New Foal, but has a problem. What to do. VIDEO

I'm not a breeder though I've seen much benter foals than this one come right and I am interested, not trying to cause a fight.

For those who are saying she should not be turned out and saying that they speak from experience, do you have experience of turning one like this out and having it go wrong, or have they been kept in because we humans (and some vets fearing being sued) like to err on the side of caution, and because they came right it has been assumed that they came right because they were kept in?

If I had a bent foal I would want it to have as much movement as it felt it was happy to take while its body was as light as possible to avoid overdue strain. In a few days she will weigh 50% more than the weight she was born and that won't help her at all.

So - any genuine comparisons showing the old-wives-tale-approach which other posters have had such success with compared with keeping in?
 
It's because veterinary science has shown that restricting the movement will not put undue strain on weekend tendons and ligaments. You risk making the problem much worse with too much exercise in the first couple of weeks, whilst they are straightening and strengthening.

You do turn out - but with restriction.

Nothing to do with old wives tales. Just good old science and common sense.
 
amymay said:
But you've bred enough foals to know how crooked they can be initially - and how well they usually straighten up.

Sorry, he sounds like a knob.
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He doesn't sound like a knob to me :confused:. He just sounds like a disappointed breeder. The more foals you have that come out straight, the bigger the disappointment when one comes out overly curled. Yes they do normally straighten up, and as seasoned breeders we all know this, however it doesn't change the initial upset of it. People who have only had one foal or are novice breeders might not be so disappointed because they're so caught up in the "miracle" of it all. Experienced breeders have the hope that these foals straighten but it's natural for them to assess foals immediately at birth and legs like this are an emotional setback even when they know the chances are that the legs will straighten in time.
 
The more foals you have that come out straight, the bigger the disappointment when one comes out overly curled.
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Foals very rarely come out straight - and as a seasoned breeder he will (or should) know this - and again should recognise quite quickly the signs indicating a severe problem or a minor one which will rectify quite quickly.

I've never known a breeder disappointed with a crooked foal - because it's pretty much a fact of life - and very rarely a situation that can't be rectified.
 
amymay said:
Foals very rarely come out straight - and as a seasoned breeder he will (or should) know this - and again should recognise quite quickly the signs indicating a severe problem or a minor one which will rectify quite quickly.

I've never known a breeder disappointed with a crooked foal - because it's pretty much a fact of life - and very rarely a situation that can't be rectified.
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How many foals have you personally bred? :confused: I've bred lots and I would say 95% of my foals come out straight. We must move in very different breeding circles as every breeder I know has been disappointed when they've had the odd foal come out crooked.
 
Crooked foals are certainly not a rareity, and they are becoming more and more common as generally they are caused by the mare being fed too much! With modern stud feeds and this constant fashion to have horses too fat, it happens a lot unfortunately.

Regarding the restriction on exercise, the main problem is that a foal does not generally know how much activity their weak or crooked legs can take. So they will boing around, mum often doesn't help either as something they keep the foal moving rather than letting it rest. When the muscles get too tired you are then left with the tendons and ligaments supporting more....they then continue to develop in the incorrect way rather than evening out.
 
people lose foals altogether, this one is alive and walking round quite well i think, looks like wants to move around a bit more, i've seen legs going in all directions come right, its a lovely foal the owners should realise how lucky they are.
 
amymay said:
Foals very rarely come out straight - and as a seasoned breeder he will (or should) know this - and again should recognise quite quickly the signs indicating a severe problem or a minor one which will rectify quite quickly.

I've never known a breeder disappointed with a crooked foal - because it's pretty much a fact of life - and very rarely a situation that can't be rectified.
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I can't see what the breeder (or OP) has done wrong and I think you are being a bit harsh.
The foal is on restriction, and has seen vet.
A breeder is perfectly entitled to be disappointed in what they have bred, and there is no real indication from this thread that they are disappointed purely because of the limb issues - perhaps they are disappointed with the overall quality of the foal?
Honestly, do long time experienced breeder like everything they breed - if they are realists I suspect not!
 
OMG how confusing for anyone reading these posts. I have not read them all but enough, one person saying turn out on a steep hill, plenty of excercise & those (like I have been informed by vets) to restrict turn-out. Your first port of call should always ask your vet, if you want clarification or other views then ask on the forum. But your vet is the one seeing & feeling what is going on, the forum it far too remote. I am just wondering if the vet had been (would not have thought so judging by the bed), so (and forgive me if this was futher along in the thread) has he/she been now & what was the verdict. Will slap myself for you if this has been updated!
 
