fburton
Well-Known Member
I didn't mean to sound patronising, sorry. My comment was made in relation to inventing new phrases for old ideas.
Can't argue with that, Aengus.
Neutral reinforcement thread
- Thread starter fburton
- Start date
Tinypony
Well-Known Member
I don't think it's fair to have a go at BH, she's trying very hard to walk the line between talking about some things she feels quite passionately about and being accused of advertising. As for insulting her use of the english language, well I think most of us struggle sometimes to convey exactly what we mean.
MerrySherryRider
Well-Known Member
Mrs BH - Why not leave your posts to your husband. Not a good idea to try and convey concepts like these without a good grasp of the english language.
Harsh Optimistic Pessimist but nothing that I have been thinking for months now
Maybe BH and Mr BH would be better employing a proper marketing company who can explain things better than they can.....of course that would cost money
This totally unfair. Mr BH has written several successful books, made video's and regularly writes for the equestrain press, so I don't think he has any problem in getting his ideas across.
When professionals are rubbished on forums by posters,( who may or may not have any skill them selves,) I doubt that many well known names, would throw themselves to the lions by posting on here. Why should they ?
I am frequently put off replying to a thread because without producing an almost watertight argument that allows for those who have no concept of commonsense and can only think in concrete terms, it simply isn't worth the hassle.
For the record, the concept of neutral reinforcement seems a good way of explaining the middle ground between the range of responses between positive and negative. Its an approach that I've used in child rearing, working in psychiatry with distressed/disturbed patients, working with horses and other animals.
It isn't latent learning or turning away. I would understand it to be where the horse behaves in a way that would usually result in a reaction of correction but the handler does not respond to the behaviour, and therefore breaking away from the task, but he/she simply fails to respond to the stimuli and continues quietly and calmly with the task uninterrupted. The skill is in reading the situation and continuing at a level where the horse does not have heightened stress but finds reasurrance from 'normality' and is able to focus on accepting the direction of the handler who shows no expectation of the task being something to be fearful of.
Spudlet
Well-Known Member
I don't think there's any need for people to be rude about the langauge skills of others, on what is a very interesting and good-natured discussion
From my POV I would still regard neutral reinforcement as falling under the category of negative reinforcement, but at a very subtle level of operation, using the most subtle cues and maintaining low stress levels. I would certainly be interested to see this in action.
From my POV I would still regard neutral reinforcement as falling under the category of negative reinforcement, but at a very subtle level of operation, using the most subtle cues and maintaining low stress levels. I would certainly be interested to see this in action.
Tinypony
Well-Known Member
All this demonstrates to me is that it isn't helpful to introduce these new terms when the words used are obviously so open to wide interpretation. Look back at the varied definitions already being thrown about. Horserider, I have re-read what you and BH typed, and I think you are both describing logical, but different same situations. CalliUsing the term neutral reinforcement obviously leads people to relate to it in terms of the accepted scientific definitions of positive and negative reinforcement.
The reason that the idea of turning away a horse was introduced was this - BH mentioned the handler being in a situation where they were being totally neutral when she was trying to explain the concept of neutral reinforcement. Some pointed out that, at least for some horses, just being with the horse meant that you weren't totally neutral. You would be influencing them, even if you were totally unaware of that fact.
I don't think we need to spring into a discussion with our ideas fully formed and being able to explain them perfectly clearly right away. Discussion helps us to clarify, expand, and maybe amend.
MerrySherryRider
Well-Known Member
Tinypony that is true, but surely so many terms are open to interpretation but we still use them. Ask half a dozen top riders how to perform a half halt and you'll get half a dozen different answers.
Spudlet
Well-Known Member
That is VERY true (it's no wonder we all get confused, ask three instructors the same question and you'll get five answers and a blazing row
). However, as I understand it and think of it, in training terms 'positive', 'negative', 'reinforcement' and 'punishment' are not fixed points, but are a spectrum - IMO all training will fall somewhere on this scale, whether it's on the strong end or on the more subtle middle ground.
AengusOg
Well-Known Member
tess1
Well-Known Member
lol, so Mr BH has such an exceptional way of working with horses that we currently have no way of describing it ....
excuse me while I RAOFLMAO
This is either a serious show of ignorance by BH, or yet another marketing ploy.
Behavioural science can do a perfectly good job of explaining what he does - as demonstrated on this thread - and you don't need a degree in it to understand it (or most people don't, anyway).
And having seen this guy working 'in the flesh' I can tell you that this argument is purely academic! The words 'pinch of salt' spring to mind.
excuse me while I RAOFLMAO
This is either a serious show of ignorance by BH, or yet another marketing ploy.
Behavioural science can do a perfectly good job of explaining what he does - as demonstrated on this thread - and you don't need a degree in it to understand it (or most people don't, anyway).
