New horse demonstrating his 'quirk'. Opinions welcomed!

whorls said:
How long ago was he diagnosed with DJD in his stifles? Just wondering whether there have been any changes since the initial diagnosis... ?
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He's never been officially diagnosed - this was just the opinion of his previous previous owner, who was a vet. He hasn't got any stiffer in the ensuing time, but its on the list for further investigation. I'm actually working on getting him used as a case study for a machine that has great results on horses with chronic joint issues - and if that doesn't happen - I'll get him treated anyway!!
 
be positive said:
I think it was memory of his discomfort during the time he really changed shape while we were getting new saddles sorted and he just needed a firm hand to remind him how to behave himself.
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That's almost exactly what his previous owner said - in slightly more fruity language. Basically, that she thought it was him being neurotic and a kick up the arris might be just the thing!! I'm keen to rule out pain, but it was interesting that he packed it in when I said No earlier today!
 
Auslander said:
I'm pulling a few strings to see if I can have a chat with an equine mobility specialist vet - the perks of working in the sector, and am trying to get through to my vet for a chat. I will get to the bottom of this - but firstly, I'm going to get him out in the field with another horse - he's officially finished his quarantine period today.
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I had the perks of living on the same yard as the ortho vet but I've moved now sadly. Can still text her though thank goodness. It is handy isn't it?
 
Read this all with great interest I have a 4yr old that does EXACTLY the same. Only way I have prevented him form broncing off with me though is to ride him in draw reins. I can lunge as much as i like prior to mounting but if i try and mount without draw reins head goes down back comes up and we do a nice impression of a western!

This morning I thought i'd be brave and attempt to hack him without the draw reins. I always lean over his back before mounting, touch all his sides as he's a bit of a faff. I had barely got my tummy in the saddle today when he flew across the yard up'n n down'n (with me still clung onto breast plate). He knee'd me in the bum so i had a dead arse and leg and couldn;t attempt remount immediately so i lunged him for 20 mins then got his draw reing on and the let me mount him fine we didn't hack i got straight back off praised him and put him away i just wanted to prove a point tha he WOULD let me get on.

He was proffessionally broken at a well known yard in the area and his owner said that even the girls that broke him were a bit weary of him. He is one of those that given any opportunity to take the p**s then he will use it although generally he is a lovely boy to be around.

He has had all relevant checks it just seems to be his "quirk"
 
Auslander - cant quote on phone but would be interested to hear about the new treatment.
Hope you dont mind me butting in, it was just a thought I had when reading your initial post :) should have realised you were already on to that! Good luck finding out what's causing these little outbursts.
 
bunnereeny said:
Read this all with great interest I have a 4yr old that does EXACTLY the same. Only way I have prevented him form broncing off with me though is to ride him in draw reins. I can lunge as much as i like prior to mounting but if i try and mount without draw reins head goes down back comes up and we do a nice impression of a western!

This morning I thought i'd be brave and attempt to hack him without the draw reins. I always lean over his back before mounting, touch all his sides as he's a bit of a faff. I had barely got my tummy in the saddle today when he flew across the yard up'n n down'n (with me still clung onto breast plate). He knee'd me in the bum so i had a dead arse and leg and couldn;t attempt remount immediately so i lunged him for 20 mins then got his draw reing on and the let me mount him fine we didn't hack i got straight back off praised him and put him away i just wanted to prove a point tha he WOULD let me get on.

He was proffessionally broken at a well known yard in the area and his owner said that even the girls that broke him were a bit weary of him. He is one of those that given any opportunity to take the p**s then he will use it although generally he is a lovely boy to be around.

He has had all relevant checks it just seems to be his "quirk"
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Is it wrong that this made me giggle!! The mental picture...

While I was working on a VERY posh dressage yard in Switzerland, we had a 4yr old Shire in to be schooled. As he was English, and I was English, they gave him to me to ride. I went to get on him, got one foot in the stirrup, and was about to put my right leg over his back, when he bogged off round the school broncing (impressive skills for a big carthorse!) I was damn sure I wasn't letting go and getting stomped on by his enormous dinner plate feet,but couldn't get my leg over, so I grabbed a handful of mane and hung on for several circuits of the school - like a rock climber!

I have never seen so many serious Swiss people rolling about laughing!!
 
Auslander said:
Is it wrong that this made me giggle!! The mental picture...

While I was working on a VERY posh dressage yard in Switzerland, we had a 4yr old Shire in to be schooled. As he was English, and I was English, they gave him to me to ride. I went to get on him, got one foot in the stirrup, and was about to put my right leg over his back, when he bogged off round the school broncing (impressive skills for a big carthorse!) I was damn sure I wasn't letting go and getting stomped on by his enormous dinner plate feet,but couldn't get my leg over, so I grabbed a handful of mane and hung on for several circuits of the school - like a rock climber!