Magic I do agree. The TB breeders on horsebreeders forum gave very good advice last year to a very crooked foal .. the results were amazing and a full set of photos posted.

They recommended restricted T/O to begin with i.e stable, t/o stable etc for short periods.

Worth asking Lynne for a ref to the photos.

The filly did very well.
 
I have seen a few foals like this & all the advice re restricted turn out & the leg stretching excerises is completely right. Re the bed I have always been advised by the vet to get rid of the straw & use rubber matting & a thin layer of shavings so that the faol is standing & walking on a flat surface. Walking on a lumpy thick bed will not help at all to encourage the legs to straighten & will encourage the swing of the back legs. I have yet to see one that didn't come right. Hope this helps.
 
amymay said:
It's because veterinary science has shown that restricting the movement will not put undue strain on weekend tendons and ligaments. You risk making the problem much worse with too much exercise in the first couple of weeks, whilst they are straightening and strengthening.

You do turn out - but with restriction.

Nothing to do with old wives tales. Just good old science and common sense.
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But it's not science is it Amymay? If no-one has taken a set of bent foals (due to soft tissue stretching and/or contraction, not joint/bone malformation which quite obviously will not correct itself), matched them for bentness, turned half of them out and restricted the exercise of half of them and checked them at maturity, then there is nothing whatsoever to show that it is the restricted exercise that is resolving the problem or not.

The old wives tale is the turnout. The modern way is to err on the side of caution and keep in. There is no scientific evidence, as far as I can find out, to show whether one of these approaches is better than the other at straightening a bent foal or not.
 
cptrayes said:
The old wives tale is the turnout. The modern way is to err on the side of caution and keep in. There is no scientific evidence, as far as I can find out, to show whether one of these approaches is better than the other at straightening a bent foal or not.
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But what if you're wrong and you just happened to have been lucky that yours have gone right when they could have gone the other way?
Do you really think people should risk turning out like you did just on your say so when all the veterinary evidence and experience says to be very careful and not over tire the foal and the limbs when they are compromised already? Yes, there is the case for controlled exercise but not to the extent of physically tiring the foal (which could/would happen in your example) on already compromised limbs; little and often would be better than continuous I feel.
I, for one, would not risk it with a foal of mine I'm afraid and would err on the tried and tested way, the side of caution but it's up to each to make their own minds up to what they would do because every foal and circumstances will be different.

OP. How's foal today?
 
OP. How's foal today?


Foaly is ok. She HAS to go out for 1 hour each day, any more than that she gets tired and weak, and any less and her dam goes insane! Her dam actually isn't the nicest mare, very ginger and is a very firey character!!
We have to do this for 2 weeks, then re-assess and hope we can increase time out after that. Mare should go back to stud in 4 weeks, but that all hangs in the balance of how foaly will be by then.
 
Allover said:
Thanks for the update, are you and the owner feeling a little more hopefull about it all now? :)
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Mr owner is still disapointed but Mrs owner has better hopes. I am with Mrs owner. Time is a great healer in many ways and it will be at least 2 years until she is anywhere near the track.
 
I suppose with the TB breeding industry there are so many born each year, there is generally more money invested in the stud fee etc and there is far more competition, that anything less than perfect can be seen as a disappointment, TBs also do not have the luxury of time when they are put into training so young.

Give baby a big cutey kiss from me please, she really is adorable :)
 
Maesfen said:
But what if you're wrong and you just happened to have been lucky that yours have gone right when they could have gone the other way?
Do you really think people should risk turning out like you did just on your say so
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On my sayso, Mrs Angry? I said that if she was mine I would turn her out. I gave no advice to anyone else to do so, but you seem angry with me, why? Is it that I have questionned the scientific basis for keeping them in - don't shoot the messenger, it's not my fault if there isn't any, is it? What do I really think? I really think people should be doing what they feel is right and like it or not there are actually two alternative approaches, neither of which seems to be supported by any scientific evidence and both of which can produce evidence of cures.

