New horse crib biting…. Help

[Emsmacx]

Hi Everyone,

I recently purchased a 3yo gelding over from Ireland (I’ve done this plenty of times before without problem) however on the day he arrived I saw him crib bite on his stable door once, and I’ve since seen him do it a further two times.

If the plan was to keep him for myself, it wouldn’t actually bother me however the plan was always to sell him on. How much would this put you off if purchasing? It’s certainly not constant, and he doesn’t do it at all in the field.

I’ve contacted the seller within 7 days, and he’s of course advising he never did it with him when stabled there.

Advice please on what you would do, as I’m a little worried about how much this could detriment any future sale.

 

[Sossigpoker]

If he doesn't do it in the field and doesn't do it constantly in the stable this may well be due to him being unsettled and therefore it should settle in time.
He might have also been left without hay on the transport and might have ulcers as a result so that might require treatment. I understand why you'd be unwilling to go down the route of expensive treatment on a horse that's just arrived so it might be worth contacting the seller and asking for a partial refund due to this or you might of course wish to insist on the return of the horse. Personally I'd struggle to - morally- send the horse back on a long journey especially in this extreme weather.

 

[Regandal]

It’s a coping mechanism. He’s stressed or in pain.

 

[ycbm]

This is one and only time that I would use a collar to prevent this becoming a habit. But at the same time I would try to address what is causing him stress if it isn't just the move, and give him 25ml of aloe vera juice a day to settle his stomach and think about scoping for ulcers if he still tries to do it when you take the collar off.

Ulcers are very likely after that kind of journey.
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[Winters100]

Going back to your original question for me to consider buying a horse who cribbed it would have to be absolutely perfect in every other way, and a bargain. Even then I am not sure that I would buy. If you can nip this in the bud then I would recommend doing so, but also consider that even if it stops you will need to disclose to buyers that this has happened.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I would suspect ulcers because of the journey/stress and get some aloe vera juice into him asap. Of course if that doesn't make any difference, then I would get the vet. I am afraid this is a risk that you take when buying unseen, which I assume that you did.
As for selling him on, if the cribbing stops quickly, I wouldn't put it in the advert but disclose to the buyer that he might crib when he changes home again, I would think that most experienced buyers wouldn't worry too much about a short lived stress response.

 

[Esmae]

I had this in a nervy foal once, 6 months old and just arrived. I slathered everything in cribox and he stopped doing it fairly quickly and it never became a habit

 

[Emsmacx]

Thank you for your responses. I will order some Aloe Vera juice and Cribox and hopefully, if it has only started since his journey, i can get on top of it before it becomes a habit.

I paid £5000 for this horse as an unbacked 3yo, so he wasn't a bargain. I may also get the dentist out to see if they can confirm if he has any wear on his front teeth, as of course, scoping for ulcers isn't going to be cheap

 

[Shilasdair]

I think you know that the horse has been crib-biting before you bought him - it is somewhat unlikely to have suddenly started now.

Horses crib bite to generate saliva (unlike dogs they can't salivate without biting/chewing) in order to buffer excess stomach acid. Horses evolved to eat for quite a lot of their 24 hour day - but poor horse management often means they go without food for long periods, with resulting stomach acid pain, and crib-biting.
It's complete cruelty (and very outdated) to use a cribbing collar - please don't do that. Don't use Cribox either - horrible stuff which gets everywhere and is punishing him for a physical issue he has. Horses don't swallow air either - that one has been disproven, too.

Instead, try to ensure he has constant access to forage, and also a surface to crib on which won't damage his teeth.
I agree that it might be worth checking him for ulcers with your vets and treating accordingly.

ETA - I'd not be too worried about a horse who crib-bit - although some people might be less understanding.

 

[TPO]

I knowingly bought a cribber however o wouldnt do it again.

It was 2008 and I know a lot more now about management. I treated him as an ulcer horse and had vet involvement from the start. He wasnt scoped as the two times I hired transport to take him in he wouldnt load (to the point he threw himself on the ground- he was very opinionated!).

