New here hoping for help for Molly

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Molly's mum

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Hello everyone

I’m Molly’s Mum and I hoping you will be able to help me help her to a more comfortable life. I know very little about horses and have only had horses for 2 years, we sort of ‘rescued’ the two we have though to do so cost over £3K…I know many of you will think this was madness but we loved these two girls, they weren't quite neglected - but almost, so we worked hard to persuade the dealer to sell them to us. I should also say I have little knowledge of terminology of horses so if you think I've used an odd term then please correct me.
Molly was dx last Oct with a tendon sheath tear in her rear right ankle. She’s 14 and we knew she’d been trained as a ride and drive what we didn't know was that she’d had also been jumped and then retired after this injury. That would have been when she was aged about 4. After that she’d been sold to the dealer and he had used her as a brood mare until we got her though she hadn't had a foal for the last 4 years prior to us buying her. After the dx we worked with our vet on the best course of treatment and Molly was put on box rest which for us here meant into a small grassed area with a barn and her companion of the field – a 30yr old gelding. They were in this area over the winter for about three months.
We live next to a farm and my horses are in the field on the other side of our green lane owned by the farmer. He decided he wanted them to go back into the main field and moved her whilst I was at work :( She went from a confined space to a field of about 5 acres. The next day the local hunt arrived and used the lane as a base to drop horses and dogs and to hunt along. They are supposed to give us notice (we live on a country estate) but they didn’t and that day dogs were running amongst heavily pregnant cows, and our horses were distressed and charging along the field hedge from one end of the field to the other. It was total mayhem and impossible to control. :( You can imagine how I felt after months of trying to get Molly right and keeping her quiet! Things weren't going well with her injury and we had the op booked for the end of April but after the hunt visit things started to go very wrong. I noticed she was limping much more than she had been. We had a visit from a Bowen practitioner who told me she thought there was a bigger problem with Molly’s left hind leg. The vet came back and examined Molly and she was x-rayed and nerve blocked. The outcome was a dx of severe arthritis in the lowest joint of the left hock and evidence of the start of arthritis in her right hock. :( I was told not to worry too much as there was a good combination treatment that would get things under control so Molly had that treatment a couple of weeks later.
She was given a steroid injection into the hock joint, Tildren and was started on Cartrophen…a jab once a week for 4 weeks and thereafter monthly. She had the 5th cartrophen last Tuesday. I’m sad to say I don’t think there is any improvement at all, in fact if anything I think she’s worse…certainly without Bute in her. Prior to the start of treatment the lameness was only obvious to an experienced horse person. Now without Bute it’s a clearly obvious limp and when first getting up she limps badly for a good ¼ - ½ hour. Once she’s got going properly I can still see the limp but none horse people wouldn’t. Molly struggles to get up if she’s down on her left side and has to roll over to get up on the other side. I tried not to give the Bute last night and gave NoBute instead sadly this morning she was limping (I can watch them from my bathroom window) but by the time I got to her with some Bute she had lay down. She had the bute. I wasn't here when she got up but have seen her walking since and she seems ok.
I will give her another sachet of Bute this evening when I give her glucosamine/chondroitin/MSM. We started using it a week ago so she still has another week of a loading dose of that. I will list her treatment again below to make it simple to read.

These horses are at grass all year round, they are not rugged or stabled during the winter because Molly has always been out and so has Ruby who is full cob. So I would really like to get this under control for Molly as soon as possible to give us a head start on the autumn weather. I am also going to get some hock boots to protect the joints as much as possible. But would welcome any advice e or thoughts from you experienced people.

I am 63 years old next month and had hoped that I might learn to ride with Molly but that’s not going to happen now so she will simply be a pet (not my favourite term but you’ll understand what I mean) and Ruby who was born in the field and is now 5 will be trained for riding though I suspect a little too ambitious for me to consider riding. I also have dogs and am heavily involved in running an on-line support group for autoimmune affected dogs…I have had three dogs with AI conditions over the years so have a lot of experience in managing AI dogs using ‘off piste’ ideas that often defy convention as well as understanding that there is a place for alternative medicine alongside traditional treatments.

Thanks for reading if you've got this far and thanks in advance to anyone willing to share their ideas and thoughts to help Molly. Also if anyone has any experience of the efficacy of NoBute I'd be grateful to hear of it.

