New Horse Issues

[Christmas Crumpet]

I bought a lovely 8 year old mare 10 days ago who was 5 stage vetted and flew through. Only advisories were a bit of thrush and squaring off her hind toes because she was “lazy” at home. I didn’t notice her dragging her hind feet when I tried her as I took her autumn hunting and she was quite on her toes.

Since bringing her home it has become apparent she really does drag her hind feet a lot. Trotting on exercise, in the field and even when mooching across the yard. She’s already squared off her hind feet after being shod last Monday.

She is weak behind and I don’t think has probably ever done any schooling but it’s a major worry. When she trots she feels quite dribbly like the back end isn’t attached to the front end. She constantly rests a hind leg in the stable.

I’m having my vet our to look at her to see if there is a problem or whether she’s just weak. She did live on a hill in her last home and I’m just wondering whether a problem is coming to light now she’s stables at night and out in a flat field.

I’m slightly at a loss to know what’s best to do. She wasn’t cheap, she passed a 5 stage vetting but can I send her back if my vet proves there is a problem that wasn’t picked up on the vetting? She’s perfect in every way other than the severe toe dragging. It was a private seller.

Any thoughts gratefully received.

 

[IrishMilo]

Look up the Misrepresentation Act 1967, but in short, it's going to be very difficult for you to have a legal leg to stand on.

 

[ycbm]

You can't send her back unless you can prove the seller knew or get a drug test on the bloods. I'm not sure you would have anything against the vet either unless they did something stupid like fail to do flexion tests. You might have a case against the vet if something is found like spavins and they failed to warn you that squared toes are symptomatic of spavins as well as weakness.

Hopefully she is just weak (search for Skylla to see a very good example of a weak horse who looked lame even to the vet, but came right with physio and the right work) and will strengthen up quickly.
.

 

[misst]

My guess is unless the previous owners are happy to have her back then you are on a sticky wicket. Was it a vet of your choice doing the vetting or the previous owners vet? I know it should be an independent vet but sometimes things aren't done to form.
If she passed a five stage independent vetting and something was missed your beef will be with the vet not the previous owner.
I hope this is a small issue and easily sorted .

 

[Christmas Crumpet]

It was the previous owners vet but the practice had never seen the horse. I used them simply because I was recommended them by a lot of people in the area.

I do know the owners and I’m sure I can talk to them but if she’s not fit for purpose due to something major coming to light surely I have a right to send her back?

I don’t want to send her back unless I really have to because she’s pretty much perfect in every other respect! But she was enough money that I can’t afford to throw the money away if she’s properly not right.

 

[misst]

I don't think you can send her back unless you can prove they concealed something deliberately. However the fact that the hind feet issue was mentioned it would seem that they probably didn't try to conceal much. The argument would be with the vet who did the vetting rather than them though I think it is not supposed to be ethical to vet for an existing client.
The sooner you speak to them the sooner you might get to the bottom of things but I don't think they are obliged to take her back - that is what the vetting was for.

 

[SOS]

A vetting is a snapshot of time, I.e the horse was fit for purpose at 2pm that Tuesday. It doesn’t matter if it’s not a week later unless you can prove it was pre existing but that’s very difficult.

In this case your complaint is the horse is dragging its hind feet, it is pre existing but was found and passed the vetting and you then bought the horse knowing this. I think you have zero comeback I am afraid.

If you know the sellers then you surely know the horse has been sound for its job for X amount of time? Improve the weakness and it will hopefully stay sounder for longer!

 

[Gloi]

There's a chance that if the thrush is painful in whichever feet it is in the horse isn't moving as well as it could be. Get on top of that asap

 

[doodle]

My ex boss bought 2 horses (In separate occations) who turned out to both have issues. Both were 5 stage vetted. Both times even after legal intervention the vets said horse was perfectly sound when they vetted it. She had no come back.

 

[AmyMay]

but if she’s not fit for purpose due to something major coming to light surely I have a right to send her back?

It was a private sale, so your only recourse would be through the courts if you could prove that the sellers had misrepresented the horse.

 

[ycbm]

if she’s not fit for purpose due to something major coming to light surely I have a right to send her back?

.

Absolutely not. A private seller who sells in good faith and hides nothing has no obligation to take the horse back.

Your quarrel is with the vet, if they failed to warn you that squared toes can be symptomatic of something serious, and if she does turn out to have spavins/psd/stifle issues/SI strain.

