New horse lame update

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Ceriann

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So newbie who was shod on 15th May and was visibly on near fore twice (circa a week apart) was seen by second vet last week and she was lame on offside fore (completely sound on near fore). Nerve block pinpointed lameness in the foot for offside fore. She became visibly lame only after repeated trotting on a hard surface.

So what to do next - vet is booked to come back out on Wednesday and block coffin joint in offside fore and then x-ray. Part of me thinks I should hold off doing this and perhaps look at the balance of her feet etc. Whilst she passed a 5 * vetting, vet who did it said my farrier should start working on her fronts to bring back the toe and address the beginnings of an underrun heel. Farrier was aware of this when he shod her and put clips on etc.

I took some pretty bad photos of feet a week or so ago - I've taken what I think are better ones after looking at rocket blog. I've also read a lot about underrun heels etc.

So any thoughts on pics below most appreciated - I am seriously considering just removing the shoes and working to get a better balance barefoot. Her feet are healthy and robust so I suspect she would cope quite well bare. Or do I just get her shod better, more support for her heels particularly?

Offside fore







Near fore





 
Hi, off fore is underrun, shoe not supporting the heel.

Honestly in your position I'd stop the veterinary investigation, get a top farrier to re do the set and see if that sorts it out.

If you carry on with the vets, not only will you have big bills, you'll also have a diagnosis of something wrong in the foot, which will devalue it and cause you insurance exclusions.

Check the shoeing first, if that isn't the problem, then return to the vet .

(Of course if the horse were mine I'd whip the shoes off and develop a stronger foot send I think that would resolve it, but it's not mine).
 
As above re doing shoeing trials before rushing into x-rays, joint investigations etc. although I'd keep the shoes on but trial change farrier/style of shoeing - no point imo in confounding a lameness by taking shoes off and getting bruising/sore feet from freshly unshod feet to confound...
 
nb _ in saying that she could have raging navicular/arthritis and the shoeing is just a red herring so depends on what approach you want to take I suppose! If there's nothing on x-ray you could then go back to feet/shoeing.
 
Have the shoes been taken off since the lameness started, she could simply have a corn judging by how short the shoes are, my first step would be to get them off and take a look it could be very obvious and easily sorted.
Whether you xray or not is down to you but I would do so you can have some idea of what is going on inside, I had 2 subtly lame a few years ago, the first had fairly extensive nerve blocks etc and the conclusion was bruising, resolved in a month.
The second was not really lame just not performing as he should, the vet took a look and was happy the horse was fine but I knew there was an issue so he did xrays and was totally amazed at the angles inside, from outside his feet looked fine, well developed heel, short toes, shod regularly but the farrier was always having to take the toes back more than he felt he should, so whatever is seen from outside does not give the full picture, he went barefoot for a while to address the issue.
Your mare may be similar her toes almost being pushed forward because of what is going on inside and the minor adjustment has just cause everything to become more unbalanced and a little inflamed.

I wouldn't throw everything at it at this stage as there really may be nothing wrong that cannot be resolved by a decent farrier and a basic set of xrays.
 
Andalucian said:
Hi, off fore is underrun, shoe not supporting the heel.

Honestly in your position I'd stop the veterinary investigation, get a top farrier to re do the set and see if that sorts it out.

If you carry on with the vets, not only will you have big bills, you'll also have a diagnosis of something wrong in the foot, which will devalue it and cause you insurance exclusions.

Check the shoeing first, if that isn't the problem, then return to the vet .

(Of course if the horse were mine I'd whip the shoes off and develop a stronger foot send I think that would resolve it, but it's not mine).
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I suspect I'm already there with the exclusions given the vet reports - assuming I don't take one of the farrier options and find she then presents totally sound.

Taking her bare foot is tempting but as Susie T says the resulting soreness fir the weeks post this could throw us off completely. I will def have her shoes off at some point - with my previous mare we had an annual shoe break (only shod in front).

My current farrier has until end of tomorrow to respond to my latest update - if not I have another lined up to take a look at her. This is the on,y time my current farrier has shod her so willing to at least have him see her again and consider options but he's been a little sensitive and keen to say it's def not the shoeing!
 
SusieT said:
nb _ in saying that she could have raging navicular/arthritis and the shoeing is just a red herring so depends on what approach you want to take I suppose! If there's nothing on x-ray you could then go back to feet/shoeing.
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This is the unknown - I've been massively unlucky with horses in the last few years but I can't help thinking I'd have to be seriously unlucky to buy a horse in work, passing a vetting for it to then show signs of arthritis/degenerative issues. It could of course simply be a case of old shoeing masking this and new shoeing irritating what is an underlying issue. Fact her near fore lameness has gone though (and she was trotted on a hard surface a lot on Friday for latest vet visit) suggests it might not be.
 