One off treatment of
Steroid injection into the joint
Tildren drip
Ongoing treatments
Cartorphen
Glucosamine/Chondrotin/MSM
Daily Bute sachet
tsp Turmeric
 
How long ago was the joint injection? There is a small risk that this can cause a serious joint infection. If there is any worsening of a lameness after such an injection, consult the vet urgently. Steroid injections can also induce laminitis in some horses, so have her checked to make sure she does not have laminitis. Lying down is a frequent symptom of this.

That said, sometimes hock arthritis gets worse before it gets better. Arthritis follows a cycle of inflammation and ossification and then sometimes fusion and the resolving of pain. I hope she comes right for you.
 
Definitely get her checked for laminitis and get the vet back to check for infection. One thing worth considering is sectioning off a bit of the current field to restrict her movement but I think patience is key. Trust your vet and follow their advice and Molly can have a good non-ridden life for years to come.
 
Thanks for replying Wagtail. The steroid injection was 5 weeks ago.

I do so hope that this IS it just getting worse before getting better. My vet has suggested fusing the joint by an injection of alcohol. Not sure I like the sound of that very much but, as I said, I'm a ignoramus when it comes to horses so maybe that will turn out to be the best course of action.

Have you any experience of NoBute or Cartrophen?

thanks again
 
Molly's mum said:
Thanks for replying Wagtail. The steroid injection was 5 weeks ago.

I do so hope that this IS it just getting worse before getting better. My vet has suggested fusing the joint by an injection of alcohol. Not sure I like the sound of that very much but, as I said, I'm a ignoramus when it comes to horses so maybe that will turn out to be the best course of action.

Have you any experience of NoBute or Cartrophen?

thanks again
Click to expand...

I have used Nobute but it didn't really make much difference. I use danilon for pain relief as it is more palatable for the horses and kinder to the stomach. I have not tried Cartrophen.
 
Thanks for the reply

Actually we've just finished fencing an area ready for if or when we could get the tendon repair done but everything I read says not to restrict space...though I know of course that she currently does have just a bit TOO much.

Molly is not shod and is trimmed every 8 weeks...done about a month ago and it was after this that she got worse...something has just occurred to me as I wrote that last line...my vet has asked my trimmer to trim Molly's feet differently to make her hoof less flat i.e. toe cut shorter at the front and the heel left more raised to line up the knee and ankle better. I suppose there's a chance that that may have caused the limp to appear/be worse.

I don't think she has laminitis but will get the vet to check...am I right in saying that if she her ankle/hoof would be warm? The vet examined her 10 days ago and there was no sign then.

thanks again
 
I suspect that the drug you're calling Cartrophen is what Americans call Adequan. Half the horses I knew in the US were on it, due to the hard terrain and the prevalence of quarter horses with crappy, upright leg conformation (including the one I used to own). A lot of these horses stayed in work for a lot longer, due to the Adequan and joint injections. I reckoned that my QH was unlikely to work into her 20s (but who knows... I sold her a while ago) but it definitely made her more comfortable into her mid and late teens.
 
The Turmeric Users Group on Facebook might have some suggestions for you. You could certainly up the dose you're giving her now, to quite a bit more. Plenty of people in the TUG have success stories with arthritic horses/dogs/cats/people with using Turmeric. You need to add freshly ground black pepper and oil (linseed or olive or coconut). Have a look through their files. Im using it for my horse but for sarcoids. Def worth a try. Good luck.
 
Cartophen worked well on my old boy who had arthritic changes to his knee joints. I noticed him perk up pretty much straight away. He didn't have any other issues though.
 
Hi Mollys Mum. Firstly welcome, i hope you find some help and answers through the forum. Is Molly still in the 5acre field that the farmer put her in? I too am worried about possible laminitis as it sounds as though she went from a small space onto a lot of grass. If this is the case, I second whoever suggested getting her into a smaller area. However, equally as probable is that her hooning around in the field has aggravated both tendon and hock injuries. As another poster mentioned, the amount of turmeric you are giving her is negligible - mine has about twenty times that amount per day! Not sure what op the vet has suggested for her tendon....in the olden days before expensive diagnositic tools became the norm, we used to just turf them out in the field for three or six months and cold hose the tendon each day!
 
