Neutering puppies (or not)

[Fellewell]

You raise points worthy of thought. I've no real answers but considering that health tests, no matter how rigorous seem to have little effect upon the wellbeing of what we produce, and the decline seems to continue, I suspect that diet is the only other path to consider and how we rear our pups.

Temperament Testing? Who would carry this out? With work dogs, mostly we don't really care what they look like, temperament is everything and self selecting. For the show bench, then the emphasis is on 'looks' and conformation, and despite the claims to the contrary, lip service is paid to temperament and often by those who don't really understand about temperament because their dogs are rarely tested under conditions of work.

Dogs, mostly, have been designed as our companions. When they're with us all but 24/7, then they tend to be the better adjusted dogs. When I lived alone, except for my sheep dogs, we were together at all times. They lived in the house with me, and I never had better work dogs. It sounds as though the guy who you mention has, as you say, a mate and it's probably a relationship which has grown because they're together.

Alec.

Well I'm a bit of a sucker for a good looking dog and I don't agree that a dog in a show ring isn't capable of working too. Even our beloved Foxhounds have beauty shows!

I know you don't like Crufts but all other things being equal, at the end of the day, the judge has to decide on a best in show based on which dog is still showing its socks off. He has to decide whether he's looking at stamina or nervous energy. Dogs don't always perform well in noise and heat so that shows something regards temperament and/or staying power but everything else is open to too many variables, such as a bitch who may be protecting her rear end against an ardent male in best in breed and not showing her true potential despite hip/elbow scores being well within normal parameters.

I've got two here; one show lines, one working lines. The show bred one is the one with the brains. When I took on my first shep in 1968 he was beautiful, from show lines and had been holding a very nice family hostage for six months. He didn't think anything through, much like the working line dog I have now, who was also a reject. One day I hope the breeders will get it right, but you can get lovely dogs from any kind of breeding IME. There will always be throwbacks.

 

[Alec Swan]

…….. . Even our beloved Foxhounds have beauty shows!

…….. .

The show ring isn't their raison d'être. Without function, there would be no form for the Foxhound.

It isn't Crufts specifically which I find depressing, but the entire breeding and breed standard system. Perhaps the problem started when breed standards were set, and then mistakenly in my view, the stud books were closed. Breed Standards? It seems to me that with the possible exception of any specific breed peculiarities, perhaps a roman nose or a squashed face, they're all but identical! I challenge anyone to read a Breed Standard, without knowing the specific breed and then tell me which breed of dog it refers to!

Considering the Irish Draft as a horse, the bulk of them (all?) carry out-cross blood and usually to TBs. This is an excellent example of a breed of animal which continues to evolve. Where do we see this in any breed of KC recognised and registered dog? We don't, is the answer. I stand to be corrected, but does anyone know of any breed of dog which is of Show focussed breeding where it's accepted that a similar breed has been used to create a degree of vitality?

Let's consider the Scottish Deerhound; always a breed of limited numbers, but surely a breed which is in decline and in every way imaginable. Were I to suggest to the breed society that a judicial entry of greyhound in to their breeding plans would almost certainly assist with an improvement, they'd all need smelling salts!

Consider dogs which are of supposedly working lines and those which are purely show bred, as the work-bred dogs evolve, so they become all but unrecognisable when stood against a dog of pure show breeding. The GSD, or so it seems to me, is one of the few breeds where there is a splinter section where the focus is on the dog's working ability but they also have their own self-contained shows. This is a hugely positive influence because in the show ring, conformational flaws will show up to the experienced eye, and when breeding from dogs which are conformationally as correct as there are, then the best of those pups will (or should) go on to compete.

The Breed Societies, supported by a bunch of be-tweeded old duffers from the KC are wholly responsible for the narrow minded approach which we currently enjoy, and we only have to look at those two appalling GSDs at Crufts a couple of years ago to wonder just who describes a judge as Highly Respected, beyond the Kennel Club. The KC would benefit were they to consider the mantra — Oh to have the gift, to see ourselves as others see us.

Finally! I too enjoy a good looking dog, but I suppose that it depends upon where and in what form we see beauty. I would consider skeletal and musculature structure and an animal's ability to make use of it's assets, before the often falsely presented offerings which are on display.

Alec.

 

[gunnergundog]

Considering the Irish Draft as a horse, the bulk of them (all?) carry out-cross blood and usually to TBs. This is an excellent example of a breed of animal which continues to evolve. Where do we see this in any breed of KC recognised and registered dog? We don't, is the answer. I stand to be corrected, but does anyone know of any breed of dog which is of Show focussed breeding where it's accepted that a similar breed has been used to create a degree of vitality?

The English pointer has been used in dalmations both here and in USA to aid the uric acid issue. Only one or two dogs granted and I'm not close enough to the breed to know the ins and outs but it was only six or seven years ago I believe.

 

[blackcob]

There's also been an outcross programme in Irish red and white setters, using Irish setters, since 2011/12.

 

[Moobli]

I am not against out-crossing in pedigree breeds to increase genetic diversity, as long as it is done sympathetically to keep the working drives required - in my breeds at least (GSD and Border Collie).

 

[ester]

Assuming judges don't take into account the health test status of a dog presented? I think health testing would work just fine if the kc limited the registration of affected dogs/their offspring

 

[Alec Swan]

The English pointer has been used in dalmations both here and in USA to aid the uric acid issue. Only one or two dogs granted and I'm not close enough to the breed to know the ins and outs but it was only six or seven years ago I believe.

