neurological hind limb lameness - experiences please?

cptrayes

cptrayes

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Hi, I'm just looking for more information and experiences from anyone who has had a horse diagnosed with hind limb lameness due to neurological issues.

The vet has just diagnosed mine, who suddenly went lame yesterday staggering on his back legs. He can just about stand still OK; in a straight line he wobbles about, and when he turns a circle he is almost falling off his feet behind.

We have him on bute for now and being kept quiet. If he does not show signs of improvement by Tuesday the vet wants to take spine xrays, from the neck back until we find something.

I've got no problem with that, but I don't want to put him through an hour each way journey to the hospital, the lorry ramps etc, unless there is a very good reason.

It is possible he has just pinched his spinal cord being a spring idiot in the field. There has been some wild behaviour in my little herd the last few days. But worryingly, he has had a slight toe-drag behind for about a month and if this is an escalation of that it may be much more serious.

If anyone has any experience of this can you let me know -

- what your xrays showed
- what treatment was different from having the xrays to go by (were they really necessary, or just nice to have)
- whether surgery was recommended, and if it was done, whether the horse returned to full work


Good and bad news would be equally of value to me right now, as this is a new one on me in over 30 years of being around horses and I am completely in the dark.

The horse is 10, a heavily muscled middleweight KWPN.
 
Hi
It does sound like possible wobblers to me.
If it is hind legs then likely to be compression of the C spine (neck). This could be genetic, one of those things (common in bigger horses) or due to an injury from a fall or some kind of trauma to the neck.
I have had (sadly) much experience of this (if it is neurological) and the prognosis was not good for my lad.
After ground tests and xrays of his C-Spine he was diagnosed with grade 2 wobblers - it was rapid onset and had got very bad within 6 months.

Henesy had no idea that anything was wrong with him, but he was gradually losing the ability to control his hind legs as the compression on his spine worsened. I could not leave him to get to the stage of lying down/rolling and not being able to get back up. It is also potentially dangerous (no riding allowed once diagnosed for obvious reasons). Horses with wobblers are also more likely to cause themselves serious injury (you can read some of my story in the veterinary pictures section).

I highly recommend that you get the xrays done.

Sadly for Henesy it was the end of the road - I turned him out for the summer last year and had him quietly pts in his field and I stayed with him until they came to pick him up.

I hope the outcome for you is a good one and that you don't have the heartache that I did.

I wish you well.
 
You may know this already but Kerilli in comp riders had a mare with a suddenly wobbily back end, think it may have been a virus that caused it in the end?
 
Could be anything causing it, it's very difficult to say. Have had xrays where the cervical vertebrae were misformed (8yr old) causing the ataxia. Not a good prognosis for him I'm afraid.
If he is v. ataxic I'd be in your very wary of travelling him camp, he could well go over. Is he on steroids? They can often make a massive difference. There is unlikely to be any benign 'pinching' of the spinal cord as for a 'pinch' to occur it is because there is something occluding it. Given the toe drag as well, I'd be suspicious of something going on. Could be viral-but has he been off colour?
Is your vet a referral level place?
X-rays are a must-can't diagnose a spinal injury without them, ay narrowing of the vertebral canal which could well be causing this and so on. They will determine treatment.
 
My friends horse had a similar thing, originally vet thought it was neurological problem in the neck. Less than 48 hours later he was pts. Steroids had no effect, at the end he was circling non-stop. More experienced vet had a look at the 2 videos that had been taken (one at the start and one at the end) and said he had seen similar symptoms in liver failure. Sorry, not what you wanted to hear.
 
Hi i will be following this thread with interest as i have got the same/similar problem at the moment. its either neurological or very severe pain due the recently diagnoise spavin?. The lack of cordination is only when i get on him, in hand, loose etc he's fine:confused:
 
Always Henesy said:
Hi
It does sound like possible wobblers to me.
If it is hind legs then likely to be compression of the C spine (neck). This could be genetic, one of those things (common in bigger horses) or due to an injury from a fall or some kind of trauma to the neck.
I have had (sadly) much experience of this (if it is neurological) and the prognosis was not good for my lad.
After ground tests and xrays of his C-Spine he was diagnosed with grade 2 wobblers - it was rapid onset and had got very bad within 6 months.

