New horse now unsound

[Hattie_xo]

I bought a gelding a few weeks ago and took the previous owners word for it that he had been vetted and passed but stupidly didn’t ask for proof, it now seems this gelding has a bad back so upon asking for proof from the previous owners of him passing the vetting they’re now stating they don’t have proof but that he had passed. I am awaiting a formal diagnosis of his issues but his back is definitely sore with pressure, the previous owners claims to have not known and I don’t believe they would have sold him if they had known as they have seemed very genuine the whole time about his experience and any other quirks, I’m just a bit disappointed and kicking myself that I had not gotten him vetted myself prior to purchase but I’m not experienced in buying horses so it sort of slipped my mind after they had already stated he’d been vetted.

My question is, is there any legal action I could take against the previous owner if this does turn out to be a problem that will cost me thousands in vets fees? Is it worth even trying to take action? I don’t believe the previous owner can actually afford to refund us now as it’s been a few weeks and no contract was created or signed and there is no proof of purchase except for bank transfers so I’m not sure if I even have a leg to stand on, my other question is would any previous treatments or injuries be on the passport for me to show my vet?

I don’t know what to do as I love this horse already, I just feel really disappointed and will feel even worse if he’s going to cost me thousands to treat.

 

[nikicb]

Were they a private seller or a dealer? You may have some rights with a dealer if the horse is not fit for purpose, but if not, whilst you have my sympathies, I am not sure you have any come back to be honest. Sorry. xx

 

[ester]

legally private sale 'not as described' applies
dealer 'not fit for purpose applies and right to return within X days) - I want to say 30 but thats without checking.

No treatments or injuries will be recorded in the passport.

Even if they did have him vetted (why?) it's only one vets opinion on the day and won't bring up everything that might be wrong.

 

[Hattie_xo]

Were they a private seller or a dealer? You may have some rights with a dealer if the horse is not fit for purpose, but if not, whilst you have my sympathies, I am not sure you have any come back to be honest. Sorry. xx

It was a private seller. And I thought as much anyway I just wanted to check!

 

[Hattie_xo]

legally private sale 'not as described' applies
dealer 'not fit for purpose applies and right to return within X days) - I want to say 30 but thats without checking.

No treatments or injuries will be recorded in the passport.

Even if they did have him vetted (why?) it's only one vets opinion on the day and won't bring up everything that might be wrong.

It was a private seller, and everything else they’ve stated about the horse is correct, the vetting I mentioned was when he was vetted on their purchase of him which was 2 months before my purchase of him, so I took them on their word that he had passed their vetting of him as it was so recent, however obviously I should have also had him vetted by my own vet.
Their reason for sale is that they were mis-sold the horse themselves and it was not right for their ability and had tried to return the horse to its previous owner but could not so decided to sell him on as a project and/or happy hacker, so I decided to buy the horse as such and I’ve had zero issues with his behaviour, I’m just concerned about his health and what it may cost me to fix it.

 

[SOS]

Even if the vetting was your own, at several months old (which is not very recent I originally thought you meant a few days) it’s worth next to nothing now. As previous posters said it’s a snapshot in time saying the horse was sound at that time. Did you insure him? If you’re inexperienced buying horses and worried about cost what made you take on a project?

With the best will in the world it sounds like you have gone into this naively and unfortunately are now paying the consequences. Pain is the main cause of behavioural issues horses. A horse that was too much of a project would ring alarm bells to me that pain is involved, therefore unless I was very experienced and had money to burn I’d steer clear, and if my heart was set it would have to be vetted (probably with xrays) to rule out pain.

Get the vet out and get a diagnosis, but it’s unlikely they will be able to confirm that it’s been lame for XYZ period of time... and even if they say it may well of been, that doesn’t change much. If you bought a lame horse, which under your judgement was sound else you would not of bought it, then you have accepted the horse in that state. Did you view the horse, if you didn’t I suppose the not as described may stand?

Sorry it’s not better news.

 

[Flowerofthefen]

Who has declared your horse has a bad back? Are you thinking ks? If his behaviour is great and you obviously like him could you not try and sort it yourself? You could ask whoever's had him vetted for permission for vets to release the vets finding.

 

[Lots of Gift Bags]

You can't rely on a vetting done for another person, the contract with the vet was not with you so there's no comeback there.
If this was a private sale, which it sounds like it was, I doubt that you would have any recourse here, you've had the horse a few weeks and there's nothing to say that this was already proving a problem.
All you can do is learn from the experience:
- Always have a horse vetted if you're a novice.
- Don't buy a horse described as a project unless 1) you're experienced and 2) you can afford to write the funds off and have enough for either vets bills or PTS
Sorry for your troubles, hope your vet can assess what's wrong and get him fixed quickly and without too much cost.

