New Foal, but has a problem. What to do. VIDEO

[cptrayes]

Nope - but there's a LOT of experience from a lot of breeders that suggests that restricted exercise is the best management for some forms of neo-natal limb deformities (for others, more exercise is best.)
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JanetGeorge you are not correct in that statement, I'm sorry (genuinely, I really wish this was cut and dried for people as that would make things a lot easier for anyone with a decision to make, but it isn't). What there is, is a lot of experience from a lot of breeders that foals with bent legs due to soft tissue contraction/elongation will come right with restricted exercise. There is none that I can find that says that those foals would not also have come right with turnout in a small paddock 24/7, or even on a steep hillside. There is evidence from two other posters on this forum that they would.

Why is it so difficult for people to accept that there is more than one approach to this problem? The original foal, from the video, has so little obviously wrong with it that it would be very surprising if it doesn't come right no matter what anyone does with it, bar shooting it as the owner wants to do!

 

[RuthnMeg]

Have new, and hopefully better, video of foal taken today which I will download shortly for you to see.
I appriciate everyones opinions, in fact, I didn't realise there was such a contradiction in whether or not the foal should have turnout or not! Personally, I would opt for turn out, like in the wild. After all, those foals born wild don't have stables or restrictions!!
But, this foal isn't mine, and due to the cost of the mating between sire and dam, is already, well should be, worth £4k. Better not do what I would then eh?!

 

[Maesfen]

I appriciate everyones opinions, in fact, I didn't realise there was such a contradiction in whether or not the foal should have turnout or not! Personally, I would opt for turn out, like in the wild. After all, those foals born wild don't have stables or restrictions!!

Can understand your viewpoint and totally respect it but just remember the difference between those born in the wild and thoroughbred foals. The difference, not only in the situation/conditions they are reared in but also their constitutions too. Also their value will come into it and people would be less willing to risk it going pear shape than if it was a pony off the moor so better to stick with the usual methods for now - until there is scientific results to prove differently of course.

 

[Allover]

Can understand your viewpoint and totally respect it but just remember the difference between those born in the wild and thoroughbred foals. The difference, not only in the situation/conditions they are reared in but also their constitutions too. Also their value will come into it and people would be less willing to risk it going pear shape than if it was a pony off the moor so better to stick with the usual methods for now - until there is scientific results to prove differently of course.

Hear hear

p.s. Looking forward to the vid

 

[tristar]

in one post someone said about the mother going galloping round madly as a reason not to turn out the foal, but i always turn out the first few times and i hold the mare in a bridle and bit while the foal takes what exercise it needs or feels like for short periods, unless i was advised otherwise by a specialist vet, the movement is what straightens the legs of foal and generally unfurls it, i"d be worried if it was'nt getting any exercise a all, i like to idea about putting the foal on matting, but would prefer paper to shavings,

 

[sybil]

At the end of the day, experience from breeders is not, and never will be, scientific evidence. You have to account for the fact that there are breeders out there that just dont report things like this because they either see it so bad and just put it down or they just deal with it. There are also those breeders who do one thing and then proclaim its the way forward and so all their friends then try something similar, etc etc etc. There are several ways things like this can be treated and encouraged to come good and not all of them have been tried by every body who has ever had a windswept foal or one with contracted tendons.

To actually produce scientific evidence for which way works best you need huge groups of foals, all of which have the same degree of "windsweptness" or tendon contraction, control what they eat, the climate they live in, the food the mare eats, what breed they are etc etc etc... when you factor in the fact that genetic factors may have an impact on how things respond to treatment aswell, the variables that could affect the outcome are so huge in numbers that it makes it nigh on impossible to find research groups large enough (even if you do it over 10 years). The likelihood that research like this is logistically possible is very slim.

We all have to remember that what is one person's hell is another's heaven- if you dont have a yard you can turn out in, then there isnt much you can do but just turn it out for an hour or so a day. Likewise, if you have a mare that literally WILL NOT abide being boxed for long periods of time then perhaps its the lesser of two evils to turn them out in the smallest paddock you have (even if it is bigger than you would like). At the end of the day there are usually things you can do to fix things like this- there isnt much you can do about a foal with its head mashed in because the mare is steamrollering around her box.

I have seen much much worse come good and I am relatively certain that by reducing bedding a little and being patient that the foal will eventually straighten up. We all know that not everyone on here will agree with turn out, just as not every one on here agrees with keeping them boxed up, but if the mare isnt the easiest then perhaps turning them out in the smallest paddock you have is less of an evil than letting her box walk all over the foal? especially when you dont have a choice in the amount of bedding you use.

 

[omen62]

Hear hear

Further proof in the difference is the ave time taken to foal down. TB's take longer & would be at risk in the wild, plus they seem to need more assistance then most. How would anyone know about research, I am sure plenty goes on that never reaches google! Also there are very few cases in the wild, so again not really comparable. You may get them a bit down on their fetlocks, but otherwise they are pretty straight forward.

 

[omen62]

20 years ago there was NO scientific evidence to prove that lambs who were left wet and cold after birth, died - although thousands of sheep farmers KNEW it was true. Not good enough for the scientists. MAFF sponsored research in which new-born lambs had their temperatures dropped abnormally. Guess what?? They died!!

