New Horse with Shivers/EPSM - Diet Advice Needed Please

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thecanadianjen

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Hi everyone,

I'm an experienced horse owner, so I know what I'm getting into with this, before anyone questions that. I was introduced to a lovely lady that has a Dutch Warmblood male 3 yo with a very slight shiver in a rear leg. It's not extreme, though that's from limited interaction with him and her word. I had a horse with shivers when I was younger, and through a specialized diet our vet gave us she did very well and is now 32. However, she was a Quarter Horse and not incredibly tall and I've heard these things are less pronounced in non-draft and warmbloods and height makes a difference.

This new boy is as I said 3 yo, rising 4 and is roughly 16.2hh. He's sound in movement and does the rear leg lift if walked out of stall and immediately asked to reverse, when moving he seems quite sound and won't have a shiver. We did lunging with him for her to demonstrate to me his movements and he seemed ok, though he's lacking in muscle tone right now and I'll need to work on that.

So that's the background.

My question is this: I'm from Canada and so I'm not overly familiar with feed names(brands) and everything in the UK. I feel like I've dove into the deep end and I know it needs to be high fat/low starch diet but I am not 100% sure what to do with that. Is there a specific type of oil that is best? Is there a specific type of feed I should use as a base to hide it? I know some people have said Alfalfa Cubes and or Beet Pulp, but others have said beet pulp has too many sugars. Right now he's literally on no special diet and is grazing on grass as well as given hay and haylage. I'd like to work on his green breaking and overall muscle tone while also putting him on the appropriate diet as soon as he's in my hands (this week coming) and I'm trying to prepare so I have everything on hand before he arrives. But I genuinely need help. I've looked everywhere and while people list names, I'm not sure how much I should be giving him of each thing and I want to keep this boy happy and healthy for a very long life.

Adding to that - is there any specific boots/bandaging I should be looking into for him given this condition? My QH mare had to wear bandages a lot due to her uncoordinated putting the foot down after a shiver, so I'm not averse to it I'm just not sure if there's a recommended way.

Any assistance would be very greatly accepted and thanks in advance!
 
You seem sure the horse has shivers. In this country, that is not EPSM. Does he also have EPSM, as per your title? I can't help you with shivers (which is neurological, I think) but I have two with EPSM the muscle myopathy. They are well controlled by vitamin E, selenium and acetyl l carnetine
 
The current owner who I am taking him from has declared it as shivers, but I don't know if he's been tested for EPSM, and there is strong correlation between the two from my reading. Since I can't be sure, and shivers responds to the diet for EPSM I had to put both because I just don't know. I intend to get him checked when he's with me, but until then I just don't know which it is. He definitely has the shiver though in the one rear leg.

I was reading a bunch of articles that stated that the EPSM diet seems to do wonders for controlling shivers, so I'd love to know more about your diet and like the ratios you give your horses with EPSM? I feel a bit out of my depth haha.
 
I get the diet link, but one is a muscle malfunction and the other is, I'm pretty sure, a nerve malfunction.

For EPSM I feed my horses add lib low sugar haylage, a no sugar chaff feed with 6,000 iu of vitamin E power (synthetic. For some reason the natural stuff is absorbed more and less can be fed, But I think shiverers might need a lot more), and 12 g a day of alcar

I was silly last week and almost managed to make one of mine tie up, but on the whole I can treat them like completely normal horses.

Good luck with yours, he sounds as if he will be manageable if the shivers doesn't progress.
 
The two horses I have known with shivers were fine to ride, however eventually needed sedating to shoe.

Good luck , you are obviously quite taken with him :)
 
ycbm said:
You seem sure the horse has shivers. In this country, that is not EPSM. Does he also have EPSM, as per your title? I can't help you with shivers (which is neurological, I think) but I have two with EPSM the muscle myopathy. They are well controlled by vitamin E, selenium and acetyl l carnetine
Click to expand...

Shivers seems to be a catch-all term applied to horses that do something odd with their hindlegs, particularly if they are difficult when being asked to pick their hind-feet up for shoeing/trimming! Some may have a neurological basis, some may have EPSM/PSSM, some may actually turn out to have problems in the hocks, sacro-iliac region etc.

