New BE Championship rules esp GR

[meardsall_millie]

So therefore a rider competing at Intermediate IS NOT a Grass Roots rider. Even if you include the CCI levels, Intermediate is still level 6 of 10, again not a low level.

Absolutely agree with you Saratoga but I'm afraid I'm still on the fence with this issue - as many others have stated, simply doing the dressage at Intermediate then making a complete horlicks of the SJ and/or XC (up to 10 years ago) doesn't necessarily make you a Riding God either!

I'm glad I'm not in BE's shoes on this one, they're never going to please everyone.

I would be interested to know if this rule change has been put to ERA, or other consultation though.

 

[SpottedCat]

SC- thanks, sadly even if Hopalong gets back to ODE fitness there's no way I could do a 3DE with her or travel her that distance. Entry fee is very reasonable, although I'd say stabling costs sound quite steep- all the stabling I've used has been £20/£25 per night, so I guess (as smurf says) it's all the added extras that add up and price it out of interest for folk? Maybe one day in the future I'll trundle down on a road trip?!

I can understand it's too far - was more to show it isn't actually as extortionate as a 1*

The stabling is daylight robbery - luckily I know a few people nearby and will probably stable offsite as I can't justify spending all that £££ on stabling when it is almost as expensive as the entry fee!

 

[Saratoga]

Absolutely agree with you Saratoga but I'm afraid I'm still on the fence with this issue - as many others have stated, simply doing the dressage at Intermediate then making a complete horlicks of the SJ and/or XC (up to 10 years ago) doesn't necessarily make you a Riding God either!

I'm glad I'm not in BE's shoes on this one, they're never going to please everyone.

I would be interested to know if this rule change has been put to ERA, or other consultation though.

I agree actually I don't think that Int level riders are grass roots anymore, BUT I think it's a little harsh becoming ineligible for just starting a single Int event. I think it should be changed to gaining points at Intermediate, or doing say 4 or 5...

 

[Chloe_GHE]

Well no, not really Chloe. BYEH is a glorified showing class for 4 and 5 yo horses - it's not eventing.

maybe they might in light of these changes add a xc phase to BYEH?.... could be a solution?....

 

[SpottedCat]

maybe they might in light of these changes add a xc phase to BYEH?.... could be a solution?....

Not really though - you have the 4yo classes already, which seem to invariably result in most of the combinations getting XC penalties - and it doesn't solve the problem that if you're like Gamebird and started an int once, for the next 10 years, no matter what you are riding, you can't do GR. Now I know this doesn't happen to be true for GB, but what if you were a brave-but-stupid rider who got the minimum QR at Novice, scraping by with the max SJ penalties, so entered an int, got there, did the dressage, then walked the SJ and XC, realised you were about to kill yourself and possibly your horse too, so sensibly w/d. You're not an int rider by any stretch of the imagination, but you've just put yourself out of GR for the next 10 years. Or were Q for int, but got CR in the SJ because it was a step too far for your horse? The problem is, when you step up a level, that's when you know your horse can do that level, and if you're wrong.....you're screwed.

 

[Santa_Claus]

But there are 4 & 5 yo champs other than BYEH 4th classes run over intro and 5th over prenovice with young horse champs! Also entries are normally low so a double clear with decent dressage will be good enough to qualify for the finals normally!

 

[Chloe_GHE]

Not really though - you have the 4yo classes already, which seem to invariably result in most of the combinations getting XC penalties - and it doesn't solve the problem that if you're like Gamebird and started an int once, for the next 10 years, no matter what you are riding, you can't do GR. Now I know this doesn't happen to be true for GB, but what if you were a brave-but-stupid rider who got the minimum QR at Novice, scraping by with the max SJ penalties, so entered an int, got there, did the dressage, then walked the SJ and XC, realised you were about to kill yourself and possibly your horse too, so sensibly w/d. You're not an int rider by any stretch of the imagination, but you've just put yourself out of GR for the next 10 years. Or were Q for int, but got CR in the SJ because it was a step too far for your horse? The problem is, when you step up a level, that's when you know your horse can do that level, and if you're wrong.....you're screwed.

but I wouldn't class Novice as GR

The step between PN and N is huge imho so anyone who has consistently ridden and completed at Novice to me really isn't a GR rider

I wouldn't say Gamebird was GR at all

Having ridden at novice and beyond imho classes people way beyond GR, you may have done those higher levels many years ago but you did them, you got there, you have that knowledge that experience under your belt, and that's imho the difference between GR and the 'more proficient amateur'

I think maybe the 'middle ground' rider at nov int forgets the long way they have come to get there and quite how big a leap that is when you are at the other end of the scale finding even intro hard, getting to novice seems like getting to badminton.

