new horse turns out to be a rearer-advice please

Santa_Claus said:
The dealer needs to be given fair chance as well, I love how they has been written off as a scoundrel when they are probably not even aware there is a problem with the horse in the first place!!
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That's being very generous! I agree there's a good few things the OP would be well advised to consider trying before pts what might be to her, or at least to someone else, a useful horse, but as you say "once a rearer, always a rearer". It would be highly unlikely, IMO, that this was this horse's first go at rearing. I reckon at least 80% of horses who've "never done that before" have damn well done it before many times, just some issues are manageable by some jockeys. Those horses, including your horse, have a problem that ethically ought to be disclosed.

Good luck OP.
 
There's always a first time for everything. It's always possible the horse never had cause to react in that particular way until the first day it did it with the OP.

As an example, I've seen more than one 4 year old stand up out of the blue from teething issues. Often the horse does it once, an experienced owner gets the teeth sorted/gives the horse some time/changes to a hackamore and there is no further issue. But someone else might not handle the situation as well and now the horse has a new trick. So yesterday the horse was fine, today it rears. SOME horses show a tendency from birth but not all. I cannot tell you how many times I've seen a 'habit' start in a moment, not even necessarily a dramatic one.
 
I don't think I'm being generous. A horse that has always been ridden by pros or equally experienced riders may never consider showing such behaviours but put in the hands of an inexperience rider will do. Ive seen it happen countless times nice horse nicely produced and not known to misbehave ever (genuinely) turns into problem horse which is allowed to get away with murder and does.

You can't pass judgement without the facts what has happened to innocent till proven guilty?! Yes I may have reared before but it also may not have the fact is we don't know an the dealer hasn't been asked and it's not legally disclosable a time of sale although if asked it would need to be confirmed/denied honestly.

I wouldn't sell my mare but if I did I would let any potential purchasers aware of her history because morally its the right thing to do. I would also be very very picky of where she went as she is the sort of horse that could be ruined in a day undoing years of hard work!
 
TarrSteps said:
There's always a first time for everything. It's always possible the horse never had cause to react in that particular way until the first day it did it with the OP.

As an example, I've seen more than one 4 year old stand up out of the blue from teething issues. Often the horse does it once, an experienced owner gets the teeth sorted/gives the horse some time/changes to a hackamore and there is no further issue. But someone else might not handle the situation as well and now the horse has a new trick. So yesterday the horse was fine, today it rears. SOME horses show a tendency from birth but not all. I cannot tell you how many times I've seen a 'habit' start in a moment, not even necessarily a dramatic one.
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Exactly:), and absolutely nothing against the OP, But how many horses which have been professional produced have been sold to the wrong people have ended up this way, though naivety and lack of experience.
 
I have given up reading and replying to the posts as they are just getting more and more negative. to be honest I wish I never asked for advice in the first place!

I would like to say a couple of things though

Firsty, I am in no way 'inexperienced' I produced my old pony from jumping off the lead rein classes to jumping newcomers, I have competed in BS up to senior newcomers and at county shows, I completely changed my old horses way of going (he used to charge flat out at jumps but after months of going back to basics and working things back up I had a horse that would jump in a snaffle with no martingale instead of having a pelham and martingale. I have competed in unaff dressage to Novice, I also taught him flying changes, leg yield and shoulder in. I have also worked on a busy livery yard on the weekends and done work exp on a sj yard so I am in no way 'unexperienced'

Secondly the event rider is in no way to blame, we contacted her and had a reply saying that she competed him for an owner and one day she went to get him from the field and he was hopping lame. The vet came out and found he'd done a hind suspensory. The owner was unwilling to pay for treatment and he was passed around a bit before ending up in the dealers. The dealers must have been aware that he'd done a suspensory but they failed to tell us. We have the vet coming out first thing tomorrow to check him over and give us an opinion on his hind suspensory.

We are going to wait until we hear from the vet before making any decisions. If anyone has any HELPFUL information (not rude, patronising or telling me that i'm a crap owner and rider) on suspensory injuries and recovery please feel free to inbox me, but for now I am done commenting on this post.
 
Polos I am sorry you feel like that any advice I gave I meant to be helpful I am sorry if you have not found it so.
I think you have found your answer ,my only experiance of hind suspensory issues was a friends horse and that one did rear and not want to hack out it was a long time ago and treatments have moved on .
 
