poiuytrewq
Well-Known Member
Please can someone put this in an easy to explain way that I can just say because I’m failing to make it understandable
Neurological pain in dogs
- Thread starter poiuytrewq
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Pearlsacarolsinger
Up in the clouds
Pain surely is pain and needs to be relieved asap, regardless of its source?
What are you struggling to describe? And who do you need to describe it to? A vet?
What are you struggling to describe? And who do you need to describe it to? A vet?
poiuytrewq
Well-Known Member
Totally yes and here’s the problem.
It’s not caused by an injury to a leg for example as I understand it’s a disruption of a pain signal from the brain.
No not to the vet, diagnosed by the vet. I’m trying to explain to my partner
poiuytrewq
Well-Known Member
When the vet explained to me it made sense. I went alone and am struggling to explain to him.
I'm Dun
Well-Known Member
Nerve pain is the worst pain to experience. I shattered my spine and it wasn't as bad as neuropathy can be at times. For me, and most other humans, it feels like you hand for eg, is huge, totally numb but also agonisingly painful. It feels like its been dipped in liquid nitrogen and its being burnt off, but with cold not heat. Some people experience heat though, and the nerve damage in my feet is less painful and feels hot.
There are times when its been so bad its all I can do to get through the next 5 seconds and the next 5 and so on. Almost no painkillers stop it, not even morphine. Diseases/conditions with associated nerve damage have the highest rate of suicide as you just cant cope with that level of pain permanently. I am very, very lucky, mine is cyclical so I get periods of very minor issues, then a huge flare up, then relative peace again. I also know the triggers and avoid them at all costs.
I don't know if that helps or not, I'm not sure it even makes sense to me!
There are times when its been so bad its all I can do to get through the next 5 seconds and the next 5 and so on. Almost no painkillers stop it, not even morphine. Diseases/conditions with associated nerve damage have the highest rate of suicide as you just cant cope with that level of pain permanently. I am very, very lucky, mine is cyclical so I get periods of very minor issues, then a huge flare up, then relative peace again. I also know the triggers and avoid them at all costs.
I don't know if that helps or not, I'm not sure it even makes sense to me!
poiuytrewq
Well-Known Member
that’s so awful. I’m sorry you’re able to explain that. So am I right, that your hand for example is actually ok, there’s nothing wrong with the joints or muscle but there’s no operation or easy fix yet it’s truly painful?
Pearlsacarolsinger
Up in the clouds
Nerve pain can be horrendous. Just think about shingles for instance, or the pain that amputees feel.
Tbh if the vet has prescribed a course of action/meds that is what your OH needs to know.
Tbh if the vet has prescribed a course of action/meds that is what your OH needs to know.
poiuytrewq
Well-Known Member
Yes he has and the dog is on them and it’s helping.
It’s just a difficult thing to explain
CorvusCorax
'It's only a laugh, no harm done'
Put some nails through the soles of his shoes, give him a dead arm, make him sit on a porcupine, put lamb rings on all his fingers, he should get the idea.
poiuytrewq
Well-Known Member
He’s not being a dick. He’s not disputing anything.
He just keeps saying it’s not in his head.
He just keeps saying it’s not in his head.
CorvusCorax
'It's only a laugh, no harm done'
For real though, tell him to sit on his hand or something for a while until it goes numb, then imagine that tingle as the blood flows back, but sharp and stabby and often?
LadyGascoyne
Well-Known Member
Would this work?
Nerves in the body act as a system, communicating with each other through networks.
Damaged nerve fibres may send the wrong messages to the wrong network, like crossed wires.
This can result in the wrong pain centres being activated which means the damage may be in one area, but the message that pain sends - “stop doing that, it’s damaging your body”’- might end up on crossed wires and surface somewhere different. This is unlike straightforward injuries which don’t compromise nerves, where the pain presents at the site of the wound.
Nerve pain is often described as burning, stabbing, sharp or like an electric shock and in some cases, tingling, numbness and pins and needles. Because nerve damage is all about nervous system communication and how broken the network is, the severity of the pain isn’t always commensurate with the degree of damage. For example, what seems less debilitating (like pins and needles) might not be any less serious than sharp pain because it can indicate that the network is so broken that it is failing to communicate. All nerve pain and nerve damage need to be treated carefully.
Nerves take a long time to heal, and management of nerve pain requires specific drugs, such as gabapentin, which work to affect the pain messages being sent.
