New approval system for British-bred sport horses

Anastasia

Anastasia

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See the following interesting article on HHO: H&H Article

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A committee has been set up to manage the start-up of the group, with Lynne Crowther of the British Warmblood Society as interim chairman.

The committee also includes Celia Clarke of the Sport Pony Studbook Society, Mark Shaw of the Coloured Ponies and Horses Society, John Shenfield of the British Hanoverian Society and Mary Wilson of the Irish Draft Horse Society.


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While I think this is an excellent idea.....why is it that it is the same people time and again on all these types of committee's to do with breeding in the UK? Is it just that people are not willing to commit??? Just always seems to be the same people with no mix of new blood.....or maybe I am just picking it up wrong..
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I have to agree with you there............no offence to any of those people its the same old same old.... and not being funny but I think something like this needs to be 'fresh' and 'new'....., and surely as a sport horse approval system shouldn't sport horses be better represented on the commitee?! Other than the interim chairman, I see its ponies, coloureds, Hannovarian and Irish horses represented.....
 
Not a bl**dy Cleveland Bay person in sight
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Until the Society get out there and participate in this sort of thing we might as stop breeding them - off to rant on CB talk
 
Aren't there getting to be too many societies around all duplicating each other to a point? If they start classes I expect they will want you all to affiliate to them before you can so pushing up costs even more?!
 
I was also a bit confused reading the article, am i wrong in thinking another fee for the breeder/owner? Dont get me wrong it is a good idea but we would still for example pay our chossen society fees then this aswell as? I have Hann, Old membership and fees as well as BD, as we talked about on another thread it isnt cheap to reg a foal with the bigger stud books.
 
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I have to agree with you there............no offence to any of those people its the same old same old.... and not being funny but I think something like this needs to be 'fresh' and 'new'....., and surely as a sport horse approval system shouldn't sport horses be better represented on the commitee?! Other than the interim chairman, I see its ponies, coloureds, Hannovarian and Irish horses represented.....

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Stud book affiliation is no indicator of actual judging and evaluation experience -- and due to an appauling reluctance by UK studbooks to use home-grown talent in grading positions -- absolutely no indicator of inetrnational grading experience and wider knowledge either .

Organisational skills in getting such a thing off the ground are different from grading and judging experience anyway and SHBGB has not yet been able to take part becuase it has not yet agreed to upload voluntary breeding (pedigree, performanc e and grading) data to NED, the first requirement of studbook membership. Once they ahve done this (hoefully soon) they should be more involved.

As gfar as developing skills in judging and admin in others the BEF in particular is very eager to encourage younger judges as those involved are only too aware that time and age is creeping up on everyone and the younger generation -- even thoise yunger by about 10 years or less -- seem to be very thin on the ground.

So if you feel you have the skills that woudl benefit the Lead Body why not let the BEF know? I am sure you would be wolcomed with open arms.

BTW, the template is not a separate grading or assessment system (God forbod!) it is just a marketing odentifier that can be used to promote and market correctly bred, correctly brought up and talented British-bred horses to a wider market.

The stallion gradng assessment is not a grading but a grid of levels required by each studbook for ist different types of stallion grading so that mare owners can clearly see how much -- or how little -- a stallion has to do to be graded into a particualr section of a stud book.

A web site will be launched soon and the British Breeder magazine revived and published for added value for studbok and indivuidual members. Individual members will also have free access to NED once it goes publicly on line.

Hope that helps clarify the situation.
 
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Not a bl**dy Cleveland Bay person in sight
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Until the Society get out there and participate in this sort of thing we might as stop breeding them - off to rant on CB talk

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Fear not! Nigel Cowgill rang me yesterday about another matter and said that he is planning to raise the issue of CBHS membership of the Lead Body -- especially the part-bred section -- at the Council meeting in a fortnight.

As he raised the subject not me I think he is very keen to get something happening. He certainly sounded it.
 
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Not a bl**dy Cleveland Bay person in sight
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Until the Society get out there and participate in this sort of thing we might as stop breeding them - off to rant on CB talk

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Fear not! Nigel Cowgill rang me yesterday about another matter and said that he is planning to raise the issue of CBHS membership of the Lead Body -- especially the part-bred section -- at the Council meeting in a fortnight.