Polos said:
Firsty, I am in no way 'inexperienced'
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Polos you are still going around hacking with your Mum walking with you. That makes you way more inexperienced than those of us who have been in horses too long for our Mums to be able to walk that far and fast, if they are still alive. You are "relatively" inexperienced with horses which are way different than ponies, but I am sorry if being described that way by me upset you. It was not intended as a criticism of your youth any more than it was of my advanced age :)

Secondly the event rider is in no way to blame, we contacted her and had a reply saying that she competed him for an owner and one day she went to get him from the field and he was hopping lame. The vet came out and found he'd done a hind suspensory. The owner was unwilling to pay for treatment and he was passed around a bit before ending up in the dealers. The dealers must have been aware that he'd done a suspensory but they failed to tell us. We have the vet coming out first thing tomorrow to check him over and give us an opinion on his hind suspensory.
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My advice is:


Give up now before you throw good money after bad. Hind suspensories are bad news. Many of them have to be denerved to work again and that can regrow, as well as costing a lot of money for which you are now not insured, (if you were originally) having declared online that the horse had a pre-existing problem.

If you need the money, then you have no option that I can see but to send him back to the dealer if you can prove he knew about the suspensories. I have known of several rearing horses that turned out to have hock and/or hind suspensory problems. My friend has one in her field right now beginning a year's rest to see if it can come right. It flipped out of the blue on a hack like yours and dropped her on the floor, thankfully unhurt.

If you don't need the money then I would give him a year off, have him reassessed and have him put down then if this was still an issue.

This new information is a complete answer to your horse's issues. I am so sorry for you that you have been done to by the chain of owners who passed this poor horse on until you ended up with him.
 
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As above, I'm sorry you felt we were deliberately being mean to you. We were not to know the details of your situation and, to be fair, many people made the point that none of us could give you specific advice because we don't know you and can't see your horse.

It seems you now have a possible reason for the behaviour, which is great for the horse's sake. It is possible you've been lied to by the dealer, of course it's also possible the owners simply kept the information to themselves in the hope that ignorance would be bliss.

Very unfortunate for you but hopefully with that information you'll be able to pursue a successful resolution.
 
Polos, When you talk to the dealer you need to know that unfortunately for him it is NO DEFENCE for him to have been lied to by the previoous owner. As a dealer, what he sells has to be "fit for purpose" - a legal term - whether he knew it was or not.

He is TOTALLY liable in law to take this horse back and give you a full refund. Whether you can make him is another matter altogether. Friends of mine sued, and won, and never saw a penny of the amount they were awarded or the £10,000 it cost them in legal fees.


Personally I wish the owner who had him when he developed this trouble could be prosecuted. It is all their fault for not taking responsibility for him. They have caused him, you and other people heartache and loss.
 
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All the comments became a bit too much and made me feel quite down. The situation is already stressful enough without these comments.

My mum walked with me as it would not have been a wise option to go hacking by myself especially given his behaviour (before we knew the real meaning of it). I never hack by myself from a saftey point of view not from a lack of experience. No one was hacking that day so my mum walked along behind.

The email from the event rider is quite interesting. It turns out he had 6 owners within 2 months just before I bought him. Somewhere down the line he fell into bad hands and he started to misbehave and he was never corrected so he just continued misbehaving. There is a comment in the email that (how we interpreted it- it could mean differently so don't take my word for it) goes along the lines of the dealer telling the event rider that they had sold the horse and if anyone contacted her (the event rider) she was not to mention any unsoundness. We are considering contacting the BHS legal team for some advice.

regarding the horse, the vet came out today and gave him some danilon and he is on box rest for a week. The vet will return next week to re assess. Unfortunately the option of putting him out to grass for a year is not financially viable for us so we will have to see what the vet says next week. As he seems to have been passed from pillar to post I am hesitant to sell him on after everything is back to normal as he could just get passed around again so we are unsure what to do at this present moment in time.
 
Polos said:
We are considering contacting the BHS legal team for some advice.
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Definitely do this :) Do you know when the injury was sustained, as anything tendon or ligament related needs a long recovery period :confused:

Sorry the thread made you feel down, I don't think anyone intended to make you feel bad, but the situation was obviously one many people could relate to.