 

[Hattie_xo]

Even if the vetting was your own, at several months old (which is not very recent I originally thought you meant a few days) it’s worth next to nothing now. As previous posters said it’s a snapshot in time saying the horse was sound at that time. Did you insure him? If you’re inexperienced buying horses and worried about cost what made you take on a project?

With the best will in the world it sounds like you have gone into this naively and unfortunately are now paying the consequences. Pain is the main cause of behavioural issues horses. A horse that was too much of a project would ring alarm bells to me that pain is involved, therefore unless I was very experienced and had money to burn I’d steer clear, and if my heart was set it would have to be vetted (probably with xrays) to rule out pain.

Get the vet out and get a diagnosis, but it’s unlikely they will be able to confirm that it’s been lame for XYZ period of time... and even if they say it may well of been, that doesn’t change much. If you bought a lame horse, which under your judgement was sound else you would not of bought it, then you have accepted the horse in that state. Did you view the horse, if you didn’t I suppose the not as described may stand?

Sorry it’s not better news.

I’ve not insured him yet as it’s so recent and my insurance won’t approve it without proof he is sound or not, and I’m an experienced rider and schooler and he’s only a project in the sense that he is a standardbred who has been retrained but needs that extra bit of schooling which his previous owners could not do, they were told he was fully retrained and could do everything they wanted but it’s not the case, I was fully aware of this before purchase, I’m just not experienced in buying or selling as I have only ever owned and broken homebred horses, and I’m not worried about money in the sense that I can’t afford it, I just obviously don’t want to part ways with thousands in vets fees if something else could be done legally, which I didn’t think it could anyway.

He has no behavioural issues so I never suspected anything, he has symptoms of kissing spine (without bucking or rearing) but as he’s a standardbred they are also symptoms of needing retraining from pacing and how to balance himself and carry his body correctly, I viewed him several times and rode him in walk, trot, canter and jumping and whilst his gait is different (to be expected with a standardbred) he could perform all 4.

 

[AmyMay]

What does your vet think the problem is?

 

[meleeka]

Are you sure it’s not his tack causing the problem? If you’ve had him a few weeks there’s nothing to say he was like it when you bought him. I don’t think you have any comeback, sorry. To put it bluntly if you wanted to be sure you weren’t going to end up with an unsound horse you really should have had him vetted.

 

[Red-1]

To be fair, they must have been satisfied that the horse was sound on purchase, or presumably they would not have purchased themselves. They seem to have been very honest that they couldn't manage him and flagged up behavioural issues too.

I sold a horse in August, I wouldn't be able to produce the vet certificate from when she passed her vetting either. The certificate is only ever valid for saying the horse was sound on that day, and the insurance companies will only accept the vetting cert if it is within, I think, 4 or 6 weeks, so would have been out of date anyway.

I would have the vet examine this horse. Before they come I would think abut the following questions:-
If you rode it all of those times in the old home, and she showed no signs of a sore back then, what has changed?
Do you use a different saddle to the one they had?
Different saddle cloth?
Are you heavier than the previous rider?
I presume you upped the workload, could she just be sore at having to do more work?
Are you doing more hill work or school work?
Do you think that the move could have caused ulcers?

For the future, when I buy a horse I insure from the day I know I am vetting/buying. Many policies have a 2 week window that only cover accidental injury, this means that, if it is a week to vet and transport/purchase then you only have a 1 week window for something internal to go wrong. The policies have a 2 week free cancellation, so if the horse doesn't pass the vet you can cancel without charge. The policy would not pay out without a satisfactory vetting certificate, but that is OK, as without a satisfactory vetting cert you wouldn't buy, so would be cancelling the policy without charge anyway.

 

[ihatework]

I’m afraid horses don’t arrive with a guarantee that they will never cost your money at the vet, in fact most will at some point in time and I’m sure if you are as experienced as you say you understand that.
Anything being sold as a project with behaviour issues would warrant closer attention paid to its health on purchase, so if you aren’t going to vet and aren’t going to insure then that’s the gamble you take.
It’s disappointing, it’s frustrating, it’s expensive, but it’s also just horses.
Hopefully it’s just caused by saddle and easily rectified, fingers crossed ?

 

[MuffettMischief]

As someone above mentioned, could it be your tack causing an issue? If you’ve upped the workload, changed tack and routine, horse may have even slipped in the field, then this could be the cause of a sore back. Have your vet recommend the next best course of Treatment, maybe physio?, and then see what you have. Not sure the previous owner can be blamed if you’ve had the horse a few weeks and been fine until now

 

[Hattie_xo]

Who has declared your horse has a bad back? Are you thinking ks? If his behaviour is great and you obviously like him could you not try and sort it yourself? You could ask whoever's had him vetted for permission for vets to release the vets finding.