As he raised the subject not me I think he is very keen to get something happening. He certainly sounded it.

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Thanks for that - I had a real go around with a breeder recently - horrified that my mare is out there competing instead of being used for breeding - she will be used for breeding eventually - but if we are not out there showing the world what the breed can do why the hell are we breeding them?
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I am sure you would be wolcomed with open arms.

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Mmmm i'll reserve judgement on that...

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Well, it is so much easier to sit on the sidelines and criticise rather than put your expertise to the test in public and risk your reputation as a result isn't it?.

Far safer not to offer constructive help to the industy (and your competitors of course) than take a much broader view and do something positive to promote and improve the whole of performance and sport horse breeding in this country. But you wouldn;t want us to think that of you would you ? <ROFL>

So we all look forward to a report of the response to your contact with Jan offering to become involved :-)
 
While I think this is an excellent idea.....why is it that it is the same people time and again on all these types of committee's to do with breeding in the UK? Is it just that people are not willing to commit???

That is part of the problem & also the feeling sometimes of it being a closed shop. I dont think it is the case though I do think some breed societies are more helpful then others. I dont see much encouragement though. I think there should be a more structured way of training people for the future. This could be in the form of stewards who start by taking notes for the judges. Courses explaining conformation etc, because these things can be learnt in this way. If these things are occuring then forgive me, because I am totally unaware of them having never seen anything written about it. For instance when judging a sports horse class (where time is possible), you have a trainee judge who will put in order what they think & why. The more experienced judge will then make any adjustments they think to be correct, but explaine why. There may well be time constraints all round, but if people really want to improve moving forward they will find the time to both teach & learn.
 
Ciss......thanks for your input on this. I agree that people should put their money where their mouth is.........however, how easy to actually do this is sometimes the challenge. If Jan is willing to do conference calls to the North East of Scotland then I will put my name in the pot.....
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I know that a lot of your International societies have a specialised programme for judge training, like the KWPN, Hanoverians etc. This I think is a super idea, it is also amazing how much you can learn from these people. I had the fortune of being with the KWPN graders at two stallion gradings and they were a fountain of knowledge...what they also did was include you in their discussions as they wanted you to know what they were looking at.
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Likewise when I was with the graders this year from the NRPS and Sweden, I learned a lot, but also wondered about some aspects of their marking which I never challenged.....perhaps I should have, to understand more of what they liked or disliked. (they were not quite as open as the KWPN judges....IMHO).

The Breeder Orientation Weeks that the Hanoverians hold do the same, you go for 14 days and are asked to assess mares etc, so that you are learning more of the fundamentals of the breed.

But sometimes with the BEF/British Breeding you do feel that there is a more "closed shop" front to it than "welcoming with open arms"....
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"But sometimes with the BEF/British Breeding you do feel that there is a more "closed shop" front to it than "welcoming with open arms"....

this is a fair comment. There is most probably more open discussions and comments on this forum (the input is from all over the country from small and larger breeders) then at these focus meetings with 30 people in a room with many only interested in looking after themselves rather than the good of British Breeding. The whole equestriam industry seems institutionalised and although the wheels are turning it still seems to be coming back to the same place.

A lot of hope also seems to be resting on NED and I really hope it will works, but from the outset it was not done correctly and I still have serious doubts that it can be comercially viable and kept afloat by breeders paying for the service whether it is a pay per veiw or a membership.

With regards to judging, people have got to be strong and fair in their opionions and if they upset people in their decisions, tough. It is not about keeping people happy but producing the correct horses. I have seen stallion gradings at Zangersheide where even their own horses were not approved by the panel (they were then most probably sold here
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), but the decision was made end of.
 
The only time I have wanted to put a suggestion forward to the commitee for consideration of one of the studbooks concerned, I was made to feel an inch tall and given the spanish inquistion... and was made to feel I was wasting my time and a decision was made without it even going forward to the commitee.

Two of the other studbooks concerned I won't even deal with, everytime I have 'tried' to use them and have enquired with queries about membership, change of ownership and foal registration, they have been down right rude and I have done my talking with my money by taking it elsewhere and using a different studbook.