And having seen this guy working 'in the flesh' I can tell you that this argument is purely academic! The words 'pinch of salt' spring to mind.
teasle
Well-Known Member
Several months ago I read an article by Micheal Pearce in a horse magazine about neutral reinforcement, and id not understand it. Janet George answered my thread and explained it very well . Call her up to explain it again.
amandap
Well-Known Member
I'm afraid I think you are being exceptionally rude and arrogant. From a positive reinforcement/clicker training advocate I find this attitude somewhat hypocritical and certainly very unkind.
tess1
Well-Known Member
Well, rest assured I'll be practising no positive reinforcement on BH or BH's OH.
I speak from personal experience - it was thanks to Mr BH's 'training' of my horse that I got into +R and clicker training in the first place, as once he'd got his hands on her, nothing else worked. Believe me, I tried everything - and before that I was as skeptical of CT as the next person.
You can call me as hypocritical as you want (not that, frankly, I care one jot what you think of me) but it isn't as hypocritical as the rubbish I've seen BH writing on here about her OH's wonderous way with horses that words can't even describe.
I speak from personal experience - it was thanks to Mr BH's 'training' of my horse that I got into +R and clicker training in the first place, as once he'd got his hands on her, nothing else worked. Believe me, I tried everything - and before that I was as skeptical of CT as the next person.
You can call me as hypocritical as you want (not that, frankly, I care one jot what you think of me) but it isn't as hypocritical as the rubbish I've seen BH writing on here about her OH's wonderous way with horses that words can't even describe.
Ibblebibble
Well-Known Member
interesting thread, what most strikes me is our 'need' to label everything, over analyze everything and confuse things with science! all it sounds like to me is good horsemanship!!
all it sounds like to me is good horsemanship!!Pearlsasinger
Up in the clouds
In that case it can hardly be neutral, if there is a mixture of +experiences and
-experiences.
I have to agree that a marketing degree would have been more useful to BH than microbiology.
It does seem strange that BH has no opinion on anything other the training of horses, using a particular method.
Jane1706
Member
I'm afraid I think you are being exceptionally rude and arrogant. From a positive reinforcement/clicker training advocate I find this attitude somewhat hypocritical and certainly very unkind.
Amandaap, Actually I do not think that Tess is being "exceptionally rude and arrogant" she has had a negative experience with BH's OH (this is now getting confusing!) and can therefore speak from one on one experience and not what she has gleaned from BH's OH's Books, Magazine Articles and the HHO Marketing plan....sorry informative posts
HorseRider I think a lot of HHO members are totally sick and tired of BH using the forum as a marketing platform for her OH. As Pearlsasinger has said "It does seem strange that BH has no opinion on anything other than the training of horses, using a particular method" She has had her wrists slapped a number of times now but seems to fail to learn....maybe she needs to be led into the "Neutral Reinforcement Zone" until it sinks in
babymare
Well-Known Member
mmm sorry havent read all posts as got to page 3 and ummmmm lost and baffled but im a simple person who just tries to think horse, see the world through thier eyes and accept we all( including our horses ) make mistakes, repeat and reinforce through praise - simples lol ( proof in my mare that simple works)
( proof in my mare that simple works)tess1
Well-Known Member
yet more marketing betterhalf ... really ...
I thought you might have learned your lesson by now, but no, I think as Jane1706 has already said you need to be led into the neutral reinforcement zone yourself for a while, until some learning sinks in.
I don't use positive reinforcement on behaviour that I don't approve of - I either ignore it or punish it, whatever seems most appropriate at the time. I definitely don't need lessons in public relations from you, thanks all the same.
Patch never did lateral work for fun or anything else ... he was a coloured cob sent to you for spooking and shooting off on hacks after a frightening experience with dogs. He spooked and shot forward with me (in the school) on the day I came to collect him.
Yes, Mr BH certainly caused a paradigm shift in Kazali ... and not one I'd care to see repeated.
I thought you might have learned your lesson by now, but no, I think as Jane1706 has already said you need to be led into the neutral reinforcement zone yourself for a while, until some learning sinks in.
I don't use positive reinforcement on behaviour that I don't approve of - I either ignore it or punish it, whatever seems most appropriate at the time. I definitely don't need lessons in public relations from you, thanks all the same.
Patch never did lateral work for fun or anything else ... he was a coloured cob sent to you for spooking and shooting off on hacks after a frightening experience with dogs. He spooked and shot forward with me (in the school) on the day I came to collect him.
Yes, Mr BH certainly caused a paradigm shift in Kazali ... and not one I'd care to see repeated.