There is no harm in having basic front foot x rays taken by the vet, hopefully they will pinpoint any changes in shoeing needed, which you can then explain with farrier. A new one maybe?

X rays on my TB as a 5yo pinpointed that she needed shod in a different way, and quarter clips, short toes, and 4 week interval and she never went unsound again in front in her life...

Good luck..

Fiona
 
be positive said:
Have the shoes been taken off since the lameness started, she could simply have a corn judging by how short the shoes are, my first step would be to get them off and take a look it could be very obvious and easily sorted.
Whether you xray or not is down to you but I would do so you can have some idea of what is going on inside, I had 2 subtly lame a few years ago, the first had fairly extensive nerve blocks etc and the conclusion was bruising, resolved in a month.
The second was not really lame just not performing as he should, the vet took a look and was happy the horse was fine but I knew there was an issue so he did xrays and was totally amazed at the angles inside, from outside his feet looked fine, well developed heel, short toes, shod regularly but the farrier was always having to take the toes back more than he felt he should, so whatever is seen from outside does not give the full picture, he went barefoot for a while to address the issue.
Your mare may be similar her toes almost being pushed forward because of what is going on inside and the minor adjustment has just cause everything to become more unbalanced and a little inflamed.

I wouldn't throw everything at it at this stage as there really may be nothing wrong that cannot be resolved by a decent farrier and a basic set of xrays.
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When farrier came out when she was lame on near fore he took shoe off, had a good look (I assumed it was nail bind) but nothing to see. He put shoe back on.

When lame on near fore she was obviously lame in trot when ridden. Now lame on offside fore she didn't present until trotted up and down quite a bit on a hard surface but once lame it was very apparent. I imagine had I ridden her it would have been as obvious as on near fore.

With your horse with the 'hidden' issues, you say you went bare foot. How long did it take to sort the issue out and how did he take to being bare foot?
 
Much better pics :D

If she does have a bruise taking shoes off now won't necessarily help especially at this time of year, she is also a new horse to you and I while there are some improvements that could be made they are not bad looking feet (the heels are a bit underun, and I would like the hairline straighter). I would get someone else/better to shoe her (think I said that previously) and see how she is then, see what that tells you and think again if necessary.
 
Fiona said:
There is no harm in having basic front foot x rays taken by the vet, hopefully they will pinpoint any changes in shoeing needed, which you can then explain with farrier. A new one maybe?

X rays on my TB as a 5yo pinpointed that she needed shod in a different way, and quarter clips, short toes, and 4 week interval and she never went unsound again in front in her life...

Good luck..

Fiona
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Thank you - did yours present lame? Good to hear a positive result from this type of situation. Tbf to my farrier the shape of her feet is more the responsibility of the previous farrier but he may just not be right to fix it.
 
ester said:
Much better pics :D

If she does have a bruise taking shoes off now won't necessarily help especially at this time of year, she is also a new horse to you and I while there are some improvements that could be made they are not bad looking feet (the heels are a bit underun, and I would like the hairline straighter). I would get someone else/better to shoe her (think I said that previously) and see how she is then, see what that tells you and think again if necessary.
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Thanks for the reference to rockley blog (though I am now slightly obsessed with it) - I actually worked out how to get sensible pics. Think I need to take a breath, talk to vet (who I've only started using but I think is pretty good and user friendly re considering less investigative options) and go from there. I'm reacting a bit to my new perfect little mare being a bit broken and need to try and think about this sensibly.
 
I think ours was barefoot for about 6 months, part of the time was his end of season break then bringing back into work, I think he did then have 2 shoeings in bar, not heart, bar shoes to give the final push, his xrays were then much better and he was back in full work the following spring/ summer and performing confidently again, he was not mine and as an event horse staying barefoot was not an option the owners would have really considered at that time, he also had a 4 -5 week cycle for shoeing all the time he was here .
He was an older horse and had probably been badly shod for some time before coming here, although he passed the vetting he arrived with a very sore back which in hindsight came from the front feet not the badly fitting saddle he came with but it is not always easy to know where to start, like yours he had not been here long, was adapting to a new rider, was building up topline so we went round in circles as he was sound, doing his job well with just a niggle that despite looking good there was something going on, the vet thought I was mad asking for the feet to be xrayed as to his mind there was nothing likely to show.
 
They are better pictures you can see that the heals are under run and in my previous post I said the shoe looks too small it's not supporting the heal at all, maybe try a natural balance type shoe do away with toe clips so the shoe can be set further back to give support and allow the toe to come back, mine are shod this way and are never left beyond 6 weeks for shoeing. Over the years I have realised some farriers just don't cut the toe back enough and some horses cope with it better than others, some of the shod feet I have seen recently are terrible yet the horse is sound unbelievably.
 
I can't put pictures on here I have tried but am rubbish but if you want to see an example of how mine are shod I could email you some just pm me, it might just give you an idea to compare how they look.
 
