neurological hind limb lameness - experiences please?

Found the following about selenium in a H&H article:

Take care if feeding a selenium supplement. Selenium is toxic in high levels causing apparent blindness, staggering, colic or even death. If high levels are fed over a long period of time, chronic poisoning may be apparent in loss of mane and tail hair and separation of the hoof wall from the foot at the coronary band.
 
Thanks Pebble101 I'm reasonably sure that my farmer neighbours have low selenium levels rather than high ones, and I don't supplement any more than is in my general purpose haylage balancer. I'll be able to check this with a friend tomorrow.

Seabiscuit was poisoned with it, wasn't he? Or was it Phar Lap whose feet fell off??
 
Hello, My 6yr BWB horse recently was diagnosed with Ataxia/Wobblers. It all started off with being fine one day and the next day really stiff when ridden on a circle on one rein, after that one session he'd wore his hind toes out.
We had a new horse in the field and really thought he'd been running about and pulled something in his neck or back. He was then in for 10 days due to the snow and afterwards taking him out in the school he'd wore his hind toes out even more. He was shod, but he actually had a hole in them.

He wasn't what you would call lame persay but he really couldn't move well behind. I got the farrier back who had made a terrible job of his feet as they were all unlevel but in hindsight the poor shoeing had amplified the gait abnormality. I had a chiro in who said he was very tight in his lumbar and then equine massage lady in. In which after that session we agreed next stage after sorting his feet out it was to the vet for a lameness workup. I watched as the vet did doing all the neuro tests and I knew where it was heading.

The vet suggested a Xray of his neck and it came back confirming that he had lipping and spurring of C3/C4 vertebrae. I took him to the vets as they would not be able to get a good quality portable xray at the yard. If you can it's better to box there, but tbh be prepared for the worse. The vet was very grave about the situation and he was graded 2, progressive to 3. He felt a bone scan would possibly reveal other skeletal issues in his back. He felt that a Myleogram would be very risky for a wobbly horse under GA.

Within 3 months from that stiffness the symptoms got worse, dropping hind toe mid flight, hind fetlock knuckling, shortening of stride, walking behind like he was walking on a tightrope, dropping front toes mid flight, standing one hind in front of the other and pointed out, sometimes at a 90 degree angle?!, front fore feet started to twist in and he paddled with his forefeet as he walked, swung his hinds out on a turn, screwed his hind toes and hocks as he walked, swivelled on his hinds as he turned on a tight circle and he couldn't go more than 3-4 strides backwards without getting stuck, his hinds would tremor when you picked them up and he wobbled terribly.

I wanted to give him the summer out in the field before making my decision. I'd tried to move him one evening when tied up to groom him and he fell against me and squished me against the wall. I managed to manoeuvre out between him and the wall and he slomped against the wall all twisted. He never moved his legs to save himself. I took him back to the vets 6 weeks later after initial diagnosis and the vet was very shocked how he'd deteriorated and graded him finally a 3. We agreed to PTS and I had to say goodbye to my beautiful boy last week. I beat myself up for weeks prior wanting to try to do the right thing.

If it is ESPM or Ataxia high doses of Vit E can be very helpful for neuro issues.

I hope that you get a answer for your horse quick and I think your best option would be to have a neck xray to confirm if it could be Ataxia. If you can't box your horse and its dangerous to do so that is a real worry. You have to think of your safety and others. Ataxia can sometimes stabilise, but in our case it got worse. Those cases that got better were those horses/foals <3yrs.

Please pm me if you have any questions. As I think I've possibly ready every document and web page going on the subject.
Applecart14 also had a wobbly horse and was initially wrongly diagnosed ESPM and then finally Wobblers was very kind and helpful, so maybe worth a pm.

All the best let us know how it goes.
 
