neutering

[MotherOfChickens]

I am starting to think about the possibility of neutering my two-they are both coming up for 2 years old. There's no need to do it other than it might make dog care a little easier in the long run though as doggy daycare wont take them entire. My work situation has changed a little and so has OHs which means OH can take them a bit more but my days are longer and it might be nicer for them to be doing something else on those days OH cannot take them and I am busy.

So, pros and cons? I've only had dogs neutered at a younger age before.

considerations of them being together and their interactions-would it be better to get both done or neither? They get on well-its hard to tell who's top dog but I expect if it came to it it would be Quarrie.

Fitz is a slightly anxious dog and I worry it might make him more anxious-or would it not make any difference now?

Would it have any calming effect? Is it less likely to affect their coats now they are older?

 

[Sarah_K]

We had my old dog neutered at 4 (ish, as he was a rescue so that was a rough age). It didn't change his coat but it did alter his temperament. If there was a bitch in heat within about 5 miles nothing would stop him trying to get to her, after neutering that all stopped. He did become a little less attentive to people but that resolved it's self after a while. I think he did become calmer as he was a total live wire previously, the sort of dog you just couldn't tire out.

Current dog was done at 8 months and I wish I'd either waited or not had him done at all. He's become more anxious and less confident. It's taken a lot of work to get him a bit more confident.

Might be worth seeing it you're vet does the implants (so non permanent neutering). Would mean you have more of an idea how they would get on together and if it changes behaviour, particularly the anxiety.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

thank you-actually the implants are a great idea, I'd forgotten about them! I know people think the coat is not important and if there was another more pressing reason to neuter, it wouldnt be high up on the list of cons. But having lived with a dog whose coat was ruined by neutering -leading to years of no weatherproofing, matting at the drop of a hat etc then it is a consideration for me. I'd hate Quarrie to lose his fab coat and get all woolly-and golden breeders are telling me it will happen. And frankly, Fitz sheds enough twice a year, if he started doing it all year round it would be a 'mare lol-never known a dog shed so much.

 

[PapaverFollis]

Both mine are still entire, and have never shown any disruptive interest in the ladies so I've not considered neutering on that front. The only thing I might neuter for at this stage is if the couple of prostate/UTI issues we've had become recurrent. So far, touch wood, they've been one offs. And they are easy dogs to keep trim and fit because they are entire which holds a number of other health problems at bay theoretically at least.

But I wouldn't send them to day care or a dog walker either (I have control issues :lol: ) so don't have to worry about that. I might have to if they were neutered and I was working as they might need more exercise! They've always been fine with periods of minimal exercise when we've been busy as entire dogs but if they were neutered I imagine they'd have got fatter during those times and it would have taken time to shift.

I'm rambling, sorry. In short on balance I would leave entire if you aren't getting bitch-related behaviour issues or prostate/testical related health problems. Find a dog walker or day care that is set up to cope with entire dogs as they are likely the more considerate and competent ones anyway. Possibly.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

. Find a dog walker or day care that is set up to cope with entire dogs as they are likely the more considerate and competent ones anyway. Possibly.

its my understanding that licensed day cares cannot take entire dogs after the age of 6 months-I've been told this by several in the area.

I've not yet met a dog walker locally I would trust them with and only one daycare, which isnt the usual set up at all and someone who I know from classes. kennels at home are another option-just trying to consider them all really.

 

[PapaverFollis]

its my understanding that licensed day cares cannot take entire dogs after the age of 6 months-I've been told this by several in the area.

I did not know that. Seems odd to me that there's no leeway on that. Do they take entire females? (conversely I would have a bitch spayed at the earliest possible opportunity! And probably wouldn't have one again anyway!). Learned something new today.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

I did not know that. Seems odd to me that there's no leeway on that. Do they take entire females? (conversely I would have a bitch spayed at the earliest possible opportunity! And probably wouldn't have one again anyway!). Learned something new today.

afaik its only about entire males-I've only ever had two bitches and both were spayed before I got them.

 

[be positive]

its my understanding that licensed day cares cannot take entire dogs after the age of 6 months-I've been told this by several in the area.

I've not yet met a dog walker locally I would trust them with and only one daycare, which isnt the usual set up at all and someone who I know from classes. kennels at home are another option-just trying to consider them all really.

My local one takes entire males so it is not a licensing rule more of a limitation or restriction of facilities.


All dogs that attend LittleDogs must be vaccinated for at least 1 week before they attend their fist session and proof must be shown for our records.•All dogs must also be micro-chipped and these details must be completely up to date. •All dogs must be wearing an I.D collar at all times •Due to our specially designed care facility we accept neutered and un-neutered males and females. Owners must inform us when their bitch is coming into/is in season.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

oh, fair enough-licensing was the reason I was given-didnt really matter, none of them would get my custom anyway these all seemed to be pretty much free for alls once I got there.

 

[Clodagh]

They've always been fine with periods of minimal exercise when we've been busy as entire dogs but if they were neutered I imagine they'd have got fatter during those times and it would have taken time to shift.
.