I would say I'm probably the best example of your typical am GR rider, never competed above PN, never achieved any higher than 11th, produced own horses (as you can tell by results ) that's what I would class as truly GR

I'm afraid anyone above that is in a bit of a limbo land, which deffo does need addressing

 

[dieseldog]

Well as intro is a bit of a dressage competition maybe they should ban anyone who has ridden at elementary BD too?

BYEH is not a solution, lots of people have green 6yo+ what are they supposed to do?

I think the 10 year rule is harsh, this years RF are going to be firecely competitive as it is now the last chance for lots of people, and not passing the qualification down the line is nuts. Its quite easy to do, just get the competitors to tick a box on the entry form to say whether they are eligible or not.

 

[TableDancer]

I actually think only_me's point is an important one, and it had occurred to me earlier but as the mother of one of the little darlings I didn't want to stick my head above the parapet

There are a load of kids on ponies at the GR who always do really well. MiniTD did it last year, this year two of her friends did it, one of whom is currently out in Poland with the Pony Team (not on the same pony, but still shows what level they are riding at...) Both were placed. These kids are really really competent jockeys and have a tremendous thrill doing the GR Champs but, once again, are they really who it is aimed at? They haven't competed Intermediate because on ponies you don't, but if they are going round Pony Trials on ANY pony, not necessarily the one they have at Badminton, they are mini preofessionals in my book. Perhaps any kid who has competed at Pony Trials in the last 5 years should also be ruled out? As someone has said, they have the PC Champs plus many other targets to aim for...

 

[Gamebird]

and it doesn't solve the problem that if you're like Gamebird and started an int once, for the next 10 years, no matter what you are riding, you can't do GR. Now I know this doesn't happen to be true for GB, but what if you were a brave-but-stupid rider who got the minimum QR at Novice, scraping by with the max SJ penalties, so entered an int, got there, did the dressage, then walked the SJ and XC, realised you were about to kill yourself and possibly your horse too, so sensibly w/d. You're not an int rider by any stretch of the imagination, but you've just put yourself out of GR for the next 10 years. Or were Q for int, but got CR in the SJ because it was a step too far for your horse? The problem is, when you step up a level, that's when you know your horse can do that level, and if you're wrong.....you're screwed.

I totally agree (well I would, wouldn't I? ). I had a horse who'd done two seasons perfectly competently at Novice, INs, a clear XC at CIC*. What do you logically do next? An intermediate of course. I'll hold my hands up to picking a totally unsuitable event (though the BE schedule said they'd altered the course to make it suitable for first-timers and I stupidly believed them) but there was no way that I could know that I didn't have an intermediate horse (and perhaps wasn't an intermediate jockey!) without having a go. Fwiw I think I'd make a much better job of it now, but I'd also know not to have tried it on that horse in the first place!

I think I mentioned on the other thread about the problem with people using the terms 'grassroots' and 'amateur' interchangeably. The true grassroots rider is catered for - the amateur not always.

I'll shout it again in case anyone missed it last time - how about a Novice Amateur Champs run alongside the 6yo champs at the CCI* at Osberton? Sounds like the perfect solution!

 

[Saratoga]

I'll shout it again in case anyone missed it last time - how about a Novice Amateur Champs run alongside the 6yo champs at the CCI* at Osberton? Sounds like the perfect solution!

AGREE!! And leave the GR champs to the Grass Roots riders.

 

[SpottedCat]

I actually think only_me's point is an important one, and it had occurred to me earlier but as the mother of one of the little darlings I didn't want to stick my head above the parapet

There are a load of kids on ponies at the GR who always do really well. MiniTD did it last year, this year two of her friends did it, one of whom is currently out in Poland with the Pony Team (not on the same pony, but still shows what level they are riding at...) Both were placed. These kids are really really competent jockeys and have a tremendous thrill doing the GR Champs but, once again, are they really who it is aimed at? They haven't competed Intermediate because on ponies you don't, but if they are going round Pony Trials on ANY pony, not necessarily the one they have at Badminton, they are mini preofessionals in my book. Perhaps any kid who has competed at Pony Trials in the last 5 years should also be ruled out? As someone has said, they have the PC Champs plus many other targets to aim for...