My cynicism is nothing personal to you Ciss, you are actually the one person of the people I have met on that commitee that I have respect for but my cynicism isn't without cause, and I would love to take a more active role in the breeding industry but have seen too many nice people slog their guts out and get pushed aside, and some people shouldn't take a job if they can't deal with people's queries!!

I think alot could be learnt from the SHB(GB) on how to deal with the jo public, they always have a friendly manner and its never too much trouble when you have a query/problem. They are very professional in their approach.
 
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"But sometimes with the BEF/British Breeding you do feel that there is a more "closed shop" front to it than "welcoming with open arms"....

this is a fair comment. There is most probably more open discussions and comments on this forum (the input is from all over the country from small and larger breeders) then at these focus meetings with 30 people in a room with many only interested in looking after themselves rather than the good of British Breeding.

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I couldn't agree more..
 
I would agree that a lot of discussions happen on here and none of us are backwards at coming forwards with our thinking. Maybe the BEF/BB need to have open meetings in all areas of the UK to hear the voice of the people who are breeding the horses in the UK....from all studbooks.

I was not speaking about upsetting people with regards to judging (there will always be people unhappy with the results), but from my own perspective of wanting to learn. If judges think a stallion is no good then that does not bother me (as 100% of the time I would agree with them..
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) What I was meaning with what I was saying above is that I want to learn what these judges see in a horse. They have had years of training and had to start at the bottom and work their way up. They see thousands of horses and are very knowledgable. What I am saying is that I want to tap into their knowledge and the only way of doing this is when you have the opportunity to stand beside them, where you are both looking at the same horse and then have a discussion about the weaknesses and strengths.

Stallions fail gradings worldwide..........some of these stallions find themselves in other studbooks (you see this a lot with the KWPN stallions who do not get through to the 3rd round, or get put out in the 3rd round). Other stallions fail and then come back again and are reaccepted once they are in the sport........like Painted Black etc. Others go through the NRPS first in Holland and then find themselves accepted by the KWPN when they have achieved results in sport, like Rubels, Florencio and Cantos, to name only a few.

I would love the opportunity to sit with the juding panel at one of the big stallion gradings and hear their discussions on the stallions in front of them.
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Also at mare and foal gradings/shows.

We also have to remember that all Studbooks are different in what they accept or dont accept, and the same goes with all the 70 day testing and how stallion owners can select their venue depending on whether they are easier or harder to pass...
 
Sorry about the peculair style of this post but my mark up system seems to be playing up :-(

Horsegroupie wrote:
My cynicism is nothing personal to you Ciss, you are actually the one person of the people I have met on that commitee that I have respect for but my cynicism isn't without cause, and I would love to take a more active role in the breeding industry but have seen too many nice people slog their guts out and get pushed aside, and some people shouldn't take a job if they can't deal with people's queries!!

From Ciss:
That's a relief. I did begin to wonder what on earth I had done as I was always Ousbek's no 1 fan and you know what scores you got for Betty Bug as well :-)

I think on a personal basis almost all the people on the Working Party are pretty approachable -- although one is a bit of a firebrand character and has to be treated with care but is very knowlegable. I think the problem is the fact that the item in H&H identifed them as reps of their stud books when all were actually selected for the WP on their personal organisational and people skills rather than for political studbook reasons.

Horsegroupie wrote:
I think alot could be learnt from the SHB(GB) on how to deal with the jo public, they always have a friendly manner and its never too much trouble when you have a query/problem. They are very professional in their approach.

From Ciss:
I have to agree that the studbooks -- as distinct from the people -- are a whole different issue and this is why (for the most part except for the ponies which are very non-political :-)) I try to work outside the studbook structure, even though over time I have been the consultant that has written the grading rules for most of them (apart from the AES and daughter studbooks of course!).

SHBGB has a hardworking ful-time staff who pride themselves on their customer relations and I do agree with you that some other studbooks that have paid employees could do well to follow their methods. Smaller ones run by volunteers are a little more problematical as it is often quite hard to get anyone to do the constant phone-answering job that Registrations etc involves with the correct combination of consistent good grace and informed knowledge -- Sarah at SPSS is a delightful exception to this rule thank goodness . Perhas the Lead Body could set up some sort of training in customer care for frontline voluntary studbook officers. Now there's a thought!
 