Good luck!
 
I know this isn't very helpfull. But at least now the horse has got some one looking into his leg instead of passing him around, I do feel for them when they r hurting and no one can or will try for them. If he didn't come sound in stead of pts. U cud always see about retirement homes for him. I know he's probably to young but u never know

Hope it all works out. X
 
I really feel for you OP, you are paying for other people's calousness in passing this horse on. Do get legal advice, there is a chance you might be able to recoup some of your costs and I hope a solution is found for the horse.
 
As he seems to have been passed from pillar to post I am hesitant to sell him on after everything is back to normal as he could just get passed around again so we are unsure what to do at this present moment in time.
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No, obviously you can't sell him.

I would be fighting the dealer, and looking to keep the horse for you to be able to make a final decision on him.

What a sad, sad story.
 
Poor you and poor horse it's stressful for them changing homes and owners anyway, but so many changes. My WB had 4 previous owners in the previous 3 years and had moved yards 3 times with just the previous owner. It has taken him 2 years to settle fully. Even without a physical problem it will take your horse months of consistency to settle imo.

I hope you get to the bottom of it and are rewarded by him turning into a sweet loyal horse. If you are insured the full investigation is definately the route to go. Good luck!
 
Polos go to the Epona stars Facebook page which helps people who have been had by unscrupulous dealers it would not solve are your problems but at least you can get advice and support from people who have been in similar situations.
Good luck with it all.
 
Just as a small hopefull story, OP, I know someone who had a similar experience and did, in the end, get at least some of their money back. In that case the dealer had not been made aware of the horse's history but still had contact info for the original seller who, it turned out, knew full well the horse was compromised. I'll confess it didn't go through the courts but the original owner did take the horse back and pay the buyer.
 
Polos said:
I have given up reading and replying to the posts as they are just getting more and more negative. to be honest I wish I never asked for advice in the first place!

I would like to say a couple of things though

Firsty, I am in no way 'inexperienced' I produced my old pony from jumping off the lead rein classes to jumping newcomers, I have competed in BS up to senior newcomers and at county shows, I completely changed my old horses way of going (he used to charge flat out at jumps but after months of going back to basics and working things back up I had a horse that would jump in a snaffle with no martingale instead of having a pelham and martingale. I have competed in unaff dressage to Novice, I also taught him flying changes, leg yield and shoulder in. I have also worked on a busy livery yard on the weekends and done work exp on a sj yard so I am in no way 'unexperienced'

Secondly the event rider is in no way to blame, we contacted her and had a reply saying that she competed him for an owner and one day she went to get him from the field and he was hopping lame. The vet came out and found he'd done a hind suspensory. The owner was unwilling to pay for treatment and he was passed around a bit before ending up in the dealers. The dealers must have been aware that he'd done a suspensory but they failed to tell us. We have the vet coming out first thing tomorrow to check him over and give us an opinion on his hind suspensory.

We are going to wait until we hear from the vet before making any decisions. If anyone has any HELPFUL information (not rude, patronising or telling me that i'm a crap owner and rider) on suspensory injuries and recovery please feel free to inbox me, but for now I am done commenting on this post.
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I don't know if you read my post about the mare at our yard. She had hind suspensory problems and used to rear up and flip over. She went to Rossdales and was operated on. She then had several months off. But she came back into full work, sound and has never reared since.
 
Wagtail said:
We had a horse here for three years that used to rear and fall over backwards. My hubby banned me from riding her. Had the vet several times and nothing was found. Not lame or anything. Then she started to lose her back end occasionally when being lunged or ridden on a circle. Vet came out again and found bilateral hindleg lameness on flexion. Eventually she was diagnosed with upper suspensory desmitis and was operated on. She has never reared since.

However, I would echo what others have said. No way would I pass such a horse on. I would do full medical investigations (probably have a bone scan done) and if nothing wrong was found, would either retire as a field ornament or PTS. From listening to what you say, your horse is extremely dangerous and I would not get back on board.
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I read your post Wagtail and jolly fine it was too.

Hope the vet told the OP to ditch that ruddy osteopath!
 