In your haste to attack me, you didn't read what I wrote. I don't breed so I have never had a bent foal and I risked nothing. Tempted as I have often been to breed my own, when I do the sums I can buy a straight four year old for less than it costs to breed it, without any of these risks of bent or dead foals, or injuries in the first four years.
 
but if that is the case and you don't breed foals and never have, why would you even say you would go against the advice of those who have been breeding foals for years? If you have no experience of this you have no basis at all for saying you would turn out if she was yours. When a new breeder or someone inexperienced in breeding (and I very much count myself in that group) asks for help, it is only really helpful to have advice from people who have experience of it - not someone who assumes they would do something completely different IF they ever bred a foal....don't you think
 
What works for one person might not work for another.. everyone has their own way of doing things that works for them!!!

I have had the luxury of working at studs in UK and Australia.

At the stud I worked at in Aus.. if we had a foal like that .. it would be out 24/7 in a yard (about 10 metres by 10 metres) so turnout is restricted.. but it would be outside in something bigger than a stable!

When I first saw foals like the one in the video outside all the time.. i was shocked!! i wanted to lock them up in boxes and turn them out for a limited time per day.. BUT.. their way works too - foals came good in no time!!

In my opinion.. the key is to restrict their exercise but give them enough to prevent them getting heavy but help them stengthen. Obviously Australia has the luxury of 24/7 turnout even through winter without being 3ft deep in mud!!!

Good luck with the foal.. it will come right.. I personally wouldn't be worried about it being windswept.time and strength will resolve that, but I'd keep an eye on how upright it is! Please keep us updated.. maybe post some more photos as the weeks go by to show us how it's improving!
 
LynneB said:
but if that is the case and you don't breed foals and never have, why would you even say you would go against the advice of those who have been breeding foals for years? If you have no experience of this you have no basis at all for saying you would turn out if she was yours. When a new breeder or someone inexperienced in breeding (and I very much count myself in that group) asks for help, it is only really helpful to have advice from people who have experience of it - not someone who assumes they would do something completely different IF they ever bred a foal....don't you think
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I don't breed myself as I think, moneywise, it's a mug's game. It doesn't mean to say that I don't have experience of breeding, that is your very arrogant assumption, and one that is incorrect.

Which do you think is more likely to damage the foal in the video? Turnout for one hour a day when either she or her mother may go nuts at the unaccustomed freedom? Or turnout in a small area 24 hours a day where she can move for 10 mins and then rest, move then rest, move then rest for the whole day, with no incentive to go bananas once a day? Swings and roundabouts, I would say, between the likelihood of an explosion versus too much activity in the 24 hour period.

There are two sides to this discussion and I am intrigued at the attempt to shut down any discussion of the other side, in spite of a poster able to show a severely deformed foal and later pictures of it in full health.

The poster is not the breeder, she was posting in the hope of being given information that would prevent the owner from giving up on the foal. She is not in a position to take anyone's advice on this thread, she is the stud groom and will do what she is told by the owner, yard manager and the vet. So please get off your high horse preaching at me.
 
cptrayes said:
Which do you think is more likely to damage the foal in the video? Turnout for one hour a day when either she or her mother may go nuts at the unaccustomed freedom? Or turnout in a small area 24 hours a day where she can move for 10 mins and then rest, move then rest, move then rest for the whole day, with no incentive to go bananas once a day?
I agree with this.. BUT. unfortunately.. in this country at this time of year this isn't practical!!!

(not meaning to butt in here!) :)
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O_P, there's only one thing which your foal needs. TIME. Certainly I'd give the foal and mare, restricted turnout, but beyond that, I really wouldn't worry too much. All so often, we worry ourselves over something which with growth, will sort itself out. I fail to see what's so wrong with your foal, to be truthful. :)

There are many Group 1 winners, which have started life, as your foal has, and have got where they are without undue interference. Be patient.

Alec.
 
Alec Swan said:
O_P, there's only one thing which your foal needs. TIME. Certainly I'd give the foal and mare, restricted turnout, but beyond that, I really wouldn't worry too much. All so often, we worry ourselves over something which with growth, will sort itself out. I fail to see what's so wrong with your foal, to be truthful. :)

There are many Group 1 winners, which have started life, as your foal has, and have got where they are without undue interference. Be patient.