Caveat, I’m neither a vet nor a clinician. Please treat as a layperson explanation.
Nerves in the body act as a system, communicating with each other through networks.
Damaged nerve fibres may send the wrong messages to the wrong network, like crossed wires.
This can result in the wrong pain centres being activated which means the damage may be in one area, but the message that pain sends - “stop doing that, it’s damaging your body”’- might end up on crossed wires and surface somewhere different. This is unlike straightforward injuries which don’t compromise nerves, where the pain presents at the site of the wound.
Nerve pain is often described as burning, stabbing, sharp or like an electric shock and in some cases, tingling, numbness and pins and needles. Because nerve damage is all about nervous system communication and how broken the network is, the severity of the pain isn’t always commensurate with the degree of damage. For example, what seems less debilitating (like pins and needles) might not be any less serious than sharp pain because it can indicate that the network is so broken that it is failing to communicate. All nerve pain and nerve damage need to be treated carefully.
Nerves take a long time to heal, and management of nerve pain requires specific drugs, such as gabapentin, which work to affect the pain messages being sent.
Caveat, I’m neither a vet nor a clinician. Please treat as a layperson explanation.
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ArklePig
Well-Known Member
So I've got inflammatory arthritis that causes peripheral nerve pain. I can simultaneously feel pain but I also feel nothing at all, it feels like an elephant sat on my hand but it also belongs to someone else if that makes sense, but the worst part, and probably the part that will make your oh understand is that you lose all concept of touch and pain, and a touch that wouldn't normally hurt, can hurt like hell. For example, some days I could lift weights, and then if it flared up, I might not be able to do so much as tie my hair up or hold my husbands hand. But when I'm experiencing nerve pain it makes the rest of my body extra sensitive too. I hope that helps, it's probably a jumbled mess but I'm only just getting my own head around it.
Hope your dog makes a speedy recovery.
Hope your dog makes a speedy recovery.
skinnydipper
Well-Known Member
Chronic pain, inflammatory pain from osteoarthritis for example, can lead to maladaptive pain/nociplastic pain (abnormal pain) resulting in pain to stimuli which would not normally be painful. The vet might prescribe a drug like Amantadine, Gabapentin or Amitriptyline.
Osteoarthritis is only one example of cause of chronic pain.
Pet owner not professional.
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I'm Dun
Well-Known Member
So am I right, that your hand for example is actually ok, there’s nothing wrong with the joints or muscle but there’s no operation or easy fix yet it’s truly painful?
Yes. No issues with hands or feet, they are "normal" but the nerves arent. If you think of it as everything you feel and sense is via your network of nerves, if they don't work properly, the pain is intense. There is no surgery or easy fix.
I am lucky in that I was authorised a very expensive drug that really does help, its why it tends to be cyclical in nature now. I also take max doses of tramadol which is the only other drug that seems to work for nerve pain, but its going to knock a big chunk of my life expectancy which is already lower than most. They both have side effects which arent nice. And of course, I'm technically a drug addict now as I've taken it for so long. If I ever tried to stop it would be a rehab job with professionals involved. Makes me cringe a bit, but its worth it.
When it was at its worse, I used to sit, or pace, with a pile of drugs next to me and negotiate with myself that if I really couldn't do it anymore, then I had enough drugs to end it quicky and fairly painlessly. I always got through. Knowing mine isn't constant and will ease is the only way I can do it.
I've not got any major pain this morning, but my right hand is quite numb and feels fat and I dropped the kettle twice before I managed to turn it on, some of that is ADHD related, but I don't have a good grip on things as I don't know how hard I'm holding it if that makes sense? My left hand is tingling and fizzing away. Its more annoying than painful thankfully, and I am very grateful that I don't have huge pain 24/7 like some people. Interestingly and we don't know why, nerve pain is significantly worse at night, all my worst episodes have been 3 to 5am. Its a pattern they see a lot. So the dog may be suffering then and you don't see it.
If any animal of mine had a nerve related issue they would be PTS immediately. I cant imagine how horrific nerve pain would be for them and there's no way to tell if they have the numb/tingly/horrific pain going on. Its likely they have a combination of all 3 to some degree.
I've had nerve conduction tests which give a read out of how well each nerve is functioning, it doesn't hurt, mild electric buzz down each nerve, which makes a print out showing each nerve and its response. I don't know if they do them for animals or not though.
I'm Dun
Well-Known Member
I'm pretty sure the newest thought is gabapentin doesn't work. It certainly didn't for anyone I know.