I bought a 13.2hh pony through a so called private sale a few years ago for my novice daughter (seller had contacted me via my wanted ad for novice ride, well mannered pony!). Needless to say when we got the pony home it was nuts rearing constantly straight up in hand. I didn't even attempt to get it tacked up. I contacted the Seller who said it had never reared before. This was definitely learned behaviour and not a one off. I had wondered if I was being conned and after a bit of delving found quite a few adverts from same person, obviously not a private seller!
To cut a long story short I contacted Trading Standards when talks broke down with the Seller as the pony wasn't fit for purpose. I threatened to go through the Small Claims Court to recover expenses, purchase cost and at that point the seller agreed to have the pony back. We did lose out financially having to transport the pony back at our cost, keep it for 2wks and shoe, worm it but I was just glad to get the problem off my hands. I certainly wouldn't have liked to have passed that pony onto anyone else as it was dangerous. I'm not sure what happened to it. Not sure what course of action I'd have taken if they hadn't of taken it back.
If OP hasn't already done so they need to bring this matter to the attention of the Dealer now. Genuine Dealers do have reputations to keep and would hopefully try to find a solution (probably at some financial loss to OP). I personally wouldn't throw any more money at this horse. As others have said trying to find out its history may give OP answers. Could be just a case of being over horsed or a long term injury/pain issue. It's certainly not the happy ever after the OP wanted. Anyone who has had horses for a number of years will perhaps have had something similar happen to them and can appreciate what OP is going through.
Please let us all know what happens.
 
YasandCrystal said:
Poor you and poor horse it's stressful for them changing homes and owners anyway, but so many changes. My WB had 4 previous owners in the previous 3 years and had moved yards 3 times with just the previous owner. It has taken him 2 years to settle fully. Even without a physical problem it will take your horse months of consistency to settle imo.

I hope you get to the bottom of it and are rewarded by him turning into a sweet loyal horse. If you are insured the full investigation is definately the route to go. Good luck!
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She is not insured if this is hind leg tendons, this forum publicly records that the horse has a pre-existing condition.
 
My mare has done a hind suspensory, nobody noticed until she was vetted which she failed obviously and she was sold to me for pocket money as a broodmare. Paradoxically on the same leg :eek: she degloved her hock (see back for pictures). When farrier came to trim her last week (about 2.5 years after suspensory) he could lift her back leg as normal which she had never been able to do before. So I'm guessing its cured then. There isn't much that 2 years in the field won't cure although I suspect the fact that the leg was rested due to other injury (ie no weight on it) really helped. I also looked into SWT and operations. My vet was not optimistic about prognosis though.
 
scarymare said:
My mare has done a hind suspensory, nobody noticed until she was vetted which she failed obviously and she was sold to me for pocket money as a broodmare. Paradoxically on the same leg :eek: she degloved her hock (see back for pictures). When farrier came to trim her last week (about 2.5 years after suspensory) he could lift her back leg as normal which she had never been able to do before. So I'm guessing its cured then. There isn't much that 2 years in the field won't cure although I suspect the fact that the leg was rested due to other injury (ie no weight on it) really helped. I also looked into SWT and operations. My vet was not optimistic about prognosis though.
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I think most vets are very reserved with giving a good prognosis, which to be fair they have to be as not to raise false hope or scupper any insurance time limitation too.

Talking to Sue Dyson when my WB was diagnosed with his chronic SI dysfunction it seems that many will not try Dr Green and simply retire or have the horse pts. I understand Dr Green is not straightforward for everyone, due to finances and an uncertain outcome etc, but it seems to work in so many cases I hear about.
 
cptrayes said:
She is not insured if this is hind leg tendons, this forum publicly records that the horse has a pre-existing condition.
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But it is anonymous, surely? A new horse of mine came in lame on a hind leg and a massively swollen hock. I had had him 3 weeks so just past the date of inception. Had him xrayed and he was found to have a bone fragment which the vet said was OCD rather than a fracture. Insurance accepted the claim even though if it was OCD (and he was 8) it must have been a pre existing condition.
 
OP I've no experience in hock/leg injuries or whatever, but just standing with you and expressing my extreme sympathy for you with all this. You don't need it.

Am hoping that everything will work out OK for you whatever you decide to do with this very problematic horse. Its everyone's worst nightmare, and I'm so sorry its happened.

Good luck anyway. Sorry can't contribute more. But just sending a hug basically.
 
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