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Jane1706
Member
Tess, So sorry you had a bad experience,lets hope that for once your post is allowed to stay on the board rather than the normal say anything negative and the post gets removed and then people can post "oh x I have never read anything negative about him"
BH please just stop now, whenever you attempt to explain your OH's methods you get people going "what??????" If indeed you do not need to market your OH's services as all you need to do is answer the phone, then why not just stop confusing people on here and answer the flipping thing, no need for a marketing campaign on here at all is there simples! If indeed your English is as bad as you state then for the sake of your husbands professional reputation then just step away from the keyboard and let loose the ghost writer
For everyone who is going to write "ohh stop being nasty to BH she is allowed an opinion" yes she is, but she only appears to have one opinion and one topic of conversation her OH, his methods and how wonderful he is. mmmmm if you are really interested then BH's OH has a Facebook Fan page, no idea if his methods are any clearer on there but it is all very ra ra ra you are the best ra ra ra
MerrySherryRider
Well-Known Member
Amandaap, Actually I do not think that Tess is being "exceptionally rude and arrogant" she has had a negative experience with BH's OH (this is now getting confusing!) and can therefore speak from one on one experience and not what she has gleaned from BH's OH's Books, Magazine Articles and the HHO Marketing plan....sorry informative posts
HorseRider I think a lot of HHO members are totally sick and tired of BH using the forum as a marketing platform for her OH. As Pearlsasinger has said "It does seem strange that BH has no opinion on anything other than the training of horses, using a particular method" She has had her wrists slapped a number of times now but seems to fail to learn....maybe she needs to be led into the "Neutral Reinforcement Zone" until it sinks in
So because Tess 1 had a negative experience with BH's OH, does that mean that she needs to run a personal vendetta against him ? Just seems a bit venomous really. You also seem to have an axe to grind. Your sweeping statements ' I think a lot of HHO members are are totally sick and tired etc etc' Are they ? A fairly recent thread about this trainer expressed views contrary to yours.
Has BH had her wrists slapped a number of times ? Who by ?
BTW, I speak from personal experience having sent a horse for consolidation training to BH and her OH with fantastic results. I would trust any horse of mine in their care.
If professionals are to be silenced on this forum, then HHO would lose some of its most experienced and helpful posters. They do not keep their identity secret, and because of their membership on here, they have benefited from business from forum members, so why just single out BH for attack ?
tess1
Well-Known Member
There are rules about advertising on the forum that clearly other professionals abide by. BH's post has been deleted from this thread today because it is blatent advertising of her husband's business. That is all BH seems to post about, as opposed to the other professionals who frequent the forum who clearly comment and advise on all manner of subjects and do not shamelessly promote themselves at every opportunity. If business is so good, why does she need to promote his work here, and try to influence potential clients?
I am glad that you had a positive outcome for your horse. I was not so fortunate, and I know that there are others in the same position as me. On a discussion forum I believe discussion is encouraged, and differing viewpoints are aired. That is the difference between trying to tout for business on an open forum, and paying for a targeted media campaign where one can put whatever spin one wants on what they are trying to promote.
I am glad that you had a positive outcome for your horse. I was not so fortunate, and I know that there are others in the same position as me. On a discussion forum I believe discussion is encouraged, and differing viewpoints are aired. That is the difference between trying to tout for business on an open forum, and paying for a targeted media campaign where one can put whatever spin one wants on what they are trying to promote.
Jane1706
Member
I am glad you had a positive experience with your horse, Tess did not and should be able to say openly "Actually it was not good for me" without her posts being removed and it is hardly a vendetta. This is what happens on an open forum you get discussion and recommendations.
Look at the Dealer threads, some people will have a great experience with them some will not but new customers can then make up their minds using all the info out there positive and negative.
And yes I stand by my comment that a lot of people are sick and tired of this couple marketing themselves on this forum, on this thread alone you have a member admitting that they have reported another thread because BH was blatantly marketing on it!
As for BH getting her wrists slapped a number of times and who by, well Admin of this forum basically why do you think BH has now started referring to her OH and not using his name? Because she has been told to cease and desist she admits it herself on page one of this thread "When my OH (can’t mention his name because of advertising Law)"
So sorry horserider I agree totally with the following comment
"There are rules about advertising on the forum that clearly other professionals abide by. BH's post has been deleted from this thread today because it is blatent advertising of her husband's business. That is all BH seems to post about, as opposed to the other professionals who frequent the forum who clearly comment and advise on all manner of subjects and do not shamelessly promote themselves at every opportunity. If business is so good, why does she need to promote his work here, and try to influence potential clients?"
As for me yes I do have an axe to grind, when BH first joined the forum she was happily joining every post with people asking for advice with "I recommend X he is fantastic" it then came out that she was X's wife and had a bit of a vested interest and only because someone else who knew who she was posted the fact. A lot of people were pretty outraged and told her and admin so. I was one of the people suckered in to looking into the wonderful recommend X and yes it left a very bad taste in my mouth when I found out that my recommendation was merely his wife touting for business.
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Echo Bravo
Well-Known Member
I have read the posts about Neutral reinforcement and have a serious headache now What happened to the simply things in life, as I was taught when things went wrong, walk away for awhile (before you lose your temper) go back a stage and start again, is that postive/negative reinforcement?????
What happened to the simply things in life, as I was taught when things went wrong, walk away for awhile (before you lose your temper) go back a stage and start again, is that postive/negative reinforcement?????
Chavhorse
Well-Known Member
I have read the posts about Neutral reinforcement and have a serious headache now
Echo no one seems to know as BH and her OH do not seem able to explain it without the populous at large going "uhh"
If a team of vets were unsure if Mr BH was "systematically desensitising or flooding" what hope do us mere mortals have
not sure if it says more about him or them frankly.