I would agree with this - but thought I'd be shot down in flames so held my tongue! I think if you're going to exclude anyone who has ridden at intermediate for 10 years, then yes, you should also be excluding those who ride at PT, they are a damn sight better jockeys than most of the rest of us, and also, they usually have parents who know how to produce a horse - which is also more backup and support than most of the rest of GR riders get too...

I also agree with whoever it was who was saying that there is a problem with using GR and amateur interchangeably - but I honestly don't think that because you've come 21st consistently at Novice you are no longer a GR level rider, and probably ditto intermediate. I also think that even GBs idea of some kind of amateur champs at Osberton misses the point rather - if you are at 90/100 you get to ride at Badminton, if you're a pro or an exceptionally good amateur you go to the British Champs - where is the 'occasion' for those people stuck inbetween?! I would rather see some kind of amateur's class added to the British Champs, to give that sense of occasion. Or as was suggested, an 'open' section at Badminton - though there I am guessing space is the issue. Having the good fortune to have one good horse does not mean you'll be competitive on your next horse, and if you can only afford one (or two), then what if your next horse doesn't have the scope for Novice? You can't aim it at anything.

It is a tough call though. I don't see myself riding at Novice again any time soon (if ever), and I can't aim for anything, so I'm playing with going and doing a PN3DE, but doing loads of unaff over BE tracks too, because at least they run champs I am eligible for! BE are losing my money because of this, if nothing else that should make them think!

 

[DarkHorseB]

The focus surely should be on actual results at a level rather than COMPETED at (and not even completed!!)

I may be wrong but I don't think GB has actually ever won any points at Novice and above so to me how can you not call that a true grassroots rider? I mean a grassroots championship is still a championship and should be the best at a level but to define GR as someone who was never placed in top 10 is missing the point too. What would you do run a championship for the bottom 10%

It is a shame someone like GB gets penalised for having the guts to have a go at a higher level when a horse and rider who has won at PN level 5 times plus is still eligible imho. I do think the move to change the rules again on this are somewhat missing the point.
A ten year limit also seems rather harsh.

 

[Gamebird]

I also agree with whoever it was who was saying that there is a problem with using GR and amateur interchangeably -

Me again!

I also think that even GBs idea of some kind of amateur champs at Osberton misses the point rather - if you are at 90/100 you get to ride at Badminton, if you're a pro or an exceptionally good amateur you go to the British Champs - where is the 'occasion' for those people stuck inbetween?! I would rather see some kind of amateur's class added to the British Champs, to give that sense of occasion.

OK, so have the Nov Am Champs at Burghley then. I'm not fussy and they've got loads of room!

 

[SpottedCat]

Sorry GB - wasn't rubbishing your suggestion, think it is a good one, just thinking that no-one was that fussed about the GR champs when they were at Aston le Walls - now everyone wants to go because it's at Badminton. So if BE were to do an amateur series, it needs to have a champs at somewhere with a real sense of occasion.

 

[Gamebird]

Sorry GB - wasn't rubbishing your suggestion, think it is a good one, just thinking that no-one was that fussed about the GR champs when they were at Aston le Walls - now everyone wants to go because it's at Badminton. So if BE were to do an amateur series, it needs to have a champs at somewhere with a real sense of occasion.

s'OK, I think I prefer Burghley now that I've thought of it! Got to pop out and ride two non-GR eligible (under the current jockey anyway) horses but will come back later and follow the rest of the discussion with interest.

 

[meardsall_millie]

I also think that even GBs idea of some kind of amateur champs at Osberton misses the point rather - if you are at 90/100 you get to ride at Badminton, if you're a pro or an exceptionally good amateur you go to the British Champs - where is the 'occasion' for those people stuck inbetween?! I would rather see some kind of amateur's class added to the British Champs, to give that sense of occasion.

I'm not sure it does miss the point to be honest. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think there is a Novice track at the British Champs as the Novice Champ is run at Intermediate?

At least if it was at Osberton, then there would be a course prepared - thereby avoiding the inevitable 'more expense it's not viable' claim?