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I would agree that a lot of discussions happen on here and none of us are backwards at coming forwards with our thinking. Maybe the BEF/BB need to have open meetings in all areas of the UK to hear the voice of the people who are breeding the horses in the UK....from all studbooks.

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What I forgot to say (and what the H&H report did not mention either :-() is that one of the forst things that the Lead Body plans to do is to run a series of regional road shows for breeders, hopefully to start addressing many of the thinsg this thread has already raised.

The Lead Body is looking for people to help run them and to suggest/contribute to the contents so here again is a way that you can all get involved. Again. get in touch with Jan Rogers at the BEF if this interests you.

I agree about the need to 'sit next to Nellie ' (or in this case usually Ludwig, Johann or Jan :-)) n order to learn exactly why they reach the decsions they do -- and how much you feel they reflect the current needs of the British breeding industry when they do it here, but you also need a sound theoretical base of knowledge of confomation, bloodlines etc. I suppose it woudl be possible to develop a face to face taught course or even perhaps better a distance learning course about many of these things which people could do independently from anything the studbooks put on but funding is probably a problem at the moment. OTOH, again perhaps a suggestion to the Lead Body WP about what sort of support this would have and sho could provide useful input to it might be one way to progress.

There is one minor problem about having events in Scotland, which is that -- as a result of dveolution -- Scotland is currently producing its own Strategy for The Horse (have any of you seen any drafts of this yet?) and input from south of the border is not welcomed :-(. This means that the activites of the Lead Body are only allowed to encompass England and Wales ATM, but perhaps a way could be found around that if there was enough incentive.
 
Hugo Cooreman the foal inspector at Zangersheide was telling me 10 years ago thet he had been doing it for 30 years and it is this experience that he can look at a horse and give an opinion. You get 3 people like this together they are going to shorten the odds in choosing the right stallions that are going to sire good horses.

I remember many years ago in the H&H they got knowledgeable people to give opinions on horses, some good and some not so good, and that was quite interesting to see what they said about them and how close they were to what the horse could actually do.
 
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Have just discovered that there is a whole section of the BEF web site devoted to the Lead Body process:

http://www.bef.co.uk/British_Breeding/Lead_Body_Process.html

The proper (non HH :-)) report of the November meeting will be up there in a couple of days.

This is not the Lead Body web site proper of course, just one recording its development to date.

HTH

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BUT Ciss...........who needs the Lead Body when you have us wonderful people on HHO...............just post on here and I am sure we will all jump on with comments and recommendations..........
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We could be your independant breeders group.....
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I think the road show sounds a super idea and as I said on another forum I am really looking forward to the British Breeding publication returning.
I think time is a big factor in people from some of the smaller stud books volunteering. I work full time, have my own stud to manage and am on the TBF committee as registrar so finding time to be on another committee is tough. I also feel that there are so many people sitting back ready to criticise that you need elephant hide skin to put yourself forward.
 
I also feel that there are so many people sitting back ready to criticise that you need elephant hide skin to put yourself forward.

I understand, but from a members point of view the society does not at the moment seem to uterlise what it has at hand ie the website. As an ex member of the AHS they would issue a year book, which was full of information & photo's. It was very useful for finding out info on stallions past & present with great photo's. I have been a member for 2yrs & the photo's on the website have not changed in all that time. They were also a bit slow at times in updating info/results, I am not saying that is the case now. If you are a member I dont see why certain info can not be accessed, ie breeding history etc. I dont always want to keep emailing someone & having to wait for them to get back to me. I have found though that I have had a quicker response from Germany/Denmark then the UK in the past. So I suppose I am one of those that criticise from the back. I would just like to know what my £25 goes towards other then being permitted to show in the PB class. I did get the last news letter which stated that the society are thinking about a year book, I wait in anticipation.
 
Totally off topic magic but lets look at it another way, what can we purchase for &pound:25 these days?