He was an "HHO horse" from back in the day. He was very underweight when I bought him and hadnt had enough forage. When I bought him I stuffed him full of hay and various supplements. He got turnout on good grazing and was appropriately rugged.

I did use a collar on him for a short period of time and I deeply regret it. His previous owners used the weaver crib collar and it came with him. I bought a new one the fleece covers so it would be comfortable for him ? The thinking behind it was that he was destroying fence posts and a new stable door (kind YO put a metal topper on it to hide/repair it) so that coulsnt continue and when I moved him to a place I privately rented where it was totally chilled I wanted to "break the habit".

I was constantly trying to learn more and I took the collar off. Hate the things now. Having him on a low starch/sugar and high fibre diet helped. Various supplements seemed to help him but at that point in time I mainly used feed mark. These days I'd look into some of the newer ones and Succeed. He was kept in a chilled yard with a non-rigid routine and was "properly" looked after with no expense spared for teeth, hooves and physio.

I think it took less than a year for his cribbing to be practically stopped. During the nice months they lived out and he would have a crib on one fence post after a bucket feed, I think it was more habit as it wasnt as aggressive as it used to be and it would literally be one gulp before he would walk off. I used to have lots of licks/balls & what not in his stable and adlib hay. Initially everything was cribboxed but he stopped in the stable too.

I bought him feb 2008 and sold him july 2009. I cant remember exact timescales for everything but it was within that time.period that he improved. I declared it in his advert and had a very in depth discussion with his buyer (cribbing was the least of his issues when I bought him!) declaring absolutely everything even although it was no longer relevant to him.

It might be worth speaking to BHS gold legal helpline? If it's a trade seller you might have come back as horse isnt as described. Unless you produce him to a high level where by vices are overlooked cribbing will have a detrimental affect on price IMO

 

[ycbm]

It's complete cruelty (and very outdated) to use a cribbing collar - please don't do that.

I think it is cruel to stop a horse habituated to it, but I don't agree that it is cruel to stop a horse from becoming habituated to it as long as everything is being done to remove the reasons why it is trying to start.

I think you know that the horse has been crib-biting before you bought him - it is somewhat unlikely to have suddenly started now

I don't agree with this. It is entirely possible that the horse started ulcers because of the journey over from Ireland and this behaviour is a response to that and new. Since it's very sporadic, it's clearly not yet an ingrained habit.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I doubt that this is the first time that the horse has done this.

If the horse was to be kept, then by all means manage it. But to be sold on? No.

 

[Shilasdair]

I think it is cruel to stop a horse habituated to it, but I don't agree that it is cruel to stop a horse from becoming habituated to it as long as everything is being done to remove the reasons why it is trying to start.

I don't agree with this. It is entirely possible that the horse started ulcers because of the journey over from Ireland and this behaviour is a response to that and new. Since it's very sporadic, it's clearly not yet an ingrained habit.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree - as I'm never going to believe that crib collars are anything other than barbaric, in any circumstances.

When I was young I remember seeing a Cappuchin monkey, alone and miserable, in a pet shop. It was advertised as 'Good with children, never bites!' The reason was that it had had its teeth pulled out. Crib collars are the same to me.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

I wouldn't use a crib collar in a million years if you paid me! Horrible, vile contraptions.

I see cribbing like smoking. It is a vice that you can lesson and reduce with the right circumstances by decreasing the stress levels so the need to do it is not as great. Whether that is a change of diet, routine, work, medication etc that is what you will need to suss out.

We have a 3yo filly in the yard, she had shown the tendency to try to crib but didn't get the idea of it. When she swopped to the other yard I specifically requested she stayed away from the couple of horses that do crib. They didn't listen and put her next door to a chronic cribber. And 12 hours later she wouldn't leave the door or feed manger alone with the constant cribbing. It could have been avoided or at least lessened or postponed but alas not. Poor lass.