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GUG, that sounds horribly familiar :( We already have hind fetlock knuckling for the last few weeks and now this sudden deterioration, which we also thought was due to messing about in the field. Thanks for the vitamin E suggestion, I didn't know that could help ataxia. I'll buy some tomorrow. I'm not hopeful. The more I think about it the less I think he can possibly be kept alive as a paddock ornament. I have to find a cure, or have him put to sleep.

Is it 12,000 - 30,000 iu of vitamin E like for EPSM?
 
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You can buy vitamin E gelcaps from health stores. I tend to buy mine online from Holland & Barrett. I opt for the 1,000iu gelcaps - that is generally considered the amount recommended as a daily intake (though if they are on grass, they should be getting plenty from the grass). I just drop the gelcaps into a feed with some chaff, and most of the time the ponies will eat them.

With the boy who has ongoing muscle problems, I've given him up to 5,000iu vit E/day and that is just fine. Vit E "does not appear to be toxic to horses even at relatively high intakes" say NRC.

vitamin E, along with selenium, are both known to be powerful antioxidants.

Sarah
 
I have to back up the liver problem linked to back legs not working. I have a pony with liver failure. (All I seem to post about these days!). You would never know there was anything wrong with him, apart from the fact that his back legs are definately not connected to his brain!

I would say that, due to the sudden onset, this would not be the case for your horse. I do hope you find an answer soon and that it is good news.
 
Do have a look at Omega 369 oil from Horsehealth. it is expensive but does have a high dose of vit E. Cant remember what though but it is on their site. The human capsules may hold a higher dosage and maybe better option.

FYI The lameness workup at the vets, xrays etc cost about £300. Ataxia is very common in WB's. Once the spinal cord gets pinched/damages and the nerves start to be killed off there are very limited options.

If you can I would personally try to get to the vet to ensure you can get your answer asap.
 
Thanks GUG I'll be ringing the vet on his mobile at 9 tomorrow morning.

He had his bute reduced to 1 morning and 1 evening today and I also left his buddies in the barn with him to keep him company as he frets badly on his own. Whether they have made him walk around more and he is tired, or the reduction in bute has allowed his spinal cord to swell again, he is less stable on his feet now than he was this morning :(

I want the Vit E in a hurry, so I'll be going to Holland and Barrett for human gel capsules Sarah, thanks.

I'm really wondering now. His father is a Grand Prix showjumper, but Jazz made it very clear that jumping is not for him. When we tried to teach him at 4 years old, we could get him to jump one fence, but put a related distance together six strides apart and he would jump neither. At the time, I used to blog that he did not seem to trust himself to know where his feet were. After he broke my shoulder crashing through a cross country fence, we gave up trying to teach him to jump and converted him to dressage, which he's shown a huge talent for. But now I can't help wondering if this is not what stopped him from being able to jump in the first place, and has actually been creeping up on him for 6 years. I am not at all hopeful as things stand.
 
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Last year we had a clients horse in, an 8-y-o KWPN, he showed hind toe dragging, which we initially thought might be due to lax stifles. He had a couple of odd episodes including exploding when being mounted at competitions. We initially thought this was tension.

Then his movement gradually become very rag doll like, limbs floppy and uncoordinated. He also began to suffer lymphangitis episodes and became very grumpy.

X-rays showed pinching in the cervical area, I'm sorry I can't remember exactly where and also pinching in the thoracic, again cannot remember exactly where. X-rays also showed damage to the left scapula.

He was made comfortable with steroid injections and bute but was PTS a week later as he began to stumble just being led out to the field and got cast twice.

I hope the outcome is better for you.
 
Thanks Worried, he is also a KWPN. I am less and less hopeful the more I know. I have taken the other two out of his barn tonight as I do not think he is strong enough to be in with them. He walked past us and we had to jump out of his way as his back end gave way and he almost fell over on us. It is heartbreaking to watch such a proud, strong horse look like a drunken fool.

Exploding has simply been "par for the course" behaviour for Jazz since I got him as a newly broken four year old. Of course you look back with massive hindsight and wonder how much of that wierd behavour was due to the panic of not knowing where his feet were.