So first thing would be to have a vet check to see what may be causing the problem. Then if you feel it is likely to be EPSM/based then you have various options. Beet pulp is a good feedstuff IF it is unmollassed - the most easily sourced non-mollassed brand in the UK is Speedibeet - 5% sugar, almost zero starch. By contrast, mollassed beets such as SupaBeet are usually about 20% sugar. If you prefer to feed complete branded feeds, then the most suitable are probably Dodson & Horrell ERS Pellets and Saracen Releve - both these are designed for horses who need high calorie but low starch/sugar diets and have added Vitamin E/Selenium.
 
http://www.thehorse.com/articles/19316/shivers-in-the-horse-a-review

Shivers is neurological and EPSM is muscular. I think some confusion has arisen because the high vitamin E low sugar diet seems to help both of them, but they are two separate diseases with totally different mechanisms according to all the research I've read about.

OP, I think you need to get to grips with whether your horse has EPSM or not. There is an easy DNA test for the QH type, and a not too difficult biopsy from muscle around the tail if the horse comes back negative for the QH DNA test.
 
ycbm said:
http://www.thehorse.com/articles/19316/shivers-in-the-horse-a-review

Shivers is neurological and EPSM is muscular. I think some confusion has arisen because the high vitamin E low sugar diet seems to help both of them, but they are two separate diseases with totally different mechanisms according to all the research I've read about.

OP, I think you need to get to grips with whether your horse has EPSM or not. There is an easy DNA test for the QH type, and a not too difficult biopsy from muscle around the tail if the horse comes back negative for the QH DNA test.
Click to expand...

I have two horses, one is a QH who has shivers and is 32 years old and in retirement, has been on a special diet for many many years but she is in Canada, where I'm originally from living her days out in my parents farm. The horse I am questioning what to do with is a new horse, a 3 yo Dutch Warmblood gelding. As far as I'm aware there is no test for non-QH with EPSM, though I would gladly do one if there is a way.

But my question is not so much does he have it, because no one on a forum could tell me that, it's something a vet needs to look at. I'm questioning about the diet as I mentioned, because EPSM and shivers both respond to the same diet, so whether it's shivers or EPSM isn't important at the moment as I'm trying to get to grips with the feeding needs (and names of the feeds in the UK) of a young horse with shivers or EPSM until I can get the vet work done.

I get where you're coming from though and you're right, I do need to know, but really just wanted more info about diet as the vet work isn't going to happen until I get him with me next week :) Just being as prepared as I can. I have seen the shiver and it's most definitely not something like string halt. I didn't check his hocks or get much of a look in that area, so potentially it could be something different. But it demonstrated pretty much as what I've read in the medical journals about shivers and it is what his original owner said he has, so until I can get the vet I'm inclined to believe her.

For the diet I think you're right though as the vitamin e/selenium/etc seem to vary if they are EPSM or Shivers. Sigh! No simple answers. Until I can get him vetted, I'll just switch him to some of the oil, some reasonable amounts of vitamins and the unmollassed beet pulp and go from there.

Thanks!
 
TGM said:
Shivers seems to be a catch-all term applied to horses that do something odd with their hindlegs, particularly if they are difficult when being asked to pick their hind-feet up for shoeing/trimming! Some may have a neurological basis, some may have EPSM/PSSM, some may actually turn out to have problems in the hocks, sacro-iliac region etc.

So first thing would be to have a vet check to see what may be causing the problem. Then if you feel it is likely to be EPSM/based then you have various options. Beet pulp is a good feedstuff IF it is unmollassed - the most easily sourced non-mollassed brand in the UK is Speedibeet - 5% sugar, almost zero starch. By contrast, mollassed beets such as SupaBeet are usually about 20% sugar. If you prefer to feed complete branded feeds, then the most suitable are probably Dodson & Horrell ERS Pellets and Saracen Releve - both these are designed for horses who need high calorie but low starch/sugar diets and have added Vitamin E/Selenium.
Click to expand...

That's amazing, thank you! I'll give Speedibeet a try with him when I get him this week :)

Is there a particularly good source/brand/etc for the vitamin E and Selenium in the UK? I know only the American and Canadian brands and these seem more expensive here than I'm used to so want to make sure I'm looking in the right places haha. Thank you so much.
 
Progressive earth on eBay sell natural vitamin E and a vitamin E selenium mix.