I agree with nearly everything you have said, but all our dogs are neutered and lean. They don't get fat when they have less exercise, we just feed them less!

 

[PapaverFollis]

I agree with nearly everything you have said, but all our dogs are neutered and lean. They don't get fat when they have less exercise, we just feed them less!

Oh it's 100% possible to keep a neutered dog lean I agree. I just mean that with mine being unneutered I don't have to think about food intake (which is good, partly cos I train with food rewards and am not above a bit of bribery from time to time :lol. I meant my dogs would probably have got fatter if unneutered cos of what I would do rather than that all neutered dogs would automatically get fat! If that makes sense.

 

[Clodagh]

Oh it's 100% possible to keep a neutered dog lean I agree. I just mean that with mine being unneutered I don't have to think about food intake (which is good, partly cos I train with food rewards and am not above a bit of bribery from time to time :lol. I meant my dogs would probably have got fatter if unneutered cos of what I would do rather than that all neutered dogs would automatically get fat! If that makes sense.

Fair enough. Ours are bitches and I can't be doing with all the mess.

 

[Moobli]

I would be inclined to leave them entire tbh. I am not sure I would ever trust a day care enough to leave my dogs there and would prefer a kennel/run set up in my garden as an alternative, as long as it wasn't every day and for overly long periods of time.

 

[Moobli]

I agree with nearly everything you have said, but all our dogs are neutered and lean. They don't get fat when they have less exercise, we just feed them less!

The one reason my OH won't spay his current collie bitch is because his retired bitch got so fat after being spayed The vet he spoke to said that it does affect some bitches this way. The retired bitch had to be spayed as an emergency after she suffered from a pyometra and although went back to work when he had recovered, had lost her zing, speed and stamina and gradually put on more and more weight - despite eating very little.

 

[Clodagh]

The one reason my OH won't spay his current collie bitch is because his retired bitch got so fat after being spayed The vet he spoke to said that it does affect some bitches this way. The retired bitch had to be spayed as an emergency after she suffered from a pyometra and although went back to work when he had recovered, had lost her zing, speed and stamina and gradually put on more and more weight - despite eating very little.

I admit most spayed bitches we see are fat. Brandy, who is 10 now, has got quite heavy around the shoulders, but her waistline is OK.

 

[meleeka]

The one reason my OH won't spay his current collie bitch is because his retired bitch got so fat after being spayed The vet he spoke to said that it does affect some bitches this way. The retired bitch had to be spayed as an emergency after she suffered from a pyometra and although went back to work when he had recovered, had lost her zing, speed and stamina and gradually put on more and more weight - despite eating very little.

I’d always have a pet bitch speyed. A planned op is always going to be safer than an emergency one.

 

[skinnydipper]

I have had 5 spayed bitches (already spayed by rescue). None were ever fat but the problems I had were:

One had spay incontinence and spent her entire life on Incurin.

One was spayed immediately before I got her. I took her to the vets as things weren't right and found she had reacted to the internal sutures. She had to have a further op to have those removed and replaced with another suture material.

Another was spayed when she had an immature vulva (inverted or innie). If she had been allowed to have a season this could well have resolved. However, it remained inverted and I had to clean her daily and apply barrier cream because the urine would pool around the vulva and she would have had urine scalding if I had not done this. As it was, she suffered with urinary tract infections and vulval infections.

It is a fallacy that spayed bitches don't get pyometra - they can get stump pyometra.

My male dogs were neutered before they came to me except one which I chose to have neutered because I had listened to tales of dogs straying, marking, testicular cancer, fighting, etc. but I wished I hadn't had him done.

I have chosen to keep my current dog entire for health reasons. His behaviour related to being entire has never presented a problem and I check his testes regularly.

At one time I would not have thought twice about getting a dog spayed or neutered but the more I have learnt the more uneasy I am about messing with a dog's (male or female) endocrine system and the potential problems resulting from this. When people have their reproductive organs tampered with they then need to take some sort of hormone replacement, perhaps this should also apply to our pets.

 

[meleeka]

That’s interesting. I’ve had the opposite experiences. I’ve never known an unspeyed bitch that didn’t get pyometra. A couple have been elderly at the time so the op was obviously quite traumatic for them. From my general experience with friends and acquaices (and friends of friends), it’s very common.

 

[skinnydipper]

I've never had an unsprayed bitch so I really couldn't give an opinion on whether they all get pyometra. I was just sharing my experience with spayed bitches.

I only knew about the stump pyometra because my girl with the inverted vulva was investigated for that because of pus running from her vulva but it was yet another vaginal infection and not stump pyometra. To be fair I believe stump pyometra is rare but it obviously does exist.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

thanks all-I think if I were to do anything I would try them both on the implant initially but not at all convinced-they are going in for the KC vaccs on Friday (they have to go into kennels soon) so will ask vet then for more info. I would hope that most of you on here realise I wouldn't just chuck them in any old daycare or take the decision to neuter lightly (given my previous thread/s on the subject).
Just recently we've had a family bereavement and what with OH having to spend time away with a sick parent and me now working some weird days and travelling away for work a little more, its made me wonder exactly whats best for them and for us in the long term-given that both dogs have been left until mature at least. our house is quite remote and when there's no one about I feel I would worry a fair bit about leaving them in kennels here, unfortunately I have to work-I wish it werent the case!