Oh yes, and Osberton is just up the road from me so would be way cheaper in diesel.......

 

[SpottedCat]

There is a novice track at Gatcombe though - and it's not like the Badminton people run over the same 'space' or even same time as the big guys.....

See post above re GR when it was at Aston le Walls.....

 

[meardsall_millie]

There is a novice track at Gatcombe though - and it's not like the Badminton people run over the same 'space' or even same time as the big guys.....

See post above re GR when it was at Aston le Walls.....

Yes take your point but the powers that BE are likely to come back with 'we can't afford yet another Champs' so at least Osberton could be a compromise - they do run the 4, 5 & 6yo finals after all - so perhaps the sense of occasion could be built?

I know there's a Novice track at Gatcombe but it's not used for the Festival so it's another course that would have to be prepared.

 

[MyChestnutMare]

I am completely gutted by this new rule! In 2007 I completed one intermediate with another horse who I no longer compete. I have a young horse that I have brought on myself from a 2 year old and have made it my ambition to compete at the grassroots champs with her, she is now 6yrs old and this year we have started to compete at BE90, I have been placed 3rd so thought I had qualified for a RF, now apparently not!

 

[Jane_Lou]

I am completely gutted by this new rule! In 2007 I completed one intermediate with another horse who I no longer compete. I have a young horse that I have brought on myself from a 2 year old and have made it my ambition to compete at the grassroots champs with her, she is now 6yrs old and this year we have started to compete at BE90, I have been placed 3rd so thought I had qualified for a RF, now apparently not!

If it was before 30th June this year then yes you have qualified for this years RF, the new rules only applied after 1st July, so for 2012 RF's for 2013 GR Champs.

 

[Rosiefan]

Slightly off topic now although related to the original post, I wonder what prompted BE to change the rules. I understand why they've changed them at this time of year but did someone complain and if so why?

I really do think someone should do a post on the ERA forum about the lack of a medium level championship which isn't open to professionals riding horses for other people at a high level (the best I can do at ruling out the big boys/girls). I've just been looking to see whether anyone had started a thread and noticed that FW has replied to Vineyridge's post about the FEI co-efficient with a request for more info so I'm sure the issues would be addressed (I hope he/she has seen it and responded by the way).

 

[hollibobs]

I completly see what your saying about 'amateur' and 'grassroots' and having read through all the replies I agree with this, never really thought about it in that way before.

I think your suggestion is a great idea, I would love a championship to aim for (chance of getting there slim but something to aim at)

 

[LEC]

What about Hartpury? or even Aldon? Neither have championship associations so would be good for the event and could be run over the 1* course? Hartpury has a wonderful atmosphere and all it would require would be an extra section? Hartpury also would work time frame wise for qualification.
Alternatively it gets run over the CIC1* course at Gatcombe and CIC2* course for an Int championship. Would be cheaper for costs as well!

Chloe has got me thinking - there are some very serious riders out there doing PN and doing it very well. I am not sure why they get to be called GR yet someone like me who moved up to novice very badly somehow does not get to be called GR?

I agree about the whole PT thing - That rule is in place for JAS and I am not sure why it has been carried over. I think any rider who is contesting PT should find themselves ineligible for GR Champs. They have a heap of things they can aim a younger/less experienced horse or pony at with the U18 BE100 Champs, PC Champs and Weston Park.

 

[kerilli]

Wow, what a debate I've started

Just to be clear, I wasn't arguing against the rule change just noting it and what it meant for me personally. Do I think I should be eligible for the GR Champs? Probably not. It's just that because I was about to become eligible, and I know other people as experienced/competent as me (or more so) who have competed there, I was eyeing it up...

However, I think some of the opinions and perspectives raised by others on this thread are far more interesting than mine. If Gamebird never actually completed an Intermediate, surely she shouldn't be ruled out?? Perhaps a fairer/better wording would be either "completed" or "won points at"? Also the jump from Advanced/5 years to Intermediate/10 years ruling you out is quite extreme, perhaps make it Advanced/10 years OR Intermediate/5 years - after all, there's a fair old difference between riding at Intermediate and Advanced

It does seem to me this would have been a prime case for a bit of good old consultation before bringing in the new rules: do we know whether ERA UK was consulted, Kerry, and if so, whether Francis canvassed opinions?