If you are going to feed very high quantities of vitamin E be very careful not to exceed the RDA of selenium, it is very poisonous, if you didn't know.

There's a simple biopsy for EPSM, your vet just needs to take a couple of snips of muscle from round his tail. I think it will cost under £200 in total.

Good luck, he sounds like a good project :)
 
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Hi Tiddly, that's him! I did and am sadly just waiting a couple more days (want him now haha) until I can get him shipped to Manchester. He's absolutely lovely and I cannot wait to begin work with him.
 
ycbm said:
Progressive earth on eBay sell natural vitamin E and a vitamin E selenium mix.

If you are going to feed very high quantities of vitamin E be very careful not to exceed the RDA of selenium, it is very poisonous, if you didn't know.

There's a simple biopsy for EPSM, your vet just needs to take a couple of snips of muscle from round his tail. I think it will cost under £200 in total.

Good luck, he sounds like a good project :)
Click to expand...

It always makes me do a double take when vet costs here are so low! That in Canada would have been way way more. I'll just have to get the vet to come check him out, then we can figure out what to do long term for his diet/exercise. Luckily he doesn't appear to be deteriorating from all accounts and it's very minor so far so very hopeful he'll be very sound for a long time before being a retired pampered boy haha.

Thank you for that though, it's so good to get advice as to how to proceed. Felt like a fish out of water when I went to find info on what/where/when in the UK for horses like this. Amazing how things as simple as not knowing where to shop and the like can throw you.

Thanks again :)
 
ycbm said:
http://www.thehorse.com/articles/19316/shivers-in-the-horse-a-review

Shivers is neurological and EPSM is muscular.
Click to expand...

Actually that is not what the article above says, it lists various possible causes of 'shivers' but then later states 'no one knows what causes shivers'.

Lots of horses are labelled just on the basis that they display abnormal behaviour when being asked to lift their hindlegs. My husband, who is a farrier, has also noticed there are many horses who are not labelled 'shiverers' who display shiver-like behaviour.

Having spoken to a number of vets on the subject, and done a lot of research online, there still seems to be no conclusive opinion on exactly constitutes a 'shiverer' or what the real cause(s) is or are.
 
for EPSM I feed per day: (550kg) (in the UK)

200g micronised linseed (charnwoods)
1.5 lbs dry measure of coolstance copra which I soak and feed wet
1.5 lbs dengie alfalfa pellets which I soak

2 x 20ml scoops salt
70ml equimins metabalance supplement (per their website advanced complete would do also)

8000iu equimins vit E oil spread over 2 feeds per day

2 x 25ml scoops magnesium oxide

level 10ml scoop alcar (the most important item)

I also keep the horse over rugged, always use an exercise blanket when riding, ride daily always warming up slowly. On days like today when the horse had to be off work due to yesterdays horrendous weather we only walk. Any more could cause tying up. He has soaked hay ad lib, some grass and lives in an open building so he can wander around all night to keep moving.

If you are on FB there is a lot of info on "pssm forum" there are a lot of US and Canadian people on there as well as the UK ones. There is also diet info.

The test for PSSM (EPSM) type 1 in the UK costs £30 from animal genetics (hair test)

good luck with your horse. I saw him on the advert and he looked a lovely chap.
 
Shivers has been recognized by horse owners for more than a century and refers to a chronic nervous or neuromuscular condition
Click to expand...

=TGM;13170538]Actually that is not what the article above says, it lists various possible causes of 'shivers' but then later states 'no one knows what causes shivers'.
Click to expand...

I don't know what you are reading in that article, but for other people I have copied the very first sentence, and most other sources I can find say the same thing. Not knowing the cause does not mean not knowing that it's neurological.


OP, I can feel your excitement, keep us updated :)
 
ycbm said:
I don't know what you are reading in that article, but for other people I have copied the very first sentence, and most other sources I can find say the same thing. Not knowing the cause does not mean not knowing that it's neurological.
Click to expand...

This is what I was reading in the article:

"Another differential diagnosis in a possible shivers case would be upward fixation of the patella ...

Fibrotic myopathy is caused by scar tissue restriction along the thigh muscles subsequent to an injury. A horse with this problem slaps the hind limb down abruptly, and he doesn't raise it very high to the abdomen due to mechanical restriction by the scar tissue ...