We are going to be very, very lucky if he comes through this, the odds are firmly against him.

Thanks for the information everyone, do keep posting even if it is bad. I much prefer to know where we stand than to try to look on the bright side if there really isn't one to look on. I showed him to a friend tonight and she was shocked and we both burst into tears. At least this has been quick onset and not dragging on undiagnosed for years.

Hey ho, no-one ever said life was fair.



p.s. the lynphangitis is interesting. One back leg has been subject to filling slightly all winter that I could find no reason for whatsoever.
 
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Identical to us, with hindsight we wondered why we didn't spot things earlier. Inside a week he became an empty shell we we're all devastated, I'm keeping everything crossed for you its not wobblers.
 
The vet has been this morning. Luckily he has only recently completed a course in neurological problems. He is convinced that the problem is originating in his back behind the saddle and that it has been caused by a field accident and not by gradual degeneration. He says that there is too much pain in the loin region itself to be accounted for by the problem being anywhere else. The neck and spinal process xrays are happening here later in the week and a physio is coming up later today.

He does accept that the toe drag was probably something to do with it. In that case, he tweaked himself a month or more ago and has nursed it along, but then did it good and proper in the mad moment we heard them have the morning he went ataxic. What I don't understand is why his back was so soft in that area all through the time he was dragging his toes. I was checking it regularly because of the toe drag.

Anyway, he says it's too soon to write him off so I have lost a night's sleep for nothing, but at least there is still hope.
 
and has actually been creeping up on him for 6 years??

strangly i can pin point specific 'events' over the last 6 /7 years that i questioned but because 'it' never affected his performance let it go. He also passed a lameness check with flexions and the opinion of the vet was your horse is sound, but does'nt exactly move well for a horse of his type. This in fact lead me to take him barefoot to improve his way of going. been happily working/competeing barefoot for 18mths. Now this:confused:
 
I'm glad to read that things look a bit brighter for your lad this morning :-)

It might not be at all relevant, but i had a similar incident with my daughters old 14.2 comp pony about 18 months ago. We were devastated as vet said he thought PTS very likely. He was turned away at a friends while recovering from an injury, in a small, flat, well fenced field & no sign of anything strange gone on. He was found shaking, wobbling & almost unable to move except shuffle backwards. Vet took bloods which didn't show anything, we wondered about pinched spinal cord or wobblers. He didn't have any x-rays as we couldn't travel him but had 2 danolin a day & then some very strong drugs for dogs! (Sorry i can't remember what they were called as very distressed at the time)
After seven days i decided that he needed to come home in case of worst happening, vet said that he didn't know how he'd travel but that we could try. I drove at a snail's pace & it took 45 mins to do a 20 min journey. He was fine & so, so pleased to be home. I kept him in for 24 hours & was worried as he didn't drink or wee but happily ate well soaked hay. Thinking that this was it, i decided to turn him out as bright sunny day & i knew he would love some grass, he surprised us all by cantering across to his friends :-) He did have another 8 weeks off but did return to work & even did some XC comps before being semi-retired to a friend to hack. He is still going strong & was 21 yesterday :-)
 
Good news that you're getting some xrays etc. I hope that you have a positive outcome and a diagnosis. Is pain relief helping or not?

My horse was v tight and solid in his lumber and his hamstrings. The equine massage helped to loosen up but highlighted wobbly wonky legs even more.

Fingers x'd for you. Stay positive.
Let us know the outcome. :)
 
rockyneddy said:
and has actually been creeping up on him for 6 years??

strangly i can pin point specific 'events' over the last 6 /7 years that i questioned but because 'it' never affected his performance let it go. He also passed a lameness check with flexions and the opinion of the vet was your horse is sound, but does'nt exactly move well for a horse of his type. This in fact lead me to take him barefoot to improve his way of going. been happily working/competeing barefoot for 18mths. Now this:confused:
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The vet says that even with severe ataxia originating in the neck it would be extremely unusual to identify as much pain in the loins as Jazz is showing. He's convinced it's an injury, not a slow nerve degradation over time. He doesn't rule out a vertebra weakness, but he also thinks there is a fair possibiility, with a long rehab, of him returning to his previous level of work.