Please do advise your vet if you are giving any other treatments not advised by them, as some of the products can interact.
Good luck with Molly; it would be much easier if they could talk.:)
 
Sorry, just read your qu about whether laminitis would cause heat in the hoof. The answer is that it usually does but not necessarily. Also, they equally can get a hot hoof without lami being the problem! Laminitis does usually cause them to have a significantly raised digital pulse. Next time the vet is there, ask him to show you how to check for this as its a useful thing to know generally. Other signs of lami include the horse persistently lying down more than normal, standing in an unusual stance (typically with the weight thrown back on to the hind feet to relieve pressure on the front feet, but not always) or being reluctant to walk on hard ground.
 
I've tried to keep things as simple and short as possible which means I haven't given enough details. Molly was put back into the big field three months ago. She went into the field with three other horses and, with my encouragement, 7 bullocks who were there until about a month ago so not lots of grass and as we've had little rain there's nowhere near the amount of the grass we had last year. I had to send my other mare Ruby to boot camp last year she became so fat :( From last week we have another 2 bullocks in there but one horse less so although I don't think Molly has laminitis but I am getting it checked.

Not only did we have the event with the hunt but it turns out that a local girl has decided to ride her horse up the lane each day so of course out lot have also been running the line each time. I was unaware this had been going on as I'm at work when she comes but I've explained to her that I have a lame horse and asked if she could just walk her horse rather than trot. In fact, she hasn't been since. Also two weeks after her Tildren and steriod shot the trimmer came. We never have a problem with that - ever - and nor did we this time except we did it on the yard that leads to our new paddock and thinking we were doing the right thing for Molly her front feet were done and then she was given a break whilst we did Ruby who was being the normal pain trying to pushing in...usually "me now. me now, me now" routine but when I went to put the halter on Ruby she starting messing about and running of. This set the other two off and before we could stop them they were screaming round the little paddock, screatching to a halt in each corner and then on again to the next. We backed off because we could see we were making it worse but still it went on for a good 5 mins:( It was really after that event and the daily visitor that things started to get worse....so yes I do think you are right about 'hooning' around not helping but it's so difficult to control given the space and other horses. Short of being in the field 24/7 I have to just do the best I can. The farmer told me he was putting 7 more bullocks in the field today to wean them and as the grass isn't the right length for them he was going to feed hay too!! aaaarrrrggggghhhhhhh!!!!!! Thankfully within 1/2 an hour of doing so three escaped trying to get to their mothers which meant he just gave in and moved them back...for now at least. It does seem that we take 2 steps forward and 5 back managing Molly's environment :( But I have to work with what I have as best I can and just get on with it.

I now believe she's lived with the tendon injury most of her adult life, certainly she never showed any signs of it before we bought her nor for the first year and the swelling has gone down to the point where the vet thinks maybe we should forget about it and deal with it as and when we need to and just concentrate on her other leg.

I think we're between a rock and a hard place with the facilities we have available to us. I don't want to restrict her to the paddock long term but am thinking it might be worth doing so during the day and letting her into the rest of field at night. The only problem with that is there's one less mouth eating during the day so Ruby will just get fatter again :( THe farmer can be really helpful some of the time but he's also a difficult man at times and doesn't want the field sectioned off. Tbh, getting the paddock built was a major achievement.

What are you thoughts about hock boots? are these what they call magnetic boots?

Thanks for the heads up on the turmeric. I was being cautious but giving a little more each day. I'm not on facebook but I have been given a turmeric paste recipe from their page so will make that up. How do you give it? I was putting it into a scooped out apple but she's not keen bless her. I don't feed Molly anything other the grated carrot or apple I give her gluc/chon/msm mashed into so it's hard to administer stuff she won't take as a treat.

I really aprecciate everyone's responses.
 
it certainly would :)

Yes I did check about using Bute with the glucosamine mix but not about giving turmeric immediately after so if anyone knows of why I ought not to do it that way pls let me know

thank you
x
 
If I'm honest, I question why you are spending lots of money on her. She needs to be field sound and so long as she is comfortable, I would save money to spend on a horse you can ride. From the sound of her previous injuries you are unlikely to ever be able to ride her.
You have saved these horses and given them a safe and comfortable home which is admirable, but it seems a shame you may not get to live your dream of riding.
 
this link gives a summary of turmeric research. http://www.thelaminitissite.org/turmericcurcumin.html
Turmeric has benefits, but an exact effective dose for different conditions doesn't seem to be established yet. High doses can damage the cartilage cells (in joints) but if you are using a product with recommended levels then you should be safe from most side-effects (note that any horse can have an unpredictable reaction, just like humans).
I remember reading that turmeric can interact with some anti-inflammatory drugs (can't remember which ones) so maybe discuss with vet whether turmeric can be given in the same feed?
 