Well you only had to be at High Street, Lake District at Easter time about 16/17yrs ago, it was littered with dead lambs after the snow that year

 

[GinnieRedwings]

I appriciate everyones opinions, in fact, I didn't realise there was such a contradiction in whether or not the foal should have turnout or not! Personally, I would opt for turn out, like in the wild. After all, those foals born wild don't have stables or restrictions!!

I am a great advocate of doing as nature intended as much as possible, but in the "wild", foals born with difformities simply die eaten by predators - that sort of natural selection is less acceptable in a commercial breeding situation... especially when something can be done about it relatively easily!!!

 

[magic104]

I am a great advocate of doing as nature intended as much as possible, but in the "wild", foals born with difformities simply die eaten by predators - that sort of natural selection is less acceptable in a commercial breeding situation... especially when something can be done about it relatively easily!!!

I dont think there are many Predators here in the UK, so would think they are pretty safe. I think the thing is that flim taken of Zebra, Wild Ass, Camargue ponies etc show a quicker birth process then that of our domestic horses especially TB's. Again just a generlisation, & the only natural selection is that where man has no interference what so ever.

 

[GinnieRedwings]

I dont think there are many Predators here in the UK, so would think they are pretty safe.

That's what you think... my friend's gelding has been trying to convince us of the presence of a mountain lion in the woods next to his paddock even since he moved in!

Seriously though, if you think a fox can't take down a Dartmoor pony foal that can't follow the herd because he can't walk properly, you are seriously mistaken. And mum would probably not bother trying to defend it for too long knowing that it isn't realistically viable - as a handicapped animal will always put the herd in danger.

There may not be any mountain lions in the UK, but there are predators large enough to take down wild or feral horses in other parts of the world and horses, even here in the UK, even domesticated for a very long time, are incredibly close to their instinct - That same instinct that tells my friend's gelding (he wasn't gelded until he was 10 years old and ran with a herd where he was the "protector") that he does not feel comfortable living quite so close to the woods, where the mountain lions might be on the prowl!!!

 

[glenruby]

Just to add to the mix -the coloured foal shown turned out on steep hills has not got the same DOD as the foal in the first video. The reasoning behind limite turnout (whether that be by turning out in a small pen 24hrs or 1 hour in a foal paddock daily) is to gently stretch the tendons without putting them under undue pressure for long periods of time. I have no doubt the majority of mild cases would correct regardless of management however xs turnout could cause damage to tendons and ligaments by tearing and stretching. Contracted tendons are not a painful condition and turning out in a large field/hills a foal will no doubt explore and trot/canter about. By keeping in a small pen or mare and foal paddock, there is limitd space for mare to have a gallop and also the foal will never be far from the mare so no need to repeatedly trot or canter after her as she moves her grazing spot.
In severe cases, further medical or surgical intervention is required to correct these disorders.
Foals in the wild born with very severe developmental disorders are as said before removed by natural selection but anything less than v severe will most likely survive. Thats not to say their legs will straighten, nor that they would be rideable. Thats not their purpose, galloping away from predators may not seem unlike the strain induced by racing but their is the mere factor of 8-12stone weight to carry which makes them very different things.

ETA - the coloured foal has (from memory as i havent looked at page one for a few days) lax tendons, little risk of stetching tendons or ligaments except perhaps extensor tendons which of course we know are not as vital to athletic performance as the flerure tendons.

 

[magic104]

Seriously though, if you think a fox can't take down a Dartmoor pony foal that can't follow the herd because he can't walk properly, you are seriously mistaken. And mum would probably not bother trying to defend it for too long knowing that it isn't realistically viable - as a handicapped animal will always put the herd in danger. (QUOTE]

I know foxes can work in pairs because I have seen them. As for taking out a foal, I would have to witness that one or see a film of it, sorry not convienced. Same as I am not convienced that UFO's exist just on the say so of eye witnesses, or even myself seeing a light leave one star & travel & appear to settle on another!

PS
And yes mine has a problem with crocs in water, cant convience him otherwise!

 

[Allover]

Hear hear

Further proof in the difference is the ave time taken to foal down. TB's take longer & would be at risk in the wild, plus they seem to need more assistance then most. How would anyone know about research, I am sure plenty goes on that never reaches google! Also there are very few cases in the wild, so again not really comparable. You may get them a bit down on their fetlocks, but otherwise they are pretty straight forward.

I dont understand your point on this one?

 

[GinnieRedwings]

PS
And yes mine has a problem with crocs in water, cant convience him otherwise!

Ah, yes, probably his uncle has told him about a friend who had told him about a distant relative in Florida, who once saw a friend get eaten by a crocodile whilst crossing water... ... or so goes the story Monty Roberts is fond of telling when demonstrating the beginnings of helping horses with their fear of water - very entertaining.

 

[magic104]

I dont understand your point on this one?

The poster ref the wild, for some reason that part of the quote did not follow over. There is no comparison to the wild as TB's would struggle to survive anyway. If they were out in Kenya & took as long as some to foal down they would have been eaten, obviously if they were in the New Forest they have a better chance.