Sadly UK societies/studbooks aren't breeding 15000 foals per year with double the number of members..... it's just so difficult to reach a happy medium
 
Totally off topic magic but lets look at it another way, what can we purchase for &pound:25 these days?

Well for me nothing, but it could buy a couple of bags of feed, or a bale of haylage. At the moment my subscription gives me entry into the Sept show. Now because no one has a crystal ball, I did not even get that & lost the entry fee. Not anyones flt, except the barsket that kicked my yearling! It would be helpful if the website could offer more info. This year I have to ask myself if I need to be a member of the ID, SHB & TBF. This is what it comes down to if you want to show you offspring/horses. If I want to show at Herts county then I have to be with the SHB. If I want to put the PBT against like then it is the TBF. Last year what with one thing and another I got very little time in the end & that could be the case next year as well. Most people are looking for value for money whether it be £25, £50 or £100. After all for most of us the cost of living has gone way over any inflation pay rises!
 
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BUT Ciss...........who needs the Lead Body when you have us wonderful people on HHO...............just post on here and I am sure we will all jump on with comments and recommendations..........
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We could be your independant breeders group.....
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Would that it were that simple :-). It's not just an indpependent breeders' groip, it has to be an official body including studbooks and breeders as required by the Strategy of The Horse but an input from ALL of you would be greatly appreciated as I keep saying.

I did sggest that they have a forum running on the web site but the BEF is a bit phobic about it after the somewhat ill-informed my-horse-got-beaten-and-it-never-has-been-before-so-the-judges-are-obviously-no-good type hammering the Futurity got on a couple of them (not this one as the H&H breeding sections didn't exist then) when it was first launched :-(. The BHS rollkur punch up also worried them (pity it got so out of hand as personally I think Rollkur has nothing to recommend it but some of its opponents do their case no good by attacking the people in the middle who merely reported on it) but actually I think, if we are to be serious, it is the problem of annonimity on forums that is the real one for them, as they treat any non-attributable input with the same suspicion as do most public bodies.

So stand up and be counted and recognised in your views (whatever way you choose :-)) and you will be listened too :-), especially if you are relatively young, fit and able to help/learn.

BTW, one of the things I am pushing for is a British team to compete in the Internatinal Young Breeders Championship in 2009 (2008 is too soon becuase of the amount of training in handling and juding that needs to be done) sio if you know of anyone under 21 who would like to take part -- and anyone of over 21 who could support them in their training -- then do PM me and we can hopefuly progress it from there. Details of the IYBC are to be found on the WBFSH web page.
 
Magic at least you get a Newsletter
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!!! I am a member of the Supporters of British Breeding (have been for a few years now), the money is taken from my account as a D/D each year and I get nothing at all!! Not even by email!! So go figure!! I makes me wonder if they actually know who all their members are.

Opie - I see your point, but as Magic says, whether it be £25 to whatever amount members still want to see something for their money. As Magic quite rightly points out, horse enthusiasts in the UK have to be members of just about everything to be able to compete in any discipline, whether it be showing to jumping. And because of the cost of living (increased interest rates, increase in fuel etc)people have to be more aware of how far their money will stretch, and decide on what is best value for money.

Ciss - The Young Breeders Championship sounds like a great idea, but most people at present that I know are over this age and just starting out in breeding, as they would not have afforded to fund their breeding at a young age.......
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Most the European Studbooks have been supporting their young breeders for several years, with annual competitions and championships.....this has been severely lacking in the UK...
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Why does the British Breeding part of the BEF website not include news from UK Studbooks etc, and successes of breeders to bring them more into the fore. It would not be difficult to email all the breed assocations on a monthly basis for their news and bring it all under one website?

One just has to look at the British Dressage website....they are very quick to add onto their news pages those stallions that are doing well abroad for their British owners, but what about those British stallions that have done well in the UK??
 
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and you will be listened too :-), especially if you are relatively young, fit and able to help/learn.

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Oh dear that counts HG out then....

No one wants a bashed up invalid that is waiting for her third operation this year
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**sniff**

Perhaps you will have me when I am all mended and back on form
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can someone tell the NHS to stop pooping around then please because I have been in twice for the last operation i need,only to have it cancelled at the last minute
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