate to have to look at them and be able to do nothing about them :(
 
^^^^^^, agree with the comment about stabling, but I do feel that older gorses do need a little bit extra help, even with regards as a rug.

Although their feet arnt neat, I do not think they warrant a welfare case, however water 3 inches thick is unacceptable, how are they supposed to break through that?
 
Perhaps the only thing you can do is say my farrier will be in next ......do you want me to ask him to trim your horses feet at the same time--he charges £x for each trim.
 
I didn't think the feet that bad, yes they have broken off in several places but that is what happens if they were in the wild, and it happened to one of my mares when she was out all summer, and she's trimmed every 6 weeks. So you can either move or put up with the situation, plus I'd rather have a fat horse going into winter than a thin one and isn't it the farmers reponsabilty to make sure they have water all year round.
 
Very similar situation at my yard- only the feet were/get worse. Its so horrible seeing horses that are not treated to your expectations but as people have said there is not a huge amount you can do about it.
If they are over weight dont worry about food or hay- getting fatter in the long run will not help with there feet.
You can choose to turn a bit of a "blind eye" as i have had to do because same as you i cant afford to leave my yard or you can continue to stress about it and let it get you down. Either way wont make much difference to the horses but the first will help you enjoy your horse time with your horses more.

I know its harsh, I do keep a eye on the few at my yard and smash frozen water etc but try very hard to remain indifferent to them because it upsets me otherwise.
 
Nepenthe said:
I think you are making a fuss about nothing, and your comments about the 35yr olds (untimely?!) death being preventable with a 'nice warm stable, food and water' are anthropomorphic nonsense. Horses don't see them as 'nice warm stables' - they are draughty cold cages separating them from their herd. And you have already said they are fat, and they have a trough so I don't know where the food/water idea comes from.
The feet aren't the neatest trim I've ever seen, but neither are they a welfare case, and if WHW have already told you there's no issue then why would you pursue this vendetta?
If I were the owners of the horses, I'd find your behaviour very disrespectful.
N :D
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Same here..
 
Are you positive the owners never see the horses? My field owner thought I only went at weekends. He didn't realise that I am there every morning at 6.30am and every evening at 6.30pm, so was just never around when I was.
It's good of you to show a caring attitude towards the other horses, but like others have said, the feet actually aren't that bad. And I often break the ice on the pony next doors water when it gets frozen - and it can freeze very quickly, but I know his owners also visit twice a day.
Keep an eye on them as you have been, but they are probably quite happy hosses :-)
 
bj_cardiff said:
Same here..
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Ditto this. Yes the older pony perhaps should have had a rug on but at the end of the day he is a hardy pony. I knew a welshie that lived out 24/7 until he was 40yo! Also a welshie I knew had to be clipped every winter when he stayed in because he got too hot. The feet are a bit tatty but nothing horrendous- like other have said I've seen worse.
 
Thankyou for your replies everyone!

As their water was left last year until it was more than 3" thick without a break in it for the horses to drink from I would have thought that was cruelty anyway? As there is no other water supply in that field and that would mean they were being deprived of water?

For food there was 5"+ of snow last winter covering the fields which was also icey underneath, not giving the horses any hay, surely that's a form of starvation? As they couldn't get the grass underneath.. Not that there was much anyway lol.

I guess I have thrown all of this out of proportion and I'm just being silly and wasting peoples time but personally I don't think this is right even if the horses are overweight. Obese animals of any kind still have to eat???

Also for the drafty cold stable etc, the stables at my yard are not drafty at all and would be a lot warmer for any horse with a nice deep straw bed rather than standing outside with no shelter and icicles handing from their noses?

I'm sorry for the rant but I don't see how that's fair for the animals considering they were/are in a bare field. Surely wild horses can freely move from location to location to find food and water?

Cuffey - thankyou for that suggestion, I will try it, however the only way I can contact them is through my YO and the reply I always get from him is I'll see if I can get hold of them when I can.

Yes their feet aren't long and curling but in the flesh they look as though they are collapsing and are in worse condition than last year. I just compare them to my own horses feet and they look terrible.. How they are sound I'll never know!

Also when they have been brought in to their stables in the past (about 3 times in the last 5 years) they have been put in with a nice straw bed, haynet and water, and are then left for days (going in to well over a week plus!) without being given anything? I have had to give them water in their stables before as they had drunk it all and had been left with nothing for days.. They then drink the bucketful that i give them. For hay, when they've finished that haynet thats it until the owners decide to come down and check on them / give them some more. And for bedding, well all of the good straw is eaten when they've ran out of hay and then left to stand in their own muck until they get turned back out in the field again..