So currently the principal issue is the hock rather than the tendon. O.k, understood now. I have no experience with injections into the hock but I do with injections into other joints. My experience is that some horses respond better to certain substances than others. The first steroid they injected into my horse did not help at all. The second lot of stuff they tried had a much more effective result. So it may be worth speaking with the vet about whether there are any other types of injection available. Magnetic boots are a very personal thing in my view...some people swear by them. I am yet to be convinced, having tried magnetic products on both myself and my horse. However, i do believe that in winter the boots will have the added bonus of keeping the joint warm. I do not think using them on a horse turned out 24/7 would be a good idea though....they may get wet thus causing more discomfort in the joint and are likely to slip down. When i spoke to my vet about using them previously he said if you already have them, use them but if you don't then save your money. In an ideal world, you would put Molly in a smaller area (still big enough for her to amble around, but small enough to stop her going full pelt) with another quiet horse (no crazy bullocks to set her off!) But i appreciate that you have to work with what you have.
 
I have no experience of joint injections in horses but have used magnetic leg wraps very successfully on an arthritic horse. However, I have also tried them on other horses with much less success, it depends very much on the individual horse. My vet is very knowledgeable about a number of 'alternative' therapies but he always says that you can only go with what works for the horse in front of you, just as you must with more conventional treatments, such as the steroid treatment discussed above. After the first 24 hrs, the boots should be 12 hrs on/12 hrs off on alternate legs (by the way the official name for horses' ankles is fetlocks), and are neoprene, so relatively waterproof.
Good luck!
 
If I'm honest, I question why you are spending lots of money on her.

Well because she's mine to care for and therefore its my responsibility to ensure she has the very best chance at this moment in time of some sort of remission/arrest/improvement as is possible so that she then has a better chance of not having her life cut short by being crippled.

Riding wasn't ever a 'dream' as such. It was only once I got to know Molly that I thought I might like to give it a go. learning to ride for riding's sake isn't realistic at 63 but if I had been able to ride (potter really) with Molly along the bridle path for 1/2hr then I would have liked the opportunity to 'bond' in that way with her too...but hey ho! I think I have to accept that's unlikely to happen now.

thanks for your response
 
Molly's mum said:
If I'm honest, I question why you are spending lots of money on her.

Well because she's mine to care for and therefore its my responsibility to ensure she has the very best chance at this moment in time of some sort of remission/arrest/improvement as is possible so that she then has a better chance of not having her life cut short by being crippled.

Riding wasn't ever a 'dream' as such. It was only once I got to know Molly that I thought I might like to give it a go. learning to ride for riding's sake isn't realistic at 63 but if I had been able to ride (potter really) with Molly along the bridle path for 1/2hr then I would have liked the opportunity to 'bond' in that way with her too...but hey ho! I think I have to accept that's unlikely to happen now.

thanks for your response
Click to expand...
I didn't read that post as a criticism about your care for Molly, just that the focus of the spending should be on keeping her comfortable rather than getting her riding sound :)
You mention the concern about the horses eating too much if turned out, but a grazing muzzle might help with this. Otherwise, perhaps rent facilities or put her on DIY livery in a quieter location and where you have more control over the facilities - e.g. it seems that the lane is public, so dogs etc. might set the horses off just as easily as someone riding past/loose horses etc. Perhaps just until she has improved and/or stabilised? However, this might not be financially possible of course.
 
Fun Times said:
So currently the principal issue is the hock rather than the tendon. O.k, understood now. I have no experience with injections into the hock but I do with injections into other joints. My experience is that some horses respond better to certain substances than others. The first steroid they injected into my horse did not help at all. The second lot of stuff they tried had a much more effective result. So it may be worth speaking with the vet about whether there are any other types of injection available. Magnetic boots are a very personal thing in my view...some people swear by them. I am yet to be convinced, having tried magnetic products on both myself and my horse. However, i do believe that in winter the boots will have the added bonus of keeping the joint warm. I do not think using them on a horse turned out 24/7 would be a good idea though....they may get wet thus causing more discomfort in the joint and are likely to slip down. When i spoke to my vet about using them previously he said if you already have them, use them but if you don't then save your money. In an ideal world, you would put Molly in a smaller area (still big enough for her to amble around, but small enough to stop her going full pelt) with another quiet horse (no crazy bullocks to set her off!) But i appreciate that you have to work with what you have.
Click to expand...