I have never seen so many serious Swiss people rolling about laughing!!
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That thought is now up there with "wobble and flop" as my favourite mental image associated with you :D

That is the only contribution I have to this thread, sorry. So not my field :o
 
whorls said:
Auslander - cant quote on phone but would be interested to hear about the new treatment.
Hope you dont mind me butting in, it was just a thought I had when reading your initial post :) should have realised you were already on to that! Good luck finding out what's causing these little outbursts.
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It's not particularly new - just not widely used yet. I'm a bit loath to mention it yet, purely because I've cheekily asked them if he can be a case study, and not had a Yes or No yet. Kinda want to have it in the bag before I go shouting my mouth off, so as not to kibosh it! I'll PM you though!
 
Auslander said:
He's a sensitive soul - for a carthorse!!
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That'll be the Shire IME - I've never met a shirexTB that wasn't sensitive/had a quirk, but I've loved each and every one! Awesome horses! Do be aware that if you ever need to sedate him, that he is likely to only need a tiny amount - I've known 2mls of sedalin have a 17.2 shirexTB nearly on the ground.

Sorry, not much help to your current problems.
 
Auslander said:
Is it wrong that this made me giggle!! The mental picture...

While I was working on a VERY posh dressage yard in Switzerland, we had a 4yr old Shire in to be schooled. As he was English, and I was English, they gave him to me to ride. I went to get on him, got one foot in the stirrup, and was about to put my right leg over his back, when he bogged off round the school broncing (impressive skills for a big carthorse!) I was damn sure I wasn't letting go and getting stomped on by his enormous dinner plate feet,but couldn't get my leg over, so I grabbed a handful of mane and hung on for several circuits of the school - like a rock climber!

I have never seen so many serious Swiss people rolling about laughing!!
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haha well usually if he is going to try it he at least wait till my arse is in the saddle unfortunately i did fly off to the side with the first bronc but stubborness set in n i thought "ur not getting rid of me that easily u liittle *****" so i clung on, safety wise i should have probably let go but i think if he completely got rid of me he'd try it every time and this is only the 2nd time in the month i've been riding him that he has done it.

he's just a complicated donkey lol
 
Proceed with caution is what I would say .
I would get a saddle check and get a good equine vet to have a look at his back a set of X-rays if apporiate would put your mind a rest and mild KS can be well managed now.
However I think some horses do have quirks that are based in memory and you just have to manage them I don't think it's always pain but it can be the memory of pain that's triggered sometimes.
I had one that had been difficult to back you could never have her stand to mount it had to be a moving start she had good days and bad days but I just had to accept I had to work round the issue .
Mind I was twenty then would not be so keen now.
 
When the YP arrived he did a similar thing. I used to have to squish him in a corner and keep a contact while I mounted and be ready with a stick or my knee to shove him back in if he tried to bog off. First time he did it he managed half a circuit of the school in that trot that only a pony can manage with sewing machine legs before rearing when I got him to stop (all minus stirrups :cool:). Now its a much more chilled out affair that normally involves me leaving the reins on his neck untill I'm sorted and ready to move off but if he is stressed he can some times revert back to his old ways.
 
Sportznight said:
That'll be the Shire IME - I've never met a shirexTB that wasn't sensitive/had a quirk, but I've loved each and every one! Awesome horses! Do be aware that if you ever need to sedate him, that he is likely to only need a tiny amount - I've known 2mls of sedalin have a 17.2 shirexTB nearly on the ground.

Sorry, not much help to your current problems.
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I know - was kidding!! He definitely gets that Shire-ish worried look abotu him when things are all getting too much for him!! He's such a sweet horse - not an ounce of malice in him, but he's quite large to be trying to sit on my lap when he gets scared!

Will bear that in mind if he needs sedating!! Thanks
 
Goldenstar said:
Proceed with caution is what I would say .
I would get a saddle check and get a good equine vet to have a look at his back a set of X-rays if apporiate would put your mind a rest and mild KS can be well managed now.
However I think some horses do have quirks that are based in memory and you just have to manage them I don't think it's always pain but it can be the memory of pain that's triggered sometimes.
I had one that had been difficult to back you could never have her stand to mount it had to be a moving start she had good days and bad days but I just had to accept I had to work round the issue .
Mind I was twenty then would not be so keen now.
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I will be careful!! At least I know what to expect, and tbh - he doesn't do anything that quickly - and I'm pretty handy at sticking on anyway (courtesy of aforementioned 2yo racehorses!) Saddle and vet check on the to do straight away list - and if he does just turn out to be quirky, I can live with it! Just want to absolutely rule out pain first.
 
dafthoss said:
When the YP arrived he did a similar thing. I used to have to squish him in a corner and keep a contact while I mounted and be ready with a stick or my knee to shove him back in if he tried to bog off. First time he did it he managed half a circuit of the school in that trot that only a pony can manage with sewing machine legs before rearing when I got him to stop (all minus stirrups :cool:). Now its a much more chilled out affair that normally involves me leaving the reins on his neck untill I'm sorted and ready to move off but if he is stressed he can some times revert back to his old ways.
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Corner sounds like a plan - I shall wedge him into it, and sit there singing songs til he remembers to breathe next time!!
 