Not that I've heard, will check though. Some great points raised on this post, I'm taking notes and will bring them to Francis' attention.

Slightly off topic now although related to the original post, I wonder what prompted BE to change the rules. I understand why they've changed them at this time of year but did someone complain and if so why?

I really do think someone should do a post on the ERA forum about the lack of a medium level championship which isn't open to professionals riding horses for other people at a high level (the best I can do at ruling out the big boys/girls). I've just been looking to see whether anyone had started a thread and noticed that FW has replied to Vineyridge's post about the FEI co-efficient with a request for more info so I'm sure the issues would be addressed (I hope he/she has seen it and responded by the way).

Please do!
Seriously, please people, post these ideas on the ERA forum. We need debate over there too, to get attention. FW did respond to vineyridge and I need to give her a push to get her to send me all the spreadsheets to forward to F, thanks for the reminder.
Keep the ideas coming!
Novice level amateur champs - okay, how would you define "amateur"?
Never ridden (or completed? or placed?) at level x?
or
Not ridden (or completed? or placed?) at level x for the last y years?
Tricky...
or, two tiers? One for those who have never competed (completed?) above Novice/1*, one for those who have but have never, say, started at a 4*? or a 3*? or an Advanced?

 

[Gamebird]

Not that I've heard, will check though. Some great points raised on this post, I'm taking notes and will bring them to Francis' attention.



Please do!
Seriously, please people, post these ideas on the ERA forum. We need debate over there too, to get attention. FW did respond to vineyridge and I need to give her a push to get her to send me all the spreadsheets to forward to F, thanks for the reminder.
Keep the ideas coming!
Novice level amateur champs - okay, how would you define "amateur"?
Never ridden (or completed? or placed?) at level x?
or
Not ridden (or completed? or placed?) at level x for the last y years?
Tricky...
or, two tiers? One for those who have never competed (completed?) above Novice/1*, one for those who have but have never, say, started at a 4*? or a 3*? or an Advanced?

No, you're getting amateur and GR confused again!

For Amateur you have to go back to the dictionary definition and open it only to people who do not make their living (or the major proportion of it) from riding horses. It will upset some people, but every definition will (by definition! ). The BSJA (just about) manage to run amateur qualifiers on those lines so why can BE?

If the amateur has competed at 4* then so long as they are truly an amateur by whichever definition you set they should be eligible for Nov Am Champs. No cutoffs on level reached or achievement at X level, just on whether or not it is how they make their living, full stop.

People will now jump up and complain that it is difficult to define and whine that they'd be cut out but if you want to have a 'Novice Amateur Championships' that's how it should be.

Out of interest can anyone think of any true (by definition) amateurs that have completed Badminton/Burghley in the last couple of years? Tony Warr?

 

[meardsall_millie]

Out of interest can anyone think of any true (by definition) amateurs that have completed Badminton/Burghley in the last couple of years? Tony Warr?

James Robinson - also a vet?

The girl who rode a nice grey (although I believe she turned pro after a couple of 4* completions - her name escapes me....)

 

[only_me]

Out of interest can anyone think of any true (by definition) amateurs that have completed Badminton/Burghley in the last couple of years? Tony Warr?

The dentist Hinrich Romeike on his lovely grey who won the olympics - but how would you define him? Considering he is works as a full time dentist and presumably makes his living through teeth rather than horses- but is hardly an amateur if he can win the olympics?

 

[Gamebird]

James Robinson - also a vet?

The girl who rode a nice grey (although I believe she turned pro after a couple of 4* completions - her name escapes me....)

As far as I know James Robinson went down to only a couple of half days a week vetting so that he could concentrate on his eventing career. However I'll give you Herr Romeike!

Don't forget that it's not all that long since the Olympics was only open to amateurs in any sport. Wasn't there a big hoohah when David Broome et al were considered to be professionals in the 60s (70s?) and were debarred?

 

[kirstyhen]

Balls, does this make me a Professional rider?? Proof if ever there was that being a 'Professional Rider' does not always equal any great threat in competition!

Honestly, I don't see how having fallen off at Int once 9 years ago, makes you any more of a threat than someone who spends £1000s on a horses and training and competes year in, year out at BE90. At least when I get beaten by them I can console myself with, ah well, they're an Int Rider you see