New horse turned into an absolute nightmare, need advice.

Is the place you bought him from where you are keeping him on full livery ? I would definately challenge the original vetting as he was 'local' if I was going to the expense of a 5 stage vetting I'd get my own vet not someone who knows the horse already it should be independant. I'd ask your vet to look at it one who does not know the horse
 
Lola43 said:
Have never posted before, only read comments, but this seems similar to my current experience. Six weeks ago I purchased an alleged saint that had hunted all season with Beaufort. Viewed the horse (rode it in the school and hacked out), had five stage vetting - all fine. Paid a lot of money for the horse and rode it three times after it arrived with no trouble. Went to ride a fourth time and found I had a different horse. It tried to bite me and kick me when grooming, so thinking perhaps it had a girth gall, I left if a few days to settle. No improvement in its demeanour in the stable, so a few days later called the vet, who examined it and said it had a bad back. Since then, it has been a downward spiral. When you get on, as soon as you ask it to move forward, it bucks. I have had vets, saddlers, physios, instructors ..... nobody can get to the bottom of the problem and the previous owner - of course - will not have the horse back as the horse passed the vetting and so she says the problem must lie with me. What could possibly have happened in the space of 5 days that the horse went from perfectly rideable, to totally unrideable?

I had the blood tested (at vast expense) and that came back negative. So I am now faced with the prospect of spending thousands of pounds on x-rays/scans to determine whether or not there is a spinal problem - which may or may not be treatable. I cannot address the behaviour without eliminating a physical cause. If there is a physical cause I might have some redress if it is found to be a long-standing or pre-existing condition, but only if I sue either the vendor or the vet who performed the vetting. More money - on lawyers - with no guarantee of success. If, heaven forbid, it is the result of an injury that happened shortly after he arrived (but what??), my insurance will not cover that. In fact, my insurance won't cover ANYTHING in this situation as it all falls within the 14 day exclusion period.

If I cut my losses and walk away from this horse before spending any more on it (I couldn't sell it, obviously), I will still be looking at a black hole of around £10,000, which will put me out of the game for good.

This couldn't be more devastating as my last, beloved, horse that I had for 7 years had to be pts in February as a result of neurological problems. The time spent diagnosing, treating and trying to rehabilitate him before he eventually relapsed meant no riding for 7 months. So now, here I am again, seemingly about to take shares in my local veterinary practice, with nothing to ride.
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That's a terrible position to be in.
You need to try to get a diagnosis on what is causeing the back pain I would discuss with the vet a course of action to try to do this with minimal cost.
If you can't find anything with the back I would also think about ulcers which can be triggered by a change in home.
Have you tried a bute trial ? ( although I would use Danilon not bute ) give the horse two a day and see if the behaviour changes if the horse improves you know you are looking for pain .
If not you can't discount pain as not all conditions are helped by antinflammatories but a pain killer trial is cheap and worth trying if you have not all ready.
Best wishes I feel for you.
 
What a few people have mentioned but noone has really said much about is the saddle.

I have been in the same situation as you a good few years ago - bought horse which was pretty good when I tried it. It was in a big yard being hunted hard and fed nothing. Got it home and after 2 weeks I couldn't even get on it. Saddle not fitting brilliantly was a major issue, lack of work and me trying to feed horse up as it was so skinny. A nightmare.

Did saddle come with horse? Did you just plonk one you thought fitted on? Did you get a good saddler out to fit him?

I imagine the combination of a badly fitting saddle, hardly any work and a lot of food is the problem here. Could be wrong!!!
 
Unfortunately 5 days is plenty long enough for a horse to injure itself rolling, either in the field or in the stable. If the horse ws fine for the first few days it does sound as if the reason for the change in behaviour is linked to something that happened after it arrived with you. Did you change the horse's feed? Routine? Companions? Of course you did. The solution is to find the particular change which has made the difference.
Have you tried acupuncture? I've seen horses change shape completely when given this for a bad back.
 
Didn't want to come away from this post without saying good luck and I hope you find a suitable solution for you, the horse and your daughter. Some fantastic advice that people have posted and please do let us know how you get on. I'm sorry that you have had to go through this, sounds absolutely awful :(
 
*Maddy&Occhi* said:
Didn't want to come away from this post without saying good luck and I hope you find a suitable solution for you, the horse and your daughter. Some fantastic advice that people have posted and please do let us know how you get on. I'm sorry that you have had to go through this, sounds absolutely awful :(
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This ^^from me too- really feel for you as had similar dilemmas in the past- do what you feel is right.
 