Sportznight said:
That'll be the Shire IME - I've never met a shirexTB that wasn't sensitive/had a quirk, but I've loved each and every one! Awesome horses! Do be aware that if you ever need to sedate him, that he is likely to only need a tiny amount - I've known 2mls of sedalin have a 17.2 shirexTB nearly on the ground.

Sorry, not much help to your current problems.
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Sorry, I just twigged he's a Draught x. Doh.

In my "bad horse business" in my previous life Clyde/Shire/Belgian x's were over represented with bucking/bogging off issues, oddly enough. (Tbf, there are a lot of them - they fill the niche cobs do here and we don't really have those.) One issue I'm fairly sure of was saddle fit. Many of them had "driving/pulling horse" backs rather than "riding horse" backs and it's notoriously difficult to get saddles to REALLY fit them, especially if they change in shape. I met quite a few who started to show the behaviour after they'd been backed for a year or so and just starting "proper" work.

I do think there is often a "big horse equals brave horse" mindset at work, too, and people, especially inexperienced riders miss the signs of stress they might be more sympathetic to in a lighter horse. For some reason people assume draught horses should be more stoic and put up with more crap than other types - untrue and unfair in my experience! Shires especially seem to be big worriers!

I can't say to KS or related as that fashion had/has not hit so none of the suspects I met were ever x-rayed. I will say though, the "non riding horse shape" might make me a bit suspicious now I know a bit more about it. Many of the ones I knew worked a bit hollow in their backs but without the tell tale U or V shape of hollow TB types so perhaps it didn't seem as "bad" to their riders. In this horse's case that would seem unusual, since he's had such good training, but maybe he was allowed to move in a way at his loan home that's compromised him somehow?

I'm also a bit curious about the DJD in his stifles. Did they not x-ray then? What were his symptoms?

Also, for a really out in left field question does he have a noseband on? Can you try with it off? (Not loose, off.) I've done quite a few "exploding horses" and have my own bizzaro system that I can't begin to explain here but that is a fairly important part of it, believe it or not!
 
Interesting! I've always thought of Shire permutations as being quite sensitive souls, and I have been conscious from the word Go that he's one of life's worriers. I certainly wouldn't push him about like I did with my last horse, who was a similarly large chap, but warmblood. Good to hear that people who know the draft breeds all say that they can be troubled souls!

In terms of shape, he is, to my eye, riding shaped, rather than pulling shape although you can see the Shire in him when he prats about on the lunge, so there could well be something in that! He isn't your classic advanced dressage "get on, pick up the reins, straight into an outline" sort - he needs really riding up to the bit, and you can really feel him coming up under the saddle when you ask him to work correctly.

DJD wise, he was assessed by an independent vet as he was stiff pulling out of the box, who identified inflammation around the stifle joint, and said "He has DJD". As far as I know, from that moment on - he had the DJD badge, was slowly warmed up for longer, they stopped doing piaffe and passage with him, and he was on a devils claw supplement. He's had regular physio and chiro treatments, and was winning and being placed at PSG, so they never felt he was in need of anything more in terms of investigation. I can see why - he was a schoolmaster, not one of their serious competition horses. He was sound, and seemed comfortable, so their management was working for them. As he is my only horse, I am more than happy to go at it in a more in depth way, and get him treated/medicated as appropriate. He's on a really good joint supplement - which I'm sure is helping, and has more turnout than he had previously.

I chuckled about the noseband! He is in a borrowed bridle at the moment, which has no noseband - and very silly he looks as well!! He is used to working in either a double or a snaffle - and has a very nice mouth.
 
Lol bless him I bet the bridle looks ridiculously fine on him - the cheek pieces are full but the headpiece is cob, and was all bought with a 3 year old roo in mind for showing!!
The only useful help I can ad to this thread is that I use a mctimoney based in Bourne end if you want her number?
 
ecrozier said:
Lol bless him I bet the bridle looks ridiculously fine on him - the cheek pieces are full but the headpiece is cob, and was all bought with a 3 year old roo in mind for showing!!
The only useful help I can ad to this thread is that I use a mctimoney based in Bourne end if you want her number?
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Ooh! Yes please!!

He does indeed look very silly in the bridle!!
 
fairly irrelevant I suspect OP, but...

On the Shire aspect, I read something somewhere which I thought was really interesting. In Aus like in Canada (I presume TS?) Shire or Clydie X's play the role of cobs, and some one was talking about how 'heavies' are not really as quiet as many people expect and so not always the best 'beginner horse'.