Henesy had no idea that anything was wrong with him, but he was gradually losing the ability to control his hind legs as the compression on his spine worsened. I could not leave him to get to the stage of lying down/rolling and not being able to get back up. It is also potentially dangerous (no riding allowed once diagnosed for obvious reasons). Horses with wobblers are also more likely to cause themselves serious injury (you can read some of my story in the veterinary pictures section).

I highly recommend that you get the xrays done.

Sadly for Henesy it was the end of the road - I turned him out for the summer last year and had him quietly pts in his field and I stayed with him until they came to pick him up.

I hope the outcome for you is a good one and that you don't have the heartache that I did.

I wish you well.
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I did not know it was common in big horses. That's not good news, he's nearly 17 hands. The toe-dragging is a worry. He was sound in spite of it, but it's been there for a few weeks, monitored with my vet, and he's "knuckled over" a couple of times when ridden. The real wobbling was very quick in onset, yesterday, but the history is very worrying.

Unfortunately Jazz knows full well that he is in trouble, and is also using his back muscles so much to stay on his feet that his back is sore too. The vet is, though, absolutely certain from the tests he did that this is neurological and not a muscle or joint issue.

I'm not hopeful, to be honest.
 
Pebble101 said:
My friends horse had a similar thing, originally vet thought it was neurological problem in the neck. Less than 48 hours later he was pts. Steroids had no effect, at the end he was circling non-stop. More experienced vet had a look at the 2 videos that had been taken (one at the start and one at the end) and said he had seen similar symptoms in liver failure. Sorry, not what you wanted to hear.
Click to expand...


He isn't moving unless asked to, and he is very bright with no other signs. I doubt liver failure as an issue but then I was also unaware that it could produce neurological symptoms of that kind (though I know that they can bang their heads on the wall at the end). So thankyou, I will certainly get bloods before doing anything drastic.
 
rockyneddy said:
Hi i will be following this thread with interest as i have got the same/similar problem at the moment. its either neurological or very severe pain due the recently diagnoise spavin?. The lack of cordination is only when i get on him, in hand, loose etc he's fine:confused:
Click to expand...

Mine also has spavin but has been sound on them for years and passed flexion tests a week ago which were done to check out the toe drag. Unfortunately mine is not even fine loose, though he was until I rode him for 20 minutes yesterday. We definitely did something during that time that made him much worse very quickly.
 
SusieT said:
Could be anything causing it, it's very difficult to say. Have had xrays where the cervical vertebrae were misformed (8yr old) causing the ataxia. Not a good prognosis for him I'm afraid.
If he is v. ataxic I'd be in your very wary of travelling him camp, he could well go over. Is he on steroids? They can often make a massive difference. There is unlikely to be any benign 'pinching' of the spinal cord as for a 'pinch' to occur it is because there is something occluding it. Given the toe drag as well, I'd be suspicious of something going on. Could be viral-but has he been off colour?
Is your vet a referral level place?
X-rays are a must-can't diagnose a spinal injury without them, ay narrowing of the vertebral canal which could well be causing this and so on. They will determine treatment.
Click to expand...



Sorry Susie, can you explain "travelling him camp", I don't understand. He is't on steroids and I have made a note to ask the vet about them when I update him on Tuesday.

He's not been off colour. In fact the most hopeful thing is probably what mad fools all my little herd have been messing around this spring. It is possible that this is "just" a tweak, but if it is, it's one hell of a tweak. I've never seen anything like it before :(

My concern at taking him to hospital for xrays is whether he can even get in and out of the lorry, or stand while it is in motion. And then whether there is any treatment possible which would keep him alive anyway. Surgery won't be an option, for a number of reasons. He's not exactly a "normal" horse I'm afraid, and long term paddock ornament is not an option either.

Unless choice of drugs would depend on what is seen on an xray, and those drugs would bring him sound and return him to work at some time in the future, then I'm still not sure that forcing him to travel will be in his best interests.
 