His movement before this was pretty stunning, so although he never would jump, whatever it was that was stopping him didn't stop him producing points-winning elementary work, competing medium and learning advanced at home.

I'm all set for a long, long rehab, starting with physio today and then a week of intense physio as a boarder while I am away for a week next week (what timing!).

I hope you get a better understanding of what is going on with your horse soon.

We are having xrays at home on Friday which I hope will rule out any problem in the neck, which would be more likely to be degenerative.

Mine has always been barefoot, which is just as well because he'd be damaging himself badly with shoes on by kicking his own legs and standing on his own feet :(
 
HazyXmas said:
I'm glad to read that things look a bit brighter for your lad this morning :-)

It might not be at all relevant, but i had a similar incident with my daughters old 14.2 comp pony about 18 months ago. We were devastated as vet said he thought PTS very likely. He was turned away at a friends while recovering from an injury, in a small, flat, well fenced field & no sign of anything strange gone on. He was found shaking, wobbling & almost unable to move except shuffle backwards. Vet took bloods which didn't show anything, we wondered about pinched spinal cord or wobblers. He didn't have any x-rays as we couldn't travel him but had 2 danolin a day & then some very strong drugs for dogs! (Sorry i can't remember what they were called as very distressed at the time)
After seven days i decided that he needed to come home in case of worst happening, vet said that he didn't know how he'd travel but that we could try. I drove at a snail's pace & it took 45 mins to do a 20 min journey. He was fine & so, so pleased to be home. I kept him in for 24 hours & was worried as he didn't drink or wee but happily ate well soaked hay. Thinking that this was it, i decided to turn him out as bright sunny day & i knew he would love some grass, he surprised us all by cantering across to his friends :-) He did have another 8 weeks off but did return to work & even did some XC comps before being semi-retired to a friend to hack. He is still going strong & was 21 yesterday :-)
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Oh wow, a good news story with identical symptoms. Thankyou!!!
 
GiddyUpGirl said:
Good news that you're getting some xrays etc. I hope that you have a positive outcome and a diagnosis. Is pain relief helping or not?

My horse was v tight and solid in his lumber and his hamstrings. The equine massage helped to loosen up but highlighted wobbly wonky legs even more.

Fingers x'd for you. Stay positive.
Let us know the outcome. :)
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The Vet has warned me that physio may well loosen him up and make him stagger worse, but is adamant it's the right thing to do for him. He got a lot worse when the bute went down from 4 a day to 2 and I forgot, in the stress of it all, to ask what to do from now on. I'm waiting on a call to let me know.

I am extremely lucky to own a 30 yard long barn with a soft surface. At least if he goes down he won't get cast, and he has room to keep moving gently. I've just checked him and he looks far better than he did this morning or at 2am last night.

I'm not good at staying positive. I usually prefer to look on the black side and then be pleased when it doesn't happen! I can't keep that up for months though, and this is beginning to look long-haul unless we see something drastic on the xrays, so I'll have to change the habit of a lifetime.

Your support (and everyone's) is very much appreciated. Thankyou everyone.



p.s. I offered the vet to do as many bloods as he wanted but he said he thought it would be pointless to do anything but EHV, and he is pretty certain that will come back negative. He offered to do liver/muscle enzymes etc if I wanted but he did not want them himself so I haven't asked him to do them.
 
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What a horrible, horrible worrying situation for you. Nothing to add other then I have all fingers and toes crossed for you. Is there any reason why the xrays aren't being done straight away? Friday seems a long way away!
 