I'm not surprised the horse is lame, quite apart from the unsupported under-run heels, the poor animal can't put its foot down flat. If you look at the pics of side on, standing, the foot is not down flat and in the picked up pic of the heels, you can see that the shoe is unlevel. FGS change your farrier.
Find a really good farrier, ask him to look at the horse shod and unshod and ask his opinion about leaving her barefoot, a good farrier will be able to help your horse and I bet will get her sound without vet intervention.
 
Just a thought but a friend went for a month with intermittently lame horse - had nerve blocks and xrays etc - all inconclusive and then an abscess appeared.
 
Thanks everyone so now have a plan. Vet coming out to do basic X-rays Wednesday (the quote I had was for all singing all dancing X-rays) - unless these show something sinister these will be shared with farrier so that she can be shod appropriately. I have spoken with existing farrier and another farrier so I have options re next steps.

Tbf to my existing farrier he did say his choice of shoe was limited as she had no foot to play with (barely any growth and potentially previous farrrier been quite keen when shoring her before sale) and he didn't want to make too drastic changes first time. I wish I'd taken pics of her old shoes - they were v small, no heel support at all, Quite thick and no clips (farrier said they were common in showing circles?). He did say that whilst it would involve some short term issues and wouldn't provide a simple fix, taking shoes off to allow feet to grow might be the best long term solution.

So plan in place - I just need her to not have some horrible hidden degenerative issues with her feet. I will update post Wednesday.
 
I did wonder about the ml balance on the heels as pas picked up on but wondered if it might be the pic.
The response that the farrier was limited on shoe choices that meant short shoeing was the best option is just odd.
We are very used to clips I don't think they are always a good thing.
 
I would get a basic set of X-rays and see where you get .
You also need to get a really good farrier on the job get advice from the best equine vet you can .
 
ester said:
I did wonder about the ml balance on the heels as pas picked up on but wondered if it might be the pic.
The response that the farrier was limited on shoe choices that meant short shoeing was the best option is just odd.
We are very used to clips I don't think they are always a good thing.
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Sorry what's ml balance (though I did get what pas said and will be checking tonight whether it's just the angle)?

I'm talking to another farrier tonight too so will go from there.

I'm just crossing everything it's not something grim!
 
Think you have a good plan in place, only other thing I'd maybe do is to get her onto a barefoot type diet, if you haven't already. That way at the very least the farrier will have more foot to work with and if you do end up taking shoes off, she will have better nutrition begun.
 
Goldenstar said:
I would get a basic set of X-rays and see where you get .
You also need to get a really good farrier on the job get advice from the best equine vet you can .
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That's the plan - farrier is new but I really like him and he's working with me and was happy to discuss next steps and pare back to basic X-rays. He's a breath of fresh air compared to the last lot I've used. Even after 2 years of being at current home I still feel so new in the context of a decent network.
 
AnShanDan said:
Think you have a good plan in place, only other thing I'd maybe do is to get her onto a barefoot type diet, if you haven't already. That way at the very least the farrier will have more foot to work with and if you do end up taking shoes off, she will have better nutrition begun.
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Already on a v simple feed plan in that its grass, hay and small handful of hay cobs. Starting to intro a balancer but mindful of doing too much at once - I've been introducing her to more time out slowly (used to a livery regime) as I prefer mine out as much as possible. She's adjusting well to all of that and in a positive has settled brilliantly.
 
Update - basic X-rays show some balances issues (flatter pedal bone than normal) that we can work to improve and very thin soles. Plan is to look to work on this first before we go for a full blow investigation. Vet doesn't think barefoot is an option now due to the sole and risk of bruising etc but agreed if we can get some good foot growth that might change. Different options will be discussed with vet and farrier and we'll go from there.

Anyone any suggestions re management to help with this? Farriers formula or similar?
 
Ceriann said:
Update - basic X-rays show some balances issues (flatter pedal bone than normal) that we can work to improve and very thin soles. Plan is to look to work on this first before we go for a full blow investigation. Vet doesn't think barefoot is an option now due to the sole and risk of bruising etc but agreed if we can get some good foot growth that might change. Different options will be discussed with vet and farrier and we'll go from there.

Anyone any suggestions re management to help with this? Farriers formula or similar?
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Hi Ceriann, you're looking at a newly minted "expert" in thin soles ;) Blitz has 4-5mm on the left fore and 2-3mm on the right fore (normal is approx. 10-15mm).

He is managed barefoot, with boots and EVA pads for turnout and hacking. The pads offer both support and stimulation over the entire solar surface.

Without stimulation the solar corium doesn't produce any more sole. So by applying shoes and lifting the sole away from the ground it can just perpetuate the thin soles. Also, during the normal preparation of the foot for shoeing, the farrier takes sole of the sole away, which isn't the best, if you are already working with thinned soles.
 
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