Thankyou everyone for sparing time to reply. It helps to know what we are dealing with, good or bad.
 
cptrayes said:
He isn't moving unless asked to, and he is very bright with no other signs. I doubt liver failure as an issue but then I was also unaware that it could produce neurological symptoms of that kind (though I know that they can bang their heads on the wall at the end). So thankyou, I will certainly get bloods before doing anything drastic.
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Her horse was OK without any other signs as well, still eating at the end. However she never had a PM done so it was not definate.
 
'

Sorry Susie, can you explain "travelling him camp", I don't understand. He is't on steroids and I have made a note to ask the vet about them when I update him on Tuesday.

He's not been off colour. In fact the most hopeful thing is probably what mad fools all my little herd have been messing around this spring. It is possible that this is "just" a tweak, but if it is, it's one hell of a tweak. I've never seen anything like it before

My concern at taking him to hospital for xrays is whether he can even get in and out of the lorry, or stand while it is in motion. And then whether there is any treatment possible which would keep him alive anyway. Surgery won't be an option, for a number of reasons. He's not exactly a "normal" horse I'm afraid, and long term paddock ornament is not an option either.

Unless choice of drugs would depend on what is seen on an xray, and those drugs would bring him sound and return him to work at some time in the future, then I'm still not sure that forcing him to travel will be in his best interests. '

I meant-I would also be concerned about travelling him and as you say him getting safely on and off the lorry.
Steroids will for example do very little good if it is a vertebral malformation as seen on xray but if it is trauma related or (I think) meningitis related they could be very very useful-although the symptoms sound more spinal and sounds like that is where the vet has localised them to. A fracture might just require rest, or it might be a case of him having steroids injected locally to a lesion-it really is something that needs further diagnostics. The wait and see option isn't really fair on you or him as he may have a hopeless prognosis or it may not be so bad. Most ataxia causes don't have surgical treatments anyway. Does he have a temperature?
Is the place you're taking him referral level? Just thinking from the point of view if he has to travel, he might as well travel somewhere that's really hot on their neuro.
 
Thanks Susie, that's helpful. No temperature, normal gut and wee, normal heart, thankfully. I can easily see how he could have bust a neck vertebra. They were galloping madly around inside a 30x10 metre barn yesterday morning. The walls come up pretty quick.

It's a vet hospital but I don't think it would be called referral level. They usually refer to Leahurst but that's two hours, two and a half at the speed he would have to travel :(

On the bright side, I checked him just now and he has definitely improved since this morning, so at least the bute is doing something to help any pain, if nothing else is going on. At least he should be able to stand still more comfortably tonight.
 
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That's a good sign- if its trauma related i.e inflammation bute will be reducing the inflammation-trauma and soft tissue damage is probably your best prognosis at the moment.
 
Thanks Susie.

Ironically, if he is well enough by midweek I'll be getting him there for xrays pronto. If he has a susceptibility to trauma to the spinal cord somewhere, as I think he must to have these severe symptoms, then I need to know where it is and how to manage it.
 
My mare has this, was very wobbly, especailly when travelling. When looose or under saddle she had hyperflexion of her hocks (which have been injected), stringhalt like. She was referred to the vet school in cambridge, who after xrays and examinations discovered a fracture at the base of her neck - not impinging the spinal cord though and a fracture of her sacral bone in her pelvis, which has caused nerve damage (causing the hind leg action). She had a fall in the trailer back in October which is when they think the damage was done, even though she was sound straight after, the continual work and possible tweak may have finished it off. She will also stand and stamp, both when in and out which the vets have said is due to the shooting pains which the nerves are giving off whilst trying to regrow. She has been but on a low dose of gabapentin, which she has had for 2 weeks (all this has happened in the last couple on months) but it has done nothing. From tuesday she will have the dose doubled in the hope it will help. If is doesnt then she will be PTS
 
Thanks Catherine, that's very interesting, especially the delayed onset. My boy was sound until about 20 minutes into a session when I turned a tight circle and something "went". That would fit with an earlier fall, causing an injury which caused the toe drag, which then went critical yesterday due to the tight turn. Thanks for posting.
 
the toe dragging reminds me of a horse i worked with a few years ago - he was/is a shiverer. The disease is genetic and is something that deteriorates with age. Each horse can take different times to deteriorate though.
 