What does your vet think the problem is?

I’m awaiting the vet and a physio to see him, he just seems to be sore when you put pressure along his back and has muscle spasms.

 

[Hattie_xo]

Are you sure it’s not his tack causing the problem? If you’ve had him a few weeks there’s nothing to say he was like it when you bought him. I don’t think you have any comeback, sorry. To put it bluntly if you wanted to be sure you weren’t going to end up with an unsound horse you really should have had him vetted.

I know, it’s my mistake really and I’ll have to deal with it! His saddle came with him but I am planning to get a new fitted saddle anyway.

 

[doodle]

A vetting is just a snap shot of that day when vet was there. So even if they did have a vetting a few months ago it dosnt mean that horse will still be ok now. Also it’s a private sale so I don’t think you will have any comeback at all. Perhaps if there had been issues immediately but not as you say you bought a few weeks ago.

I think you just have to put this up to experience unfortunately.

 

[Hattie_xo]

As someone above mentioned, could it be your tack causing an issue? If you’ve upped the workload, changed tack and routine, horse may have even slipped in the field, then this could be the cause of a sore back. Have your vet recommend the next best course of Treatment, maybe physio?, and then see what you have. Not sure the previous owner can be blamed if you’ve had the horse a few weeks and been fine until now

He came with his tack and I am planning on getting a new fitted saddle for him anyway and hopefully that will resolve any issues! I’m waiting for the vet to actually see him as well as a physio as he’s clearly sore when you put pressure along his back, although he doesn’t buck or rear when riding so it’s very hard to tell, what made me check was that he doesn’t pick his feet up very easily for picking out and his hind legs won’t budge at all, the previous owner said he is stubborn but will pick them up with patience and coaxing, I can pick his front feet out but the back ones aren’t lifting whatsoever.

 

[Hattie_xo]

A vetting is just a snap shot of that day when vet was there. So even if they did have a vetting a few months ago it dosnt mean that horse will still be ok now. Also it’s a private sale so I don’t think you will have any comeback at all. Perhaps if there had been issues immediately but not as you say you bought a few weeks ago.

I think you just have to put this up to experience unfortunately.

The only immediate issue was that he doesn’t pick his back feet up when trying to pick out which lead me to explore this more, the previous owners said he did with them but was stubborn and it takes more patience and coaxing to do it, I’m not sure I was ever aware of this during a viewing though.

 

[AmyMay]

How old is he?

 

[Hattie_xo]

Just turned 9

 

[AmyMay]

Ok, so there could be a touch of arthritis in the hocks which may be the reason for the reluctance to pick up hinds.

Bit really, until your vet has examined the horse it’s all guess work on whether he’s unsound etc or simply being ridden in poorly fitting tack.

 

[Leandy]

Really, why is your first thought legal redress against a previous owner you describe as having been open with you when you haven't even worked out if there is a real issue yet?? You don't have a diagnosis from a vet and the horse doesn't seem to have behavioural issues to worry about. I'm not sure you are either experienced or sensible enough for a project horse. What do you expect of a project horse you bought knowing the previous owners only had him a couple of months and were selling due to his lack of suitability. That should be a red flag right there warranting proper and thorough investigation and vetting before purchase.

 

[PeterNatt]

When a buyer is dissatisfied with a horse after purchase, the law provides them with various routes to pursue a seller.

The buyer may be able to rely on the Consumer rights Act 2015 which provides that the horse sold in the course of a business to a consumer must be of satisfactory quality, fit for purpose and as described. If the horse fails to meet any of these provisions, the buyer has rights including the right to reject the horse within 30 days of receiving it.
The buyer may also rely on representations made by the seller before the purchase, although it is more difficult to do so. This could be an oral statement made when the horse was being viewed or a statement in an advert.
If those statements turn out to be untrue, the buyer can allege that the seller has made a misrepresentation and that the buyer is entitled to damages or to return the horse and seek a refund.

An aggrieved buyer must set out their case in writing, and allow the seller time to respond (and to make any proposals to resolve the dispute) before issuing court proceedings, if no resolution can be reached, the buyer would have to issue a claim form at court to pursue the matter.
The parties will go through a process dictated by the court, which is likely to include exchanging documents and witness statements. At a trial the judge will consider the documents and listen to witnesses. If the parties are represented the judge will also hear from their solicitor or barrister.
The crucial issue in a dispute such as this is almost invariably what was said or agreed before the sale. Buyers will face difficulties in persuading a judge the seller told them something if there is no record. Witnesses memories become jaded so judges are far more interested in documentary evidence. Examples are E-mails, text messages and social media messages. If an issue is important to you it is best to have it recorded in a contract of sale, but if that is not practical, make sure you have documentary record of it.