To have the right to return, the horse needs to be bought from a dealer.
.

 

[ester]

As stated fit for purpose only applies to dealers
'not as described' applies to private sellers.

Did you bring the squaring off of the toes up with the vet prior to the vetting?

 

[Christmas Crumpet]

I didn’t know she dragged her hind feet until the vetting when the vet told me and said it’s just because she’s lazy. I took her autumn hunting to try her and she was quite on her toes so I didn’t notice it then.

 

[ycbm]

I didn’t know she dragged her hind feet until the vetting when the vet told me and said it’s just because she’s lazy. I took her autumn hunting to try her and she was quite on her toes so I didn’t notice it then.

You need a diagnosis. If that diagnosis says she has an issue other than laziness/weakness which causes squared off toes, then you can claim against the vet who told you it was just laziness.

Hopefully they will have been right.
.

 

[Christmas Crumpet]

I’d rather not send her back as she’s lovely but if it is a problem, I will need to do something. And if she just dragged her feet at trot I’d feel a lot better than I do seeing her dragging them at walk across the yard and in the field. I’ve never seen another horse do that ever!

 

[ycbm]

Your route is through the vet who did the vetting. Are the squared toes noted on the vetting report? What does it say? Your case against them, if you need to take one, is going to hinge around it.
.

 

[Sossigpoker]

Unfortunately you will find it very difficult to claim against the vet as they will just say there was no toe dragging at the time of the vetting.
Toe dragging often indicates stifle problems, I wouldn't ride the horse until you've had that investigated .

 

[ester]

A vet saying 'because she is lazy at home' when they have never seen the horse before does seem a bit odd. How would they know?

 

[BBP]

Sue Dyson told me that a marked bilateral hindlimb toe drag = a bilateral hindlimb lameness. I do see it as a problem. BBP drags his toes in all paces and has a very long history of unsoundness. He looks amazing when his adrenaline is up, so people think that because he *can* flex properly doing that, then he must be lazy the rest of the time when he doesn’t. That said, I think the fault if there is one is with the vet not the seller for failing to recognise a problem with it and marking it as laziness.

As soon as anyone writes a horse off as lazy I dismiss them. As a human we might occasionally drag a foot, but it’s not an efficient movement pattern for a healthy body, so if I saw a human dragging their feet every stride I would assume they had a problem somewhere.

 

[Christmas Crumpet]

Arranging a vet appointment this morning...

 

[Sossigpoker]

Sue Dyson told me that a marked bilateral hindlimb toe drag = a bilateral hindlimb lameness. I do see it as a problem. BBP drags his toes in all paces and has a very long history of unsoundness. He looks amazing when his adrenaline is up, so people think that because he *can* flex properly doing that, then he must be lazy the rest of the time when he doesn’t. That said, I think the fault if there is one is with the vet not the seller for failing to recognise a problem with it and marking it as laziness.

As soon as anyone writes a horse off as lazy I dismiss them. As a human we might occasionally drag a foot, but it’s not an efficient movement pattern for a healthy body, so if I saw a human dragging their feet every stride I would assume they had a problem somewhere.

My 4.5 year old looked sound when he was charging around full of adrenaline. But once the adrenaline wore off he exhibited marked toe drag and also circumvention of the left hind. He had stifle OCD.

 

[Trouper]

You need a diagnosis - we can speculate all day long on what might be wrong but without a definitive diagnosis you can't make progress on any front. I, too, would be concerned about a vet who told me a horse was lazy - how long did he see her work for in a vetting to be able to diagnose "lazy" - or was he just taking the owner's word for it?
My last horse was "a bit stumbly" in his vetting - owner told vet he was overdue the farrier and vet accepted it. 15 months later and after every examination known to man I had to PTS. Hopefully, you just have a weak horse who needs the right work and management to come good - but you need the vet first.

 

[BBP]

My 4.5 year old looked sound when he was charging around full of adrenaline. But once the adrenaline wore off he exhibited marked toe drag and also circumvention of the left hind. He had stifle OCD.

I have this issue every time I take mine to the clinic, he is so full of adrenaline that he trots up like a dream. It’s a completely different picture to what I see at home.