Thanks Coss. I don't know much about shiverers. He's never had a problem having his feet picked out and I thought that was one way that it showed. Do they also go ataxic - very wobbly on the hind end, especially on a circle?
 
cptrayes said:
Thanks Coss. I don't know much about shiverers. He's never had a problem having his feet picked out and I thought that was one way that it showed. Do they also go ataxic - very wobbly on the hind end, especially on a circle?
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i no expert - i think it depends on each individual case, usually one leg worse than the other but the horse i worked with was i think about 16 so had a few years on your horse to develop the shivery leg when picking out. as the horse wasn't mine and it didn't affect us in our work other than him being stiff and lacking engagement (it improved but only to a certain extent with work) i haven't done a lot of research. The little i do know suggests that it does affect different horses in different ways though -sorry that's probably not much help :o

I did have a friend with another horse (on loan) that i suspect was also a shiverer though different to the above. He actually collapsed whilst ridden and would sometime collapse when standing out in the field (which is why they didn't keep him). He didn't maintain condition easily and didn't have shivery feet for picking out. Had competed to a highish level of dressage (medium+) but couldn't engage fully by the time they got him (i tried him out for them) so wobbly, yes, i think you could say he did get to that stage but different to your case :o
 
Six years ago, I had a yearling gelding who came in from the field looking drunk, falling over 6 times on the way up the field to the yard, and doing a hideous uncoordinated canter trying to keep up with the others on his way in.

He was very unsteady on his feet. Any fingertip pressure from the side on his quarters would make him so unsteady he'd almost fall over. He had no tone in his tail. You could lift it up vertically and there was no resistance. He found it very difficult to even turn round in the stable without losing his balance.

I spoke to Tim Phillips at Liphook in general terms (Liphook had been suggested to me as THE place for wobblers stuff). He pretty much said we had 3 options:

- try and prove he was was a wobbler (Xrays etc)
- give him time and see if he improved
- pts

He also said if it was wobblers, we were unlikely to see any improvements.

However, he also said that if it was wobblers, then there is more chance of success with an op the sooner it is done.

We opted to give him time. I kept a detailed log of observations, and started to notice very small things, like that I could pick a foot up for a second or so without him losing his balance, and building up from there. It gave us hope to continue.

Within about four months, he was pretty much back to normal.

Oh, I was also told there could be other things that could result in similar signs:

Equine herpes myelitis was something that has been suggested to me more recently.

Don't know if any of that is helpful or relevant, but hope you get to the bottom of things, and that he can be helped.

Sarah
 
Had this horse been wormed with an Ivermectin based wormer, injected with Dectomax or both?...... I'm convinced we have had "wobblers" brought on by this means.
 
Is it not possible to have the X-rays done at your place? I had an 11 months old colt go from completely normal in the am, refusing to lift his head above the level of his back in the pm, and completely ataxic by the next morning. He was diagnosed with high grade 3 Wobblers, which was verified by a series of X-rays a few days later. He had spinal compression at C4/C5. The option of travelling him in my trailer to the vet was out of the question. Because of his tender age, I decided to adopt a dietary regime, suggested by my vet, of stringently weighed hay, based on a percentage of his weight, and a high dose of Vitamin E daily. After 3 months I did see a vast improvement. I won't bore you with all the details that I've posted before, but, to make a long story shorter, he's still with me and is rising 3 years of age. He is now considered a low grade 1. He has full proprioception and never drags his feet. He will never be ridden or driven, and, yes, he is a huge Shire field ornament. He owes me nothing. Whether this could be a possibility for your horse remains to be seen. The X-rays should be most revealing. I wish you all the best.
 
Well Sarah, that's the first recovery anyone has told me about, so it does help, thankyou.

Spook I haven't wormed him recently, he's due now. I did him with Moxidectin (same drug as dectomax but oral?) last autumn and in the meantime he learnt 3 time tempis. He did them well for a month or so and then suddenly couldn't get the left/right change on a straight line any more. Shortly after that he began to toe drag one foot. He knuckled over on that foot a couple of times while I have been riding. My overnight research suggests that all this is connected, and if so, it doesn't look good :(

Rutland I think we would want to go on to the back if the neck doesn't show anything and I think we need the big machine at the hospital to do his back. I'm not sure, I'll find out. It's a good suggestion though, we can at least get his neck done without travelling and that may be enough if the problem is in his neck.