In response to lola43, I would want to find out what is wrong - it all sounds pain related and it could easily have happened since he arrived with you. I agree re. Ulcers - it could be stress at changing home/feed etc. It sounds as if he has a long time in pain without any investigation.
A bute trial is not such a bad idea either - at least you can establish if it is pain related. Did your vet not suggest x-rays - they are not very expensive nor is a blood test?
 
Thanks for all your comments. Funnily enough, after I had posted earlier I stumbled upon a link to a youtube video about gastric ulcers - maybe that is the problem. As luck would have it my vets are hosting an ulcer clinic in a couple of weeks, so am going to book him in for that. The horse has been seen twice by my vets, and we are now discussing x-rays in addition to the ulcer clinic. However, they themselves are consulting other experts to try to give me the best advice, so I can't fault them - apart from the fact that I suggested ulcers, not them!! My (qualified) saddle-fitter looked at my saddle and felt it unlikely that my saddle had caused any of these problems. Whilst I haven't dismissed saddle-issues entirely, it is just one of a seemingly endless list of 'things to be eliminated'.

Anyway, I must apologise for hijacking the original posting, but it does help to know that there are other people out there with similar problems. I'm not a novice horse owner, but we all learn from experience and fortunately/unfortunately, this is not a situation I have been in before.
 
I hope both you and OP can sort things out. In your case I would want a blood test as well to ensure that all is well. And would definitely want the X-rays. Do you really want to wait another two weeks without finding out if the horse has ulcers - I don't understand when the horse seems to be in pain that you are happy to leave it like that!
Good luck and I hope you get to the bottom of it.
 
Sorry youre having problems op, fwiw heres my tuppence worth.
Cut the feed out and turn out 24/7 if you can.
Please dont do anything hasty before you know what youre dealing with. The only way to find that out, will cost you more money, but hopefully hundreds, not thousands so imo is worth it considering what youve spent.
Id have a good physio/bodyworker out to get their advice on the horse, see if what they find ties in with 2nd vet report.
Get the tack, mainly saddle checked by a good master saddler, if they can attend when the physio is there all the better
Teeth should have been looked at in the 5 stage, but might be worth looking again
I would find the best equine vet i could get my hands on and let them see both vet and physio reports before examining the horse looking specifically at the issues highlighted in the 2nd report, or thrown up by your physio exam, your horse doesnt need "vetted" again but might need diagnostics and treatment to resolve the issues that may give you your nice horse back for many many years.
I hope you get Things sorted out OP
 
huntley said:
I hope both you and OP can sort things out. In your case I would want a blood test as well to ensure that all is well. And would definitely want the X-rays. Do you really want to wait another two weeks without finding out if the horse has ulcers - I don't understand when the horse seems to be in pain that you are happy to leave it like that!
Good luck and I hope you get to the bottom of it.
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Many vets practices dont own a gastro scope the service is provided by visiting specialist vets who travel round doing clinics . Lola43 probally has no choice but to wait .
 
OP, Hope I'm wrong but alarm bells are ringing for me.
So you have a horse that is under total control of the yard owner.
You want to sell.
Only interested party just happens to be a 'lucky' find from the yard.
Horse then fails vet with possible long term problems.
YO then offers to take horse for free.
I would place a good bet on where the horse would end up pretty quickly.
 
Lola43 said:
Have never posted before, only read comments, but this seems similar to my current experience. Six weeks ago I purchased an alleged saint that had hunted all season with Beaufort. Viewed the horse (rode it in the school and hacked out), had five stage vetting - all fine. Paid a lot of money for the horse and rode it three times after it arrived with no trouble. Went to ride a fourth time and found I had a different horse. It tried to bite me and kick me when grooming, so thinking perhaps it had a girth gall, I left if a few days to settle. No improvement in its demeanour in the stable, so a few days later called the vet, who examined it and said it had a bad back. Since then, it has been a downward spiral. When you get on, as soon as you ask it to move forward, it bucks. I have had vets, saddlers, physios, instructors ..... nobody can get to the bottom of the problem and the previous owner - of course - will not have the horse back as the horse passed the vetting and so she says the problem must lie with me. What could possibly have happened in the space of 5 days that the horse went from perfectly rideable, to totally unrideable?