Fortunately the bullocks are a from a quiet breed :) You've really confirmed what I'd already thought about boots getting wet...I couldn't see how they wouldn't unless they were waterproof in which case they would cause moisture to get trapped and make the area sweat. I will ask my vet about using a different steroid next time and hope that has the desired effect. To be honest having to start over again with a new vet hasn't helped. I didn't know much before but my old vet was a sweet girl and humoured me...as I'm sure the new one will once we've established a relationship but having started to get into the swing of one way of thinking I have to learn another all over again now. :)

I realise this is a not necessarily an easy question to answer but what would you think would be a suitable sized area to reduce her too without causing too much restriction. The area fenced off at the moment is app 180ft square off off which is a small yard and sturdy large brick built stable which if she wanted t to go in to she could.

This morning I have given her a 2 tsp of turmeric and will check out the link sent by Wkiwi. Do you think adding in some Nobute in an hour or so is worth doing or do you think it might be just too much on top of the turmeric and gluco/chon/msm (which she'll have tonight with bute). We have heavy rain here (since yesterday evening) which shows no sign at all that's it going to ease off today. I'm told Nobute works for some but I don't know whether there's a build up time needed for it to become effective..that would make sense but....I just don't know and I've found little information on the websites about it. There's also the fact that being too impatient will mean I won't be sure what's worked and what hasn't.

Thanks again...very much :)
 
wkiwi said:
I didn't read that post as a criticism about your care for Molly, just that the focus of the spending should be on keeping her comfortable rather than getting her riding sound :)
You mention the concern about the horses eating too much if turned out, but a grazing muzzle might help with this. Otherwise, perhaps rent facilities or put her on DIY livery in a quieter location and where you have more control over the facilities - e.g. it seems that the lane is public, so dogs etc. might set the horses off just as easily as someone riding past/loose horses etc. Perhaps just until she has improved and/or stabilised? However, this might not be financially possible of course.
Click to expand...

I didn't read it as a criticism either and I'm sorry if my reply suggested that. :(

The lane is normally pretty quiet which is why the events of recent weeks has set the horses off...they're not used to it therefore get a little over excited.

I may have to move Molly...I hope not but if all else fails then I will do so.

I may decide to use a grazing muzzle for Ruby during daytime.

Thank you for your reply...sorry you thought I was being touchy.
 
Don't worry, I think it's worth airing these things. I think if you are relatively new to horses it can be easy to throw money at them without realising what long term options are. Not all field sound horse are sound enough to ride, I have had retirees who are not completely sound and have had to make a decision about how much expenditure in terms of emotion as well as money, I am going to commit to them.
I also think with horses - unlike dogs to the same degree, you have to weigh up their management (box rest, starving them due to lami etc.) to evaluate their quality of life.
Sounds like these are not issues for you at the moment.
 
If the old tendon is no longer your primary concern and the reason you believe you will never ride Molly is due to the arthritis of the lower joints in her hocks I would not write her off as a pet yet. It will take time but the hocks smaller bones should fuse and when the process is completed she will have very slightly limited movement in that joint but she should then be in no pain due to the arthritis as the pain is because of the small bones rubbing over each over, once fused this will no longer happen. The alcohol injection you were offered speeds this process up, movement also does this. Fingers crossed if there is no other complications and the tendon injury has healed with your vets permission she may then enjoy gentle hacks, my 24 year old who had the alcohol injections 3 years ago is still sound and hacking and schooling 4 times a week. Well done though for all you effort so far you clearly are very fond of her.
 
Thanks Noble...this is very reassuring news. I would like to have a go at riding her but it isn't my first concern so this is good news on all front.

Can I ask how painful the injection was for your horse? My vet talked sort of mentioned this in passing and said it was very painful. I guess I'll feel more relaxed about Molly once I've got to know the new vet a little better....not mention getting to know more about horses:)

thanks again
 
As with any injection into a joint there will be some pain involved but I believe it was worth it. My older chap had one joint injected and when he returned to the hospital 3 months later to get the second hock injected they x-rayed the first and it was totally fused. They also nerve blocked the second hock to confirm that it was still the problem before injecting and he was sound on the first (worst originally) leg. They do have to inject a dye first to check that the alcohol can't make it through to the large moving joint in the hock as this would be a disaster! He is now completely sound.
 
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