 

[icee]

fingers crossed for you, what a stressful situation to be in.

how do you know that they [the old owners] didn't use that previous vet before for the horse you've bought? you only have their say so...you're meant to use a completely different vet irrespective of practice (or so I believe) else its a conflict of interest?

some vets are just lazy- my friend sold a pony, and the YM supervised the vetting with the vet. the vet watched the pony be trotted up and down etc and said 'there's nothing wrong with it' and passed it!! (for a 5* vetting.. i wish i was kidding).

you just can't believe anyone these days. the best thing to do would be keep a record of everything- have you expressed any concerns to the old owner? if so, do so over message so you've got it in writing.

 

[Christmas Crumpet]

The vet assured me he hadn't seen the horse since the owners had had it and it is written on the vet certificate so I have to take their word for it. The owners are genuinely nice people so I'm hoping we can discuss it sensibly when the vet has been. I'm waiting to hear back from the vet as to when they can come.

The horse is weak there is no doubt about it. I can't imagine she's ever been asked to work properly hence why she dribbles along but she is willing. Its the most rubbish situation to be in because I bought a proper horse for proper money having normally always bought things that are that much older and then they don't last. She was supposed to be the long term horse.

I just have a very bad feeling about it all. She is such a sweet horse who has barely put a foot wrong since she's arrived. Clearly it was too good to be true!

But I can't do anything until the vet has been and won't contact the old owners until I have a proper diagnosis. There's no point in telling them I think there's something wrong but have no idea what it is!! I am leaning towards stifles/back seeing as she passed the flexions & lunging on a hard circle.

 

[Dyllymoo]

I had similar where a vet wrote "canter lead incorrect due to green - a schooling issue". Insurance refused to insure her whole back end. she was diagnosed with a whole host of issues in her back end a bit later on, SI and PSD. I had no come back and no insurance.

I'm not saying your mare has serious issues but it does make me think there is something not quite right. Hopefully the vet can give you some answers and go from there.

 

[Polos Mum]

If you want a proper investigation then you're best off taking her in so they can nerve block / x ray etc. The vet coming to you will be limited in what assessments they can do.
I would get her booked in with your vets there.
I would also call the vetting vet and ask them to run the bloods that they took to look for drugs in her system at the time of vetting. You are their client and they have no right to tell the sellers of your request.
I am sure the sellers are lovely people but I would want that ruled out if she has changed a lot in only a week.

 

[oldie48]

I understand that there are many reasons for a horse toe dragging and not all are lameness issues so I'd try not to worry until your vet has been. If she's weak and not been asked to work correctly then the toe dragging could be related as indeed could be her shoeing. I don't know what sort of work she's been in and what sort of work you want her to do but a friend bought a nice horse that had only ever been used as a hunter, never been in a school and tbh couldn't canter a circle. He toe dragged and pulled himself along on the forehand. A year later after she'd schooled him regularly he was a different horse and a different shape, toe dragging had gone and he could canter round an arena all day. I hope this is the case with your horse. Good luck.

 

[Christmas Crumpet]

I understand that there are many reasons for a horse toe dragging and not all are lameness issues so I'd try not to worry until your vet has been. If she's weak and not been asked to work correctly then the toe dragging could be related as indeed could be her shoeing. I don't know what sort of work she's been in and what sort of work you want her to do but a friend bought a nice horse that had only ever been used as a hunter, never been in a school and tbh couldn't canter a circle. He toe dragged and pulled himself along on the forehand. A year later after she'd schooled him regularly he was a different horse and a different shape, toe dragging had gone and he could canter round an arena all day. I hope this is the case with your horse. Good luck.

Thank you so much for the above - I needed to hear something that wasn't entirely doom & gloom although I thank everyone for their input!! Vet is coming tomorrow and she's a good mate which will help if its awful!! The mare does need to put on condition, she's hauled herself along with her front end for god knows how long and never been schooled. I really like her which is unusual for me with new horses! She's kind and so sensible to hack out esp in heavy traffic. Doesn't bat an eyelid at any new place she gets taken to. Only minor issue is she's a bit nappy about leaving home on her own but we are working on this!!

Will report back tomorrow once vet been.

 

[stormox]

It may be a weakness, or there may be a problem with her back. My friend had a horse that started squaring off his hind shoes, farrier said to get the physio, 2 treatments of the muscle behind the saddle and he's fine now.
I would make sure that when you ride you do everything in your power to get her hindlegs underneath her and build her up with polework etc.