 

[skinnydipper]

Please accept my condolences on your bereavement.

I think the implant would be a good compromise. It might be enough to see you through your current dilemma and gives you a bit of breathing space to decide on what you want to do long term.

My opinions are just based on my personal experiences and I would not wish to unduly influence anyone's decision. We each do what we feel is right for our pet and our situation.

You don't seem to be having an easy time and I hope things look up for you.

Wishing you well.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

thanks SD-just the realities of elderly parents that don't live close by. I blame early neutering for my last dog's many problems so not a decision I take lightly.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I blame early neutering for my last dog's many problems so not a decision I take lightly.

And to add to SD's list of problems resulting from neutering, I know of two bitches who developed hormone related alopecia post spaying. They had not just hairloss but also skin irritation, they both had to take hormone tablets for the rest of their lives and still had problems.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

One of the implants was shown to increase the possibility of testicular cancer and I can’t remember which one. Bar the logistics of day care not taking entire dogs, I’d leave them. The benefits/disadvantages are very balanced. This is a balanced study:
http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

 

[skinnydipper]

Thank you for posting the link, CT.

I've just quickly skimmed through but two things jumped out at me.

Page 6. Haemangiosarcoma. Layla, Saluki lurcher, died from haemangiosarcoma (she was the one who reacted to the sutures)

Page 8. Two fold increase in cruciate ligament rupture. Annie, with the inverted vulva, also ruptured her cruciate, she was not obese.

It makes chilling reading.

Off topic I know: Annie dispelled any myths about mixed breeds having less health problems as in addition to the vulva, infections and cruciate she also suffered from grand mal epilepsy and multiple food allergies.

She was bright as a button and you could teach her anything. She looked a lot like a Tibetan terrier. Miss her terribly.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

I think taking some of the quotes from the study in isolation is going to scare people. The cruciate issue is often associated with early neutering but I experienced this with an entire dog, he was just a very lively springer and maybe it could be hereditary too. That study I find is quite balanced. It does annoy me that some vets neuter as a matter of course and only mention reasons why, not why not to, iyswim.

 

[SusieT]

Agree with CT you need to read it with open eyes. Neutering large breed dogs before maturity I would not recommend but netuering in general I would - for prostate problems its beneficial and particulary when it would be easier for social reasons. I find it doesn't change their baseline temperment but takes out some of the naughty male behaviours, I haven't had an issue with the coat tbh.

 

[SusieT]

'It is a fallacy that spayed bitches don't get pyometra - they can get stump pyometra.' only if they have ovarian tissue left behind i.e. a bad spay. in general

 

[SusieT]

'The one reason my OH won't spay his current collie bitch is because his retired bitch got so fat after being spayed
image: http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/smilies/frown-new.png

The vet he spoke to said that it does affect some bitches this way. The retired bitch had to be spayed as an emergency after she suffered from a pyometra and although went back to work when he had recovered, had lost her zing, speed and stamina and gradually put on more and more weight - despite eating very little.
'

might be worth saying to him there's a possibility the life threatening infection actually affected her as much as the spay.

 

[skinnydipper]

I think taking some of the quotes from the study in isolation is going to scare people. The cruciate issue is often associated with early neutering but I experienced this with an entire dog, he was just a very lively springer and maybe it could be hereditary too. That study I find is quite balanced. It does annoy me that some vets neuter as a matter of course and only mention reasons why, not why not to, iyswim.

Sorry, CT. I was not being random or scaremongering, I just highlighted the problems associated with my dogs. I appreciate that entire dogs do rupture their cruciate but the fact this risk doubled I felt was important, to me at least.

Layla was spayed just before I got her. I was not aware of the significantly increased risk of haemangiosarcoma.

I quote from the article you linked to:

"Hemangiosarcoma is a common cancer in dogs. It is a major cause of death in some breeds, such as
Salukis, French Bulldogs, Irish Water Spaniels, Flat Coated Retrievers, Golden Retrievers, Boxers, Afghan
Hounds, English Setters, Scottish Terrier, Boston Terriers, Bulldogs, and German Shepherd Dogs24.

In breeds where hemangiosarcoma is an important cause of death, the increased risk associated with
spay/neuter is likely one that should factor into decisions on whether or when to sterilize a dog."

I totally agree that owners should be fully informed of the risks.

Layla's tumour ruptured and she haemorrhaged when I was alone in the countryside with her and my other dogs. She died. It is not an experience I would want to repeat and it upsets me to think about it much less discuss it.

It is the anniversary of her death on Sunday, she died on Good Friday 2 years ago. She was roughly 12 years old, she had lived with me for 11 years. She had been abandoned by Travellers when she was probably less than a year.