I had the blood tested (at vast expense) and that came back negative. So I am now faced with the prospect of spending thousands of pounds on x-rays/scans to determine whether or not there is a spinal problem - which may or may not be treatable. I cannot address the behaviour without eliminating a physical cause. If there is a physical cause I might have some redress if it is found to be a long-standing or pre-existing condition, but only if I sue either the vendor or the vet who performed the vetting. More money - on lawyers - with no guarantee of success. If, heaven forbid, it is the result of an injury that happened shortly after he arrived (but what??), my insurance will not cover that. In fact, my insurance won't cover ANYTHING in this situation as it all falls within the 14 day exclusion period.

If I cut my losses and walk away from this horse before spending any more on it (I couldn't sell it, obviously), I will still be looking at a black hole of around £10,000, which will put me out of the game for good.

This couldn't be more devastating as my last, beloved, horse that I had for 7 years had to be pts in February as a result of neurological problems. The time spent diagnosing, treating and trying to rehabilitate him before he eventually relapsed meant no riding for 7 months. So now, here I am again, seemingly about to take shares in my local veterinary practice, with nothing to ride.
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Why can't you address the behaviour in the stable before you have a diagnostic for a possible physical cause?

What's happening to the behaviour on the ground between the initial first week and during this time of vets visits ect. when nobody is attempting to ride?
What is the horse doing? What's it been doing for these six weeks, standing in the stable?

Maybe I'm missing something here. Because I have read it as trying to do some grooming, the horse is nasty, and then it's been left in the stable for a few days and then the riding problems.
 
Personally, I'd start turning the horse out 24/7 immediately as that can really help - some horses get really peed off being stabled. Get EVERYTHING checked, get a different vet back for a second opinion (dont believe what the last one said, Ive had horses fail by one vet and then pass with my own vet only hours later!). Get his back, saddle, teeth etc. all done.

Then: As you're not confident with the horse, is there anyone else (BAR the yard owner who sounds like they just want a freebie!) on the yard who would be willing to school the horse? Quite often you'll find a confident person who will happily enjoy a challenge. See if a more experienced person can sort the issue. If so, then you can at least hopefully sell the horse for some money at the end of it. No point in thinking you can keep it after that as your daughter has probably lost all confidence with it. Failing that, sell it as it is - be really honest and someone may still buy it for an ok price (unlikely £6k) thinking it is purely a schooling thing. The horse might simply clash with you / your daughter. I had a horse who was lovely with me, but I put it on a pre-sale trial to someone and the same horse was horrid to her - bit her, kicked her, trampled on her! Brought him home and he was lovely with me again! Some horses just seem to get on with certain people!
 
Goodness, if it turns out the horse doesn't have ulcers, I think I might have soon!

Just to respond to a suggestion that this might be over-reaction to some bad stable manners, I would confirm that I am quite capable of dealing with those. Extreme sensitivity appearing overnight is not something to be dismissed, as evidenced by the genuine reactions witnessed by both the vet, the physio and my instructor. In addition, I would also clarify that I have not left the horse standing in a stable for six weeks. I rode him myself in the first week and since then he has had daily time on the horse walker, turnout and lungeing.

I really posted in the first place just show a bit of solidarity with the OP, as sometimes it seems every way you turn, you come up against a brick wall. The frustration, disappointment and stress is immense, especially if you have made a large investment of both hope and money.
 
Sorry, but if the horse has a suspected, but undiagnosed, back problem, lunging and a horse walker are not necessarily the best thing for them as they are constantly on the turn. If the attitude in the stable came on suddenly that would say to me that they want to be left alone because they are in pain. Is the horse eating normally - what about its pooing and weeing?
Does it look well in itself? I would be concerned that it could be something internal rather than a sore back. I still think a general blood test would be a good idea.
Is the horse alone in the field and settled or is it out with others and maybe being bullied? This can make them very sensitive to people and horses.
Just a thought! Really hope you can get to the bottom of it.
 
huntley said:
Sorry, but if the horse has a suspected, but undiagnosed, back problem, lunging and a horse walker are not necessarily the best thing for them as they are constantly on the turn. If the attitude in the stable came on suddenly that would say to me that they want to be left alone because they are in pain. Is the horse eating normally - what about its pooing and weeing?
Does it look well in itself? I would be concerned that it could be something internal rather than a sore back. I still think a general blood test would be a good idea.
Is the horse alone in the field and settled or is it out with others and maybe being bullied? This can make them very sensitive to people and horses.
Just a thought! Really hope you can get to the bottom of it.
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Better lunged and on a horse walker than breaking Lola43s neck the horse has seen a vet and a physio so we can safely assume they are happy with the horses programme .
If the horse is showing symptoms of back pain lunging can be exactly what they need lunging is often rehab of choice for horses with back issues.
 