It's when this particular vet has time in his diary for us not to rush things.

He's a big horse, it's going to take a long time to get all the shots we'll need. He could have done Thursday at a squeeze. He's only just done a course on neurological lameness, so I don't want anyone else. And he is convinced that with sufficient time, there is a "good" chance that Jazz will come right, so he doesn't see any medical/humane reason to rush. I think he knows exactly where he is expecting his spine to be out of alignment and will be surprised if he finds a congenital malformation in the neck. So from his point of view, these xrays are for confirmation of a diagnosis he has already made, not to make the diagnosis. I'm not suggesting that he is inflexible or has completely made up his mind, just that there are so many signs that he is seeing that there is a very likely cause, and he is not seeing any of the signs he would expect if it was a neck or brain issue. Also the fact that his rehab, if he makes it, will be months not weeks. He made it quite clear that he would have to deteriorate a lot more than he has more before he would be looking at putting him to sleep.

It would be good to have them sooner, but I'd rather have the right man. But you are right, Friday is a long way away!
 
Just to answer the xray question we were talking about yesterday. The portable xray is only powerful enough to do the neck and the spinal processes of the back. To get the back vertebrae he will have to go to hospital. But the spinal processes on either side of the injury should, in theory, be out of alignment and enable us to confirm the site of the injury by that. If we can't find anything on those xrays and he fails to improve then he will have to travel to the hospital, at snail's pace, for the bigger machine.
 
Update today is not good. He is moving better, but the physio has just been and is totally convinced that the back pain is referred and muscle spasm. From the tests she did on his neck he is able to bend the top and the bottom but he has a piece in the middle that he cannot bend, which stays as straight as a board, particularly in the direction of his weaker hind leg. I could see it clearly myself. She wasn't prepared to do anything else with him until we see the xrays, for fear of causing more problems.

She's left me with stuff to do with him, as often as I can, which will stop his proprioceptors dying off if we can keep the nerves stimulated. They include fixing curb chain round his ankle for half an hour and then moving it over to the other foot. Whilst she was filling out her forms his neck cracked like a gunshot. Not good.

She says there is a lot we can do to get him better, but I am not holding out any hopes. I certainly wouldn't be prepared to ride a horse that big and powerful if there was any chance that bending his neck slightly wrongly could bring him down one day :(

So, we are now holding on for the neck xrays, which she has already warned me may be inconclusive.

It does help knowing that there are other people who will actually care whether I post this update. Thankyou.
 
I believe the correct term for what your horse has/is doing is becoming ataxic. I can tell you of my own experience. I owned a TB mare 16.3hh 16 years old, but really fit and well. I was having a lesson and she tripped very badly. I thought she might have tweaked something. She was OK so we continued with the lesson. Next day she was clipping the road with her hind toes. Following day she was dragginf her hind toes. I turned her out and walked her stagger behind and virtually sit down before she lurched back up and cantered off across the field. It was a BH weekend, so the vet came the next day. He saw her trot up and did the classic neurological test - while the horse is walking, he pulled on her tail to the side, she staggered to the side - a normal horse would not do this. He immediately sent her to Liphook. They did a number of tests - a spinal tap to check for an infection and also neck x-rays. They told me she had a narrowing on the 6th cervical vert. They said I could go away and give her massive amounts of steroids and anti-bios, but in their opinion she would not recover and there was no operation available. They wanted to do another test which meant knocking her out and injecting a die into the spinal cord to x-ray the dye. They were worried that she would not be able to coordinate standing up after the op and would fall and break a leg. I did not have the extra test because there was no point, they were completely convinced there was no fix for her. I chose to have her pts there.

You need to get your horse to a centre where a number of tests can be performed in safety. The risk with a horse like yours, is that they may fall on you - or fall in a situation of which you have no control - and break a leg or a hip. Do you really want to deal with that scenario ?

I hope you get some answers soon.
 