Someone rightly (imho) pointed out that they were bred to work - quite hard and for long hours. Which not only requires the physical build to do so but also the right mental attitude - i.e. a willingness to work or liveliness, and a certain amount of mental grit to keep going at the end of the day.
Which is why people who buy full or crosses as pleasure hacks can find they have a rather lively horse on their hands becasue they are not getting the work/stimulation they need.

I realise there are exceptions to everything and in general they are going to be quieter than you average TB but still thought it was an interesting point.
 
Festive_Felicitations said:
fairly irrelevant I suspect OP, but...

On the Shire aspect, I read something somewhere which I thought was really interesting. In Aus like in Canada (I presume TS?) Shire or Clydie X's play the role of cobs, and some one was talking about how 'heavies' are not really as quiet as many people expect and so not always the best 'beginner horse'.

Someone rightly (imho) pointed out that they were bred to work - quite hard and for long hours. Which not only requires the physical build to do so but also the right mental attitude - i.e. a willingness to work or liveliness, and a certain amount of mental grit to keep going at the end of the day.
Which is why people who buy full or crosses as pleasure hacks can find they have a rather lively horse on their hands becasue they are not getting the work/stimulation they need.

I realise there are exceptions to everything and in general they are going to be quieter than you average TB but still thought it was an interesting point.
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That all makes sense - there's certainly no way I'd put a beginner on him!! I'm loath to put anyone on him at the moment really, but I'd like to observe from the ground, to see what it looks like, as opposed to how it feels!

He's not even remotely silly once he's had his little moment - just a nice, well schooled, willing horse. Need to get to the bottom of this!
 
Something potentially brilliant has happened today! I mentioned earlier that he was possibly suitable as a case study for a company that I do some work for. Well - I had a very interesting conversation today, and it looks like it may be all systems go. I'll spill more beans when I know it's definitely happening, and will can also, if people are interested, do a semi live feed of how the diagnostics/therapy go. There is talk of using a combination of two different machines on him, and it sounds like it could be a really interesting process!
 
Ok, we have a horse that did very similar to this. He never felt like he was scared, he was just telling you he was uncomfortable. His thing was to hump his back, squish his body up really tight and walk like he was on tip toes, he was especially worse when starting to go downhills. It turned out he had pedal bone rotation in all 4 feet!
I do believe that horses do try and tell you in their own way that they hurt somewhere, or that something is wrong. Our boy was referred to a vets where they do Syntography (I hope that is correct?) They inject radioactive stuff into him and he then had a full body imagery thing done. It showed up the rotation and hot spots in his hocks.

I hope you can find out what is wrong with you chap, best of luck.
 
I bought an elderly dressage schoolmaster (18yrs when I got him) who did this - exactly as you describe - with periods when he was fine and others when he wasn't. We eventually came to the conclusion that it was related to the arthritis in his various joints.

Feeding Devils Claw seemed to improve things. But after a couple of years I loaned him as a light hack - and he now (aged 23yrs) never, ever does it with his novicey, hacking loaner... but he's only ridden twice a week and very lightly at that.
 
This horse just gets more and more special! I have just got off the phone to his original owner, as part of my quest to find out more about him.
She told me that he was selected as a potential squad horse for the 2008 Para Olympic squad, although he didn't go because he failed the 5 stage vetting. He must be some kind of dude to get that far through the selection process though!
Now have a lot more info about his stifle problem, and I also know that he was never a problem to get on, despite the physical problems he had- so something happened to him at some point to make him do what he does.
I have high hopes for the treatment programme he is going to embark on - but even if he isn't able to do more than light work, he's got a home for life. Love him to bits!

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I'll be very curious to know what you're up to. I love a bit of weird horsey science! :)

Also, food for thought, there is another thread up about sheepskin pads and horses with iffy backs, and a number of them about horses with EPSM. Might be worth a read through to see if any of it resonates.
 
TarrSteps said:
I'll be very curious to know what you're up to. I love a bit of weird horsey science! :)

Also, food for thought, there is another thread up about sheepskin pads and horses with iffy backs, and a number of them about horses with EPSM. Might be worth a read through to see if any of it resonates.
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I'll be taking copious notes, loads of pics, vid, etc etc - so there'll be no shortage of geeky info! I'm fascinated to see the thermal images - just hope the whole horse doesn't light up like a christmas tree!

R sheepskin pads - that made me grin! I'm a New Zealander by heritage, so as far as I am concerned, sheepskin is the bees knees. I've got a cousin flying in from NZ in a bout 10 days time, and in her luggage, there will be a sheepskin that I asked her to pick up about a week ago! They are very easy to turn into half pads, and the quality is fantastic.

Will be looking very closely at the EPSM threads - no avenue will be left unexplored!
 
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