Dear Shaylux. Firstly apologies if this is repeated elsewhere - not time to read all (many) posts.
Sorry for your situation. Where to go from here:
1. If you've had 5* vet? Then should have taken bloods. Get tests by all means but I suspect they'll be ok.
2. Vet recommended by seller? Phone vet and ask if he/she is their vet. If so, they must reveal any previous problems with this horse/treatment it's had.

I suspect the problem might be you've bought a super fit competition horse in hard work that is not suitable for your daughter at present. What to do next:

Forget huge amount paid (if you've not remortgaged the home) it's horse, daughter and you that now matter.

You've got ponies 'at home'? Bring horse home and turn away for a few weeks/months through summer.
Don't try and ride it yet. Let it un wind and lose fitness while you and all family get to know and handle it. As your confidence and horse's increase. Put a saddle on and ride in field/on lanes/with ponies. Let it be a family horse then gradually work back towards the big competition horse that your daughter dreamt of. In mean time (instead of paying £600! a week for advice and livery let daughter have lessons on lots of different horses to rebuild confidence and increase experience and fitness).
All will be well. It may take a lot of time but it will be truly yours and will mean a lot more to you. Best of luck
 
Cant quote on phone but would like to say that you would go a long way to getter better advice than that given by oldjumper - take the pressure off both you and the horse for a couple of months.
 
oldjumper said:
Dear Shaylux. Firstly apologies if this is repeated elsewhere - not time to read all (many) posts.
Sorry for your situation. Where to go from here:
1. If you've had 5* vet? Then should have taken bloods. Get tests by all means but I suspect they'll be ok.
2. Vet recommended by seller? Phone vet and ask if he/she is their vet. If so, they must reveal any previous problems with this horse/treatment it's had.

I suspect the problem might be you've bought a super fit competition horse in hard work that is not suitable for your daughter at present. What to do next:

Forget huge amount paid (if you've not remortgaged the home) it's horse, daughter and you that now matter.

You've got ponies 'at home'? Bring horse home and turn away for a few weeks/months through summer.
Don't try and ride it yet. Let it un wind and lose fitness while you and all family get to know and handle it. As your confidence and horse's increase. Put a saddle on and ride in field/on lanes/with ponies. Let it be a family horse then gradually work back towards the big competition horse that your daughter dreamt of. In mean time (instead of paying £600! a week for advice and livery let daughter have lessons on lots of different horses to rebuild confidence and increase experience and fitness).
All will be well. It may take a lot of time but it will be truly yours and will mean a lot more to you. Best of luck
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Best post on this thread.
 
Oldjumper speaks a lot of sense. Sometimes it's possible to get too close to problems so that its not possible to see the wood for the trees. I think there is a fair chance that buying a fit hunter used to hard work as a horse for a young girl was always going to have a chance of going pear shaped for a while.
 
oldjumper said:
Dear Shaylux. Firstly apologies if this is repeated elsewhere - not time to read all (many) posts.
Sorry for your situation. Where to go from here:
1. If you've had 5* vet? Then should have taken bloods. Get tests by all means but I suspect they'll be ok.
2. Vet recommended by seller? Phone vet and ask if he/she is their vet. If so, they must reveal any previous problems with this horse/treatment it's had.

I suspect the problem might be you've bought a super fit competition horse in hard work that is not suitable for your daughter at present. What to do next:

Forget huge amount paid (if you've not remortgaged the home) it's horse, daughter and you that now matter.

You've got ponies 'at home'? Bring horse home and turn away for a few weeks/months through summer.
Don't try and ride it yet. Let it un wind and lose fitness while you and all family get to know and handle it. As your confidence and horse's increase. Put a saddle on and ride in field/on lanes/with ponies. Let it be a family horse then gradually work back towards the big competition horse that your daughter dreamt of. In mean time (instead of paying £600! a week for advice and livery let daughter have lessons on lots of different horses to rebuild confidence and increase experience and fitness).
All will be well. It may take a lot of time but it will be truly yours and will mean a lot more to you. Best of luck
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^^ All of this ^^ Superb post.