I can't believe any of you people think this is right? Please enlighten me if this is a right way to treat horses because i certainly don't think it is.
 
I would be tempted to take a series of photographs of the horses and frozen over waater troughs, print them off and time and date them so that you can demonstrate in cold weather that the owners are not coming up on a daily basis.
The recently introduced animal welfare act does give far more powers to the animal welfare organisations to prosecute owners of animals that do not look after them properly.
If you can't get anywhere with WHW then try the BHS Welfare Department as they have a volunteer representative within every county of the country.
 
OWLIE185 said:
I would be tempted to take a series of photographs of the horses and frozen over waater troughs, print them off and time and date them so that you can demonstrate in cold weather that the owners are not coming up on a daily basis.
The recently introduced animal welfare act does give far more powers to the animal welfare organisations to prosecute owners of animals that do not look after them properly.
If you can't get anywhere with WHW then try the BHS Welfare Department as they have a volunteer representative within every county of the country.
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Thankyou for that, thats very helpful. Would i send the photos to WHW? I'm just very concerned as i feel they have been like this for too long now, and with losing the older pony in the bad weather last year I kind of feel like I failed him by not seeing if I could do something sooner.. He could get around fine, if a bit stiff but being out in that horrendous(sp?) cold weather just completely crippled him :(
Many thanks for everybody who has helped me though! xx
 
I would suggest the BHS, if you had no luck with WHW, even if they just come and see the horses. Only problem is apart from the feet, the weather conditions aren't bad so your main concerns wont be viewed now. I agree, take pics and keep a diary, contact BHS and tell them everything and maybe they could come out and contact the owners to give them some advice and then if things don't change in the winter months the BHS will be aware and armed with seeing them previously.
 
How do you think ponies survive on the moors when it snows? Do they starve to death?!
The feet may not look pretty but they certainly dont look like a welfare case and the hoof is probably far stronger than your beautifully manicured horse's feet are.

Not having a water supply in the ice IS a definite problem and thats the only thing here that would worry me.

Your YO needs to take responsibility and be the one who ensures theyre sufficiently cared for. Not you.
 
TheMule said:
How do you think ponies survive on the moors when it snows? Do they starve to death?!
The feet may not look pretty but they certainly dont look like a welfare case and the hoof is probably far stronger than your beautifully manicured horse's feet are.

Not having a water supply in the ice IS a definite problem and thats the only thing here that would worry me.
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Very very much agreed!

Also when it comes to rugging - this can actually do more harm than good if the pony doesn't need it!
 
My horses lived out 24/7 all last winter, unrugged for the most part, no additional hay - even when it snowed.

I would break the ice on the water daily when I went up - in low temperatures the ice could be more than 3" thick every time. They were never dehydrated

I'm sure you'd love to have reported me for cruelty / starvation too, but I'm afraid my horses were an absolute picture of health and looked in tip top condition the entire time so you'd have been laughed out of the field. Unless you were at the field at 5.45am or after 7pm you wouldn't have seen me, but I was there every single day - would you have accused me of abandonment because you didn't see me?

They are horses, they've lived in harsher conditions for millenia. If WHW didn't have an issue then believe me there wasn't an issue. Those guys know their stuff and don't hesitate to step in where help is needed

But I guess you know best eh?
 
Twirly said:
My horses lived out 24/7 all last winter, unrugged for the most part, no additional hay - even when it snowed.

I would break the ice on the water daily when I went up - in low temperatures the ice could be more than 3" thick every time. They were never dehydrated

I'm sure you'd love to have reported me for cruelty / starvation too, but I'm afraid my horses were an absolute picture of health and looked in tip top condition the entire time so you'd have been laughed out of the field. Unless you were at the field at 5.45am or after 7pm you wouldn't have seen me, but I was there every single day - would you have accused me of abandonment because you didn't see me?

They are horses, they've lived in harsher conditions for millenia. If WHW didn't have an issue then believe me there wasn't an issue. Those guys know their stuff and don't hesitate to step in where help is needed

But I guess you know best eh?
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It's this sort of thing that would put anyone off making a report about any kind of cruelty, sadly, if the horses are having their water supply monitored by someone else, it makes welfare agencies case harder, but often this mind your own bloody business attitude is what gives a lot of horse owners such a bad reputation.
 
OP - haven't read all the posts so sorry if I reapeat.

YO has a legal responsibility to ensure that all animals on his premises are well looked after (whether he's interested in horses or not) - that is the law.

So your first port of call is to him, and tell him your concerns.

If he is not prepared to act - if of course there is a genuine problem - then you need to contact the WHW.

Good luck.
 
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