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
Isn’t it enough just to know that the dog is in potentially considerable pain? Does he accept that?
It can be a very frustrating condition to treat, as any human sufferers will attest. Definitely a quality of life issue if the pain can’t be managed.
skinnydipper
Well-Known Member
Pearlsacarolsinger
Up in the clouds
Nobody has suggested that it is in his head, if you mean the dog's head. The pain is real *because* the nerve is either damaged or inflamed. We can't see it because the nerves aren't visible to us but the dog can certainly feel it. Presumably you took the dog to the vet because you knew that something was wrong, even if you didn't know what.
poiuytrewq
Well-Known Member
I feel like I constantly have to defend myself on here.
My partner keeps saying to me that it’s not in the dogs head, he seems to think that by me coming home from the vets and saying it’s neurological that I’m saying the dog is imagining the pain. Mr P is trying to argue it’s not in the dogs head, but that the dog has an injury.
I’ve been trying to explain to him that as Lady G has explained above the problem isn’t his knee (for example) it’s probably his neck but he is feeling pain in his knee. He didn’t get it and I wasn’t explaining it properly.
skinnydipper
Well-Known Member
Referred pain. The problem is in one area of the body but the pain is felt somewhere else.
What is the name of the drug that is helping?
ETA. I understand if you don't wish to comment further, I'm just curious.
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Pearlsacarolsinger
Up in the clouds
Then that is because MrP hasn't understood the word neurological. If the vet had meant imagined pain he would have said psychological.
poiuytrewq
Well-Known Member
He’s a farmer, he could wipe the floor with me and most people with numbers and computer
run machinery and crops and so on. Words/language etc he really struggles with.
So where you or I might think that’s obvious it’s not to everyone. I suspect he’s dyslexic.
So I think I’ve told him and 10 minutes later he will come out with something like “he definitely limped then, that was obviously a front leg not a head ache”
I feel like I’m banging my own head against a wall.
CorvusCorax
'It's only a laugh, no harm done'
So he's mixed up neurological and psychological/psychosomatic.
It's definitely dead arm time
It's definitely dead arm time
poiuytrewq
Well-Known Member
It appears that way!
I just thought he was being thick, pig headed and argumentative.
However that theory would explain it, I mean they both would but I’ll give him the benefit of doubt and go with PAS suggestion
I just thought he was being thick, pig headed and argumentative.
However that theory would explain it, I mean they both would but I’ll give him the benefit of doubt and go with PAS suggestion
FinnishLapphund
There's no cow on the ice
I'm sure he could easily wipe the floor with me in many subjects. If you still need help with explaining it, and machinery, computers and such sort of stuff is his sort of thing, would it make sense to tell him to think about a fuse box?
After all, when a fuse pops, that doesn't mean that there's something wrong in the actual fuse box, without that something went wrong somewhere else in the house's electrical system. Hypothetically, lets say your dog is limping on the left back leg, but your veterinarian found irritated nerves up in the shoulder. Then the left back leg becomes the fuse box, and the nerves in the shoulder is the actual electrical problem which keeps making the fuse pop over in the left back leg/fuse box.
{{{{{{Vibes}}}}}} to your dog, hope the medication helps.
poiuytrewq
Well-Known Member
Sorry I missed this. He’s currently on Gabapentin
I’m not totally thrilled with this as my old dog had it and his back end went and I’m aware this can be a side effect. So I’m a bit scared that it may be the same. However so far there is a very definite improvement.
I see above that Gabapentin is now maybe not the best but I have a friend who takes it and it’s very helpful for her so
At this point it’s just a see how/I’d it helps and at this moment in time I’m feeling a bit better about the whole situation so maybe it will help him.,
I'm Dun
Well-Known Member
Has he ever had toothache but it hurt in a different tooth? Thats referred pain, and might help him understand.
poiuytrewq
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately he’s one of those mega irritating people who’s never seen a dentist and has never had tooth ache.
He understands the fact that the dogs hurting, he just doesn’t get the reasoning behind it.
On the plus side he is allowing me to take the lead role here instead of arguing that it’s all fine
Birker2020
Well-Known Member
It worked for me with sciatica very well, initially from a slipped disc but over the last few years from SI pain. I rarely get it now, whether that is because its settled down or whether it is because it has helped it I'm not sure, but I've been on it about 14 years now.
I weaned myself down from 900mg a day to 500mg as it is so addictive but I can't cut it further.