 

[ycbm]

I'm happy with my reasoning. The horse has been seen to crib three times in several days after a very stressful journey and move of home, it's unlikely yet to be addicted to the endorphin release. For the sake of its future health provided every possible effort is made to alleviate whatever has caused it to want to start cribbing I would, for a short term only, do whatever it took within reason to prevent the addiction taking hold.
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[Emsmacx]

I managed to get some aloe Vera juice today, so got some of that into him. I’ll monitor him over the next few days and see if it makes a difference. I need to then make a decision on whether I try to return him or not. He’s a lovely boy, but he really wasn’t cheap and I’m worrying about re-sale.

 

[TPO]

I managed to get some aloe Vera juice today, so got some of that into him. I’ll monitor him over the next few days and see if it makes a difference. I need to then make a decision on whether I try to return him or not. He’s a lovely boy, but he really wasn’t cheap and I’m worrying about re-sale.

I dont know what I'm talking about but I wont let that stop me ?

Just if you are considering returning him I would act sooner rather than later or at least get advice on how to go about it correctly.

Again I've no experience with this situation but I cant imagine it looks great if you keep the horse for a week before potentially pursuing a return/refund or that you are trying to self treat.

I'm not saying you're wrong in trying to make the horse more comfortable but I'd just be careful/get professional legal advice

 

[Emsmacx]

I dont know what I'm talking about but I wont let that stop me ?

Just if you are considering returning him I would act sooner rather than later or at least get advice on how to go about it correctly.

Again I've no experience with this situation but I cant imagine it looks great if you keep the horse for a week before potentially pursuing a return/refund or that you are trying to self treat.

I'm not saying you're wrong in trying to make the horse more comfortable but I'd just be careful/get professional legal advice

Thank you. I did contact the seller within the first couple of days to inform him of the issue, and said i'd give it a few more days to see if he settled. He's still doing it though, so i am going to contact him again.

 

[Annagain]

I think it is cruel to stop a horse habituated to it, but I don't agree that it is cruel to stop a horse from becoming habituated to it as long as everything is being done to remove the reasons why it is trying to start.




I don't agree with this. It is entirely possible that the horse started ulcers because of the journey over from Ireland and this behaviour is a response to that and new. Since it's very sporadic, it's clearly not yet an ingrained habit.

You don't know he isn't habituated to it though, do you? It's possible that he's started now due to him being unsettled but it's also possible (even likely) that this is a behaviour that's been going on for longer.

I bite my nails occasionally - when I'm nervous or stressed (usually watching Wales play rugby!). It's very sporadic but still a habit I can't stop unless I remove the cause. The bitter nail varnish stuff doesn't stop me in the way a collar doesn't stop a horse cribbing.

 

[ycbm]

You don't know he isn't habituated to it though, do you?

Yes. The OP says he has been seen to do it 3 times in the course of several days. That isn't a horse habituated to the endorphin release. It's a casual smoker, not a nicotine addict.
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[ycbm]

a habit I can't stop unless I remove the cause.

I was very clear in my responses that the cause must be removed.

 

[Annagain]

I was very clear in my responses that the cause must be removed.

I appreciate that but the point I was making was that the deterrent - in the horse's case a collar and in mine the bitter nail varnish - doesn't necessarily stop the issue. I've seen horses with collars still able to crib, it makes the cribbing painful but it doesn't necessarily stop them.

 

[ycbm]

I appreciate that but the point I was making was that the deterrent - in the horse's case a collar and in mine the bitter nail varnish - doesn't necessarily stop the issue. I've seen horses with collars still able to crib, it makes the cribbing painful but it doesn't necessarily stop them.

Which is exactly why I said the the cause must be addressed before this becomes a persistent habit fueled by the endorphin rush and no longer by the underlying cause that started it off.

ETA I liken it to smoking. Nobody starts smoking because they crave nicotine. They start because others do it, for something to do with their hands, to put something in their mouth instead of food, etc. But you can remove all those and an addicted smoker will continue to crave a smoke because by then they need the nicotine. From what I have read there is still time to stop this horse becoming a hardened smoker, and for the sake of his future health for a short time only and providing that the triggers have been removed I would do whatever it took to stop it before the chemical addiction takes hold.
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