There's also been an outcross programme in Irish red and white setters, using Irish setters, since 2011/12.

Do either of you know if the results were thought to be satisfactory?

Alec.

 

[Clodagh]

Assuming judges don't take into account the health test status of a dog presented? I think health testing would work just fine if the kc limited the registration of affected dogs/their offspring

If the KC only registered litters from health tested (and with good results) parents they would probably go bust. It would absolutely the right thing to do if they were genuinely concerned about healthy breeding and not just getting rich. Temperment testing would be a plus, but as hopefully the sort of people who only breed from decent parents would hopefully not breed from dodgy tempered ones? The trouble is with many breeds poor temperament is so often down to frustration and bad handling, rahther than actual neurosis. The working bred collie shut in a flat may well get herdy and nippy, for instance.

 

[ester]

The pointer Dalmatian has resolved the problem and the offspring are now registrable uk and USA as Dals so yes successful I should think despite much flapping by the Dalmatian bunch at the time.

 

[Clodagh]

And another thing...
Last week we went up to a game fair and yes there were lots of gundogs there. There were also shed loads of English bulldgos, pugs and French bulldogs. Some were OK but many were panting and distressed. It was not a hot day. The English bulldogs are a travesty, especially. While we have a population of people who want to own a dog that can neither walk nor breathe there is really no hope at all.

 

[Alec Swan]

The pointer Dalmatian has resolved the problem and the offspring are now registrable uk and USA as Dals so yes successful I should think despite much flapping by the Dalmatian bunch at the time.

That's excellent news. I wonder if any of the other breed societies would consider the idea. There would be those breeds, thinking Pekinese for instance and just how the deformities would be adjusted, and using which breeds, I'm not sure.

It would be fun to link breed to the suitable outcrosses, wouldn't it? The Bulldog which Clodagh mentions, for instance …. Staffy?

Another point of concern and considering the influence of what we'll call the back-yard-breeders and those who seem to produce the designer misfits, I wonder if the breeders of the truly show-bench influenced breeds are on the decline.

Considering the now healthy numbers of GSDs which are being used in sport and for their original purpose, I wonder if those which are bred purely for the show ring are declining in breeders, and so the volume of pups produced.

Any thoughts anyone?

Alec.

 

[Moobli]

That's excellent news. I wonder if any of the other breed societies would consider the idea. There would be those breeds, thinking Pekinese for instance and just how the deformities would be adjusted, and using which breeds, I'm not sure.

It would be fun to link breed to the suitable outcrosses, wouldn't it? The Bulldog which Clodagh mentions, for instance …. Staffy?

Another point of concern and considering the influence of what we'll call the back-yard-breeders and those who seem to produce the designer misfits, I wonder if the breeders of the truly show-bench influenced breeds are on the decline.

Considering the now healthy numbers of GSDs which are being used in sport and for their original purpose, I wonder if those which are bred purely for the show ring are declining in breeders, and so the volume of pups produced.

Any thoughts anyone?

Alec.

It is a really interesting concept and I do hope that more breeders open their eyes to the possibility in future. It would not mean a move away from pedigree breeds, but outcrossing for one or two generations and using new bloodlines could only help the genetic diversity in many breeds.

I speak to an American dog breeder who breeds healthy, longer lived Irish Wolfhounds. His aim is to produce dogs that look like pure wolfhounds, but with much more genetic diversity and you would be hard pressed to tell some of his dogs from purebred IWs. He outcrosses with Alaskan Malamutes and also uses some North American wolf cross blood. He breeds for healthy pets though and so I would imagine to outcross breeds designed for work needs a similar set of traits and drives in both parents.

There was a recent study which claimed that working line GSDs and their West German show line counterparts are genetically different animals, and so to cross working lines with show lines could help improve the structure and conformation of the WGSL but for greater genetic diversity an outcross to Malinois or Dutch Herders could prove worthwhile in the working strain of the GSD.

In Border Collies they could possibly be outcrossed to Kelpies, although in most cases their working styles are different so there would have to be a lot of thought and experimentation. You also have to bear in mind that would there be enough homes for the pups in the interim - which may not be such an issue with working or pet dogs, but clearly wouldn't be favoured by those wanting to show.

I am not against the breeding of crossbreeds per se - and the sudden popularity of crossbreeds such as the cockerpoo, cavapoo, labradoodle etc seem to be filling a gap in the market for a family friendly pet. Of course crossbreeding should be undertaken with as much care and diligence as pedigree breeding - so health tests done on both parents, temperament suitable for purpose etc and unfortunately that just doesn't seem to be the case at the moment in many crossbred litters.

Regarding a decline in the number of pups bred for the show ring, I haven't seen any evidence of that.

 

[ester]

Of course the dalmation would have been much more quickly sorted with a bit of GM

couple of links if you are interested Alec http://www.luadalmatians.com/index.html
http://www.dalmatianheritage.com/about/nash_research.htm

Alec I think it really rather depends whether you are trying to resolve a single genetic trait or a group of 'form' traits, and the issues when it is the form that is associated with 'disease' that is a key part of the breed standard.

 

[CorvusCorax]

To be honest I don't think the average pet purchaser and sometimes even some breeders can see what is staring them in the face.
I see so many nervy, environmentally unsound, reactive, fearful dogs now, who's owners think their dogs have lovely temperaments because they are 'good as gold at home' and love cuddles and sleep on the bed.
And then people breed from them.

 

[CorvusCorax]

A fairly comprehensive and very German explanation of temperament testing

https://youtu.be/7Z8mEQ_qqjs