Most hunters would usually get time off at the end of the season anyway, so I would do that. Chuck him out at home with your ponies, let him get muddy and hairy, and just get to know him on the ground first. I actually think you'll probably be OK with him once he's come back down to earth and chilled out :)
 
Way back on page 5 I said I though you're daughter was overhorsed and this was probably the main cause of your troubles. I therefore agree most strongly with Oldjumper.
 
oldjumper said:
Dear Shaylux. Firstly apologies if this is repeated elsewhere - not time to read all (many) posts.
Sorry for your situation. Where to go from here:
1. If you've had 5* vet? Then should have taken bloods. Get tests by all means but I suspect they'll be ok.
2. Vet recommended by seller? Phone vet and ask if he/she is their vet. If so, they must reveal any previous problems with this horse/treatment it's had.

I suspect the problem might be you've bought a super fit competition horse in hard work that is not suitable for your daughter at present. What to do next:

Forget huge amount paid (if you've not remortgaged the home) it's horse, daughter and you that now matter.

You've got ponies 'at home'? Bring horse home and turn away for a few weeks/months through summer.
Don't try and ride it yet. Let it un wind and lose fitness while you and all family get to know and handle it. As your confidence and horse's increase. Put a saddle on and ride in field/on lanes/with ponies. Let it be a family horse then gradually work back towards the big competition horse that your daughter dreamt of. In mean time (instead of paying £600! a week for advice and livery let daughter have lessons on lots of different horses to rebuild confidence and increase experience and fitness).
All will be well. It may take a lot of time but it will be truly yours and will mean a lot more to you. Best of luck
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Agree. As for Lola, have you had blood tests for liver? My horse was showing lots of ulcer type signs but when blood tested she actually had a liver infection
 
Pale Rider said:
Way back on page 5 I said I though you're daughter was overhorsed and this was probably the main cause of your troubles. I therefore agree most strongly with Oldjumper.
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I think everyone recognised your post as unhelpful. You can not blame the horses bad behaviour on her daughter as she had only been sat on it for what 20m when it decked her. No one can ruin a horse within 20m of sitting on it - unless there is something you want to admit to HHO about your own riding?
 
dieseldog said:
I think everyone recognised your post as unhelpful. You can not blame the horses bad behaviour on her daughter as she had only been sat on it for what 20m when it decked her. No one can ruin a horse within 20m of sitting on it - unless there is something you want to admit to HHO about your own riding?
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I didn't read it as blaming the daughter for the horses behaviour...
 
blue89 said:
Firstly I would like to say I and deeply sorry to hear about your situation, I am not an expert on this but I do agree with 'claracanter' is to contact the vets that performed the 5 stage vetting for you, they should have blood samples as this is taken at stage 4 and are stored for 6 months and can be checked for the prescence of tranquillisers or pain killers if required.

Maybe prehapes contact your local vet also and ask for their advice and what actions you should then take, because surely you are eligible for compensation for the misdiagnosed vetting and false advertising.

I really hope that the situation becomes resolved for you and your daughter. keep us posted on what happens.
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^^^^^This ^^^^^^

I to really hope that the situation becomes resolved for you and your daughter. keep us posted on what happens
 
Re. OP - good advice has been given here. Just give them both some time to chill out and relax without any pressure. I, too, would be very wary of yard manager offering to take the horse off your hands!
Re. Lola - agree totally with Ridestar. I would definitely want a liver test. She does not say if the horse is looking OK. Also I agree with Goldenstar re the lunging for a back problem, but, unless I have missed something, they have not actually investigated whether it is a back problem or something internal, ie ulcers or liver problem. The liver does lie quite close to the spine and I would be more suspicious of that as it would explain the horse's mood change in the stable.
Anyway, best of luck to both of them and I hope they both end up with the horse they bought!
 
dieseldog said:
I think everyone recognised your post as unhelpful. You can not blame the horses bad behaviour on her daughter as she had only been sat on it for what 20m when it decked her. No one can ruin a horse within 20m of sitting on it - unless there is something you want to admit to HHO about your own riding?
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Being overhorsed is not about 'ruining' a horse by bad riding but that the rider wasn't experienced/confident enough to deal with an unruly horse. There are a lot of overhorsed riders out there - you only have to read a few posts on this forum to be aware of that.

I think the advice to turn the horse out to chill is a great idea, but do take a couple of weeks to allow his tum to cope with the change of diet. Reduce feed and then stop all hard feed completely. A hunter is used to working really hard and being very fit, no different than being on a racehorse ready for the track.
 
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