Alec.
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As she is not the owner her patience is irrelevant. There is a difference between turn-out on steep hills & restricted which does not necessary mean 1hr turn-out. Not everyone though has access to a small area other then the stable. Every now & again one of these would be born to one of the cob mares as the mares were on chains, restriction was automatic & the foals all came good with no vets intervention. Each situation is different & shouting people down does not help but reading all this would have most confused as to the right course. That is why I stick with check with your vet & go from there. This instance is slightly different anyway as the poster is not the owner & as it has rightly been stated can only follow orders.
 
Alec Swan said:
O_P, there's only one thing which your foal needs. TIME. Certainly I'd give the foal and mare, restricted turnout, but beyond that, I really wouldn't worry too much. All so often, we worry ourselves over something which with growth, will sort itself out. I fail to see what's so wrong with your foal, to be truthful. :)

There are many Group 1 winners, which have started life, as your foal has, and have got where they are without undue interference. Be patient.

Alec.
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Totally agree, I have seen lots of foals with very bent legs that have come right with time and restricted turnout, try not to worry too much OP, I have seen a lot worse than your friend's foal come right. The vet is the best one to advise you.
 
cptrayes said:
But it's not science is it Amymay? If no-one has taken a set of bent foals (due to soft tissue stretching and/or contraction, not joint/bone malformation which quite obviously will not correct itself), matched them for bentness, turned half of them out and restricted the exercise of half of them and checked them at maturity, then there is nothing whatsoever to show that it is the restricted exercise that is resolving the problem or not.

The old wives tale is the turnout. The modern way is to err on the side of caution and keep in. There is no scientific evidence, as far as I can find out, to show whether one of these approaches is better than the other at straightening a bent foal or not.
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Really? Are your telling us that vets would routinely recommend treatments that have no basis in science but are purely anecdotal?

Interesting that you have never bred a foal, have never even seen one with bent legs yet you still feel that you are in a position to advise :(
 
SirenaXVI said:
Really? Are your telling us that vets would routinely recommend treatments that have no basis in science but are purely anecdotal?

Interesting that you have never bred a foal, have never even seen one with bent legs yet you still feel that you are in a position to advise :(
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Where do you get your information that I have never seen a foal with bent legs? It is incorrect. And I repeat, I have advised no-one. Other people have advised keeping the foal in a stable. I have only said that if she was mine I would not do so. Why do you feel it necessary to attack me????


The answer to your other question is yes, it is happening all the time.

Examples:
There was a discussion on the treatment of laminitis with heart bar shoes on another thread recently and some barefooters, me among them, challenged the vet who was discussing this with us to come up with the scientific evidence for the effectiveness of heart bar shoes versus no shoes at all. She could not. There is none. Yet this is routinely recommended by vets for foundered horses. The only research that has been done is between different types of shoes and dorsal wall resection. Dorsal wall resection, a drastic move, is being done on the basis of studies with TEN horses, five treated one way and five another. Those numbers are a long way from scientifically significant.

During that discussion, the vet concerned indicated that the evidence for the use of adequan in cases of navicular syndrome is very weak. And yet you will find adequan prescribed on a regular basis for just that purpose.

Dectomax is being prescribed for the treatment of leg mites in horses. Scientfically untested, it's an injectable cow wormer and not licenced for use in horses.

I know a homeopathic vet. Far from there being no scientific evidence of the efficacy of homeopathy, there is a ton of it. And ALL of it shows that homeopathy does not work. Yet homeopathic vets are routinely prescibing homopathic remedies when the weight of science is fully against them.

A year or two back I went to a presentation on skin diseases in the horse presented by someone who was introduced as a national expert. She recommended the use of an Avon beauty product for the prevention of sweet itch. Now I'm guessing, but I'd be reasonably sure that no scientific research has been done on the efficacy of that product for that purpose!

I could go on but you are probably bored already.
 
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cptrayes said:
There is no scientific evidence, as far as I can find out, to show whether one of these approaches is better than the other at straightening a bent foal or not.
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Nope - but there's a LOT of experience from a lot of breeders that suggests that restricted exercise is the best management for some forms of neo-natal limb deformities (for others, more exercise is best.)

20 years ago there was NO scientific evidence to prove that lambs who were left wet and cold after birth, died - although thousands of sheep farmers KNEW it was true. Not good enough for the scientists. MAFF sponsored research in which new-born lambs had their temperatures dropped abnormally. Guess what?? They died!! :mad:
 
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