I am so sorry. I wish I could offer some advice or experience. My first thought at the beginning of the thread was wobblers However it was just that, a thought and not really drawn from first hand experience just yard observations. Best of luck to you and jazz. The only comfort I can offer is that I am sure you will and quite clearly are doing everything to get a prompt diagnosis. Your attitude seems very pro active and positive. Jazz is lucky to have you Once again best wishes to you both. X
 
Archie73 said:
I am so sorry. I wish I could offer some advice or experience. My first thought at the beginning of the thread was wobblers However it was just that, a thought and not really drawn from first hand experience just yard observations. Best of luck to you and jazz. The only comfort I can offer is that I am sure you will and quite clearly are doing everything to get a prompt diagnosis. Your attitude seems very pro active and positive. Jazz is lucky to have you Once again best wishes to you both. X
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as above. I do hope you find a diagnosis quickly and you are very much in my thoughts.
 
Sorry to hear this :(

Is there a reason for delaying neck x-rays?
I know you are concerned about travelling and that the portable machines aren't as powerful, but surely some portable xrays of the neck are better than nothing short term? I know My vet would have this done the same day if needed.
 
Thanks Big Red. The rapid deterioration that you experienced is not happening with mine. He has been dragging his toes for around six weeks now, and has done it on and off for four years, which we assumed was his very obvious spavins. Although we clearly had a crisis on Saturday, he is actually getting better right now, in terms of stability.

I know this disease is incurable and I also know that unless we can completely cure him that he will never be safe to ride. He is huge, nearly 17 hands and very, very powerful. I have never been able to control him in anything other than a double bridle. If a horse like that could fall any time it moves its neck into a bad position, I can't see how I could ever sit on him again.

I don't think that there will be any point in putting him in a lorry for the two hour drive to a hospital with a neuro specialist to confirm what we will already know unless he completely returns to normal, minus even the slightest toe-drag. Then I would be prepared to make the journey in order to precisely pinpoint the abnormality and work out how we can stop it impinging on his spinal cord in future. I think that possibility is currently as likely as my rocking horse strolling over here to watch what I am typing :(
 
ihatework said:
Sorry to hear this :(

Is there a reason for delaying neck x-rays?
I know you are concerned about travelling and that the portable machines aren't as powerful, but surely some portable xrays of the neck are better than nothing short term? I know My vet would have this done the same day if needed.
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I've asked the physio if she wants them brought forward, but she is happy that he is doing well and that there is no need, at the moment, to hassle the vet to reschedule his diary. I could get any of the younger vets to do them, but I'd rather wait for the senior partner who's done the neuro course recently, even if it does look like Jazz fooled him about where the problem really lay.
 
cptrayes said:
Thanks Big Red. The rapid deterioration that you experienced is not happening with mine. He has been dragging his toes for around six weeks now, and has done it on and off for four years, which we assumed was his very obvious spavins. Although we clearly had a crisis on Saturday, he is actually getting better right now, in terms of stability.

I know this disease is incurable and I also know that unless we can completely cure him that he will never be safe to ride. He is huge, nearly 17 hands and very, very powerful. I have never been able to control him in anything other than a double bridle. If a horse like that could fall any time it moves its neck into a bad position, I can't see how I could ever sit on him again.

I don't think that there will be any point in putting him in a lorry for the two hour drive to a hospital with a neuro specialist to confirm what we will already know unless he completely returns to normal, minus even the slightest toe-drag. Then I would be prepared to make the journey in order to precisely pinpoint the abnormality and work out how we can stop it impinging on his spinal cord in future. I think that possibility is currently as likely as my rocking horse strolling over here to watch what I am typing :(
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Well I think you are being incredibly pragmatic about this...

I agree with all you have posted here, although I do feel very sad for you and really hope that the outcome of all this is a good one.
I for one, would be elated to hear that my suspicions were incorrect in this case.
I will certainly look for your post when the xrays have been done.
Best wishes
xx
 
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