This horse is mentally very challenged with a number of other problems that I would hesistate to ask anyone else to take on. I don't think he can be kept as a pasture ornament, especially not here on a field that slopes by 25% and is difficult to walk on even with your full senses. He is violent, in the extreme, to any new horse. I certainly wouldn't want him in my field if I didn't already have him :(

I will be gutted if I lose him. I have fought for 6 years to overcome his problems (many and dangerous!) with all my friends asking why I bother. He has just given me my lifetime dream - tempis. He's a beautiful, shining, fit, emotionally dependant, utterly loving, gorgeous creature. Please cross your fingers for him.
 
OP, there is one other thing that keeps coming to mind for me, but it's something that I am wondering about with my gang, and I have no proof of it yet.

But with you saying your boy has had a toe drag for a month or so, and also that he is very aggressive with other horses...

So I'll mention it, but like I say it's a bit of a hunch with my gang at the moment and it may or may not have any relevance to your boy.

EPSM (equine polysaccaride storage myopathy) is known to cause ataxia in some horses.

I've been reading around more widely on muscle diseases, so looking at diseases other than EPSM, and of course whatever the actual muscle disease, the fact that muscle can't function properly can result in similar signs with different diseases.

I've had a string of ponies who all seem to end up succumbing to something, usually involving a lack of desire to go forward, and I've had various tests and investigations done.

I think what we've reached now is indications that it is a chronic form of selenium deficiency. I should say that the two blood tests I've had done on different ponies do not confirm this, and yet their symptoms seem absolutely right IMHO for selenium deficiency.

Selenium deficiency is known to cause white muscle disease (aka nutritional muscular dystrophy) in foals and also in adult horses, although this is more unusual.

It typically causes an odd stilted hindlimb action (in common with other muscle diseases), and affected horses have raised muscle enzymes.

I've become aware that a lot of hay/grass from all around the UK is deficient in selenium, and I'm astonished that there aren't more cases of horses succumbing to selenium deficiency.

It probably isn't what's happening with your boy, but who knows. It might be one more thing to keep an open mind on. And the thing with a Se deficiency is that you have a good chance of reversing it, with appropriate selenium supplementation.

My hay (off lovely rich-looking grass) only has around half of the selenium recommended by NRC. It is well within the range considered deficient in many papers. I have not supplemented fully with balancers etc, and so even with a bit of hard feed, it wasn't raising the levels enough.

Anyway, long and short, it may just be worth having a blood test and at least including muscle enzymes, and if they're elevated looking a little further (of course they could be elevated because he's ill and using his muscles awkwardly at the mo). Are there any previous blood tests he's had done that you could check muscle enzyme levels on, because if this has been something going on longer term, then it'll probably show up as just slightly raised levels of CK and AST enzymes?

Like I say, a long shot, but it is something you can do something about if it's that, although appropriate supplementation can take up to 5 months or so to take full effect.

Sarah
 
Sarah thankyou for taking the time to write that. I'm open to all suggestions. I didn't know that EPSM could cause ataxia. Apart from a minor sensitivity to too much grass, he shows no other signs of it. I think from your post and other suggestions that blood tests for muscle enzymes, liver function and mineral balances is definitely in order.

The vet did a number of tests yesterday which he said rule out it coming from his brain and locate it to the neck or back. I suppose that's a help, at least.

If there are any nutritionists reading, do you know the effect of copper overdose? I supplement copper, but only up to the level which is already in Copper Trition, a product sold with no warnings of overdose. I also supplement magnesium, which I understand should be excreted away if given in excess. I have two other horses on the same regime who are not affected, but we all know how individual they are!

He's walking much better today as long as he does not turn. And to my surprise, he lay down last night, which must be a very good sign, surely? He is also occasionally shaking his neck in a way which is definitely not characteristic of him. A clue, maybe.
 
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