"Stiff-horse syndrome" has been reported in Belgian horses; these horses show intermittent stiffness and spasms in the muscles of the lower back and hind limbs, with contractions triggered by voluntary movement, fright, or noise. These horses experience muscle hypertrophy (enlargement) rather than atrophy.,,

Another differential diagnosis is equine motor neuron disease (EMND) caused by vitamin E deficiency. ...

No specific lesions have been documented in horses with shivers in any portion of the central nervous system. While no one knows what causes shivers, it possibly has a neurologic pathology. Another suggestion has been some depletion of glycogen leading to muscle cramping ...

Some owners feed a high-fat, low-carbohydrate diet similar to that used to manage PSSM, and this might help early in the disease."

Basically, they don't really know!
 
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paddy555 said:
for EPSM I feed per day: (550kg) (in the UK)

200g micronised linseed (charnwoods)
1.5 lbs dry measure of coolstance copra which I soak and feed wet
1.5 lbs dengie alfalfa pellets which I soak

2 x 20ml scoops salt
70ml equimins metabalance supplement (per their website advanced complete would do also)

8000iu equimins vit E oil spread over 2 feeds per day

2 x 25ml scoops magnesium oxide

level 10ml scoop alcar (the most important item)

I also keep the horse over rugged, always use an exercise blanket when riding, ride daily always warming up slowly. On days like today when the horse had to be off work due to yesterdays horrendous weather we only walk. Any more could cause tying up. He has soaked hay ad lib, some grass and lives in an open building so he can wander around all night to keep moving.

If you are on FB there is a lot of info on "pssm forum" there are a lot of US and Canadian people on there as well as the UK ones. There is also diet info.

The test for PSSM (EPSM) type 1 in the UK costs £30 from animal genetics (hair test)

good luck with your horse. I saw him on the advert and he looked a lovely chap.
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Hi Paddy, thanks for that! I'll join the groups. I was wondering if you have found this to be better than using oils in the diet? I see on most EPSM diets that people use oils extensively.
 
thecanadianjen said:
Hi Paddy, thanks for that! I'll join the groups. I was wondering if you have found this to be better than using oils in the diet? I see on most EPSM diets that people use oils extensively.
Click to expand...

My horse is the fat type and a lot of oil would make matters worse plus he just wouldn't eat it. I use alcar instead. That is the wonder ingredient. It works quickly. Recently I stopped the alcar thinking it wasn't the cause of his improvement, within days he had gone backwards, much shorter stride, quieter and just not so good. A couple of days back on alcar and he was a different horse. It is relatively cheap, easy to feed (just a tiny scoop of white powder) and although it smells and tastes ghastly my horse appears to like it and never has any problem eating it.
 
paddy555 said:
My horse is the fat type and a lot of oil would make matters worse plus he just wouldn't eat it. I use alcar instead. That is the wonder ingredient. It works quickly. Recently I stopped the alcar thinking it wasn't the cause of his improvement, within days he had gone backwards, much shorter stride, quieter and just not so good. A couple of days back on alcar and he was a different horse. It is relatively cheap, easy to feed (just a tiny scoop of white powder) and although it smells and tastes ghastly my horse appears to like it and never has any problem eating it.
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This, in spades, but if your horse has no other signs of EPSM than having trouble lifting one back leg you'll possibly be wasting your money.

I'm very confused, OP, why did the owner think this horse has EPSM? What other symptoms has he got? Does he have solid muscles in his bum, tie up, get false colic, struggle to stand up after lying down, sweat excessively on exercise, lack stamina or struggle with his balance?

Whilst I accept that shivers is used by some people as a catch all term for a wavering back leg when lifted to shoe or to or pick out the foot, there is a definitive diagnosis for EPSM.

Having said that, my experience is that if the alcar works, it will work in days, so you'll only need to spend under £20 on alcar to find out, so there's not much to lose by trying it.
 
I think that whatever your horse's problem is called your solution is going to be management. Attaching a name to it might be nice but may be less relevant if you can manage it. Of course if you cannot control it by management you may have to get a vet diagnosis.

The EPSM diet/exercise/warmth/ warming up etc etc is good for any horse not just EPSM ones. I use it for all of mine. I hope you will continue to post as to how your new horse does. I was interested in his advert (didn't want him) and how he could turn out.
 
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