new house/yard/turnout questions... can you help?!

Bowen4Horses

Bowen4Horses

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Hiya

After literally YEARS of hunting, we have eventually found our dream house. There is one small problem... it doesn't have the horsey facilities i wanted. Everything else is perfect... however, we were hoping for 5-10acres, with stable block etc. Pref a manege too...

This house has only 1.5 acres, of which about 1 acre could be turned into a paddock. It also has no stables etc.
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I have a 15.1 horsey, who isn't a very good doer. I was also planning on getting the kids a Section A (who would also keep my horse company as he's leaving his friends at the livery yard).

Now, i imagine that once we're moved in, we'll make friends with the local farmers/yard owners and will be able to rent some further land. but this will take some time... and i want to know everyone's opinions on whether it is feasible for me to think we can keep a horse and a pony on 1 acre without wrecking it, or starving them.

I'd have to build some stables too, as my horse isn't a fan of 24/7 turnout (i know, he's odd).
can anyone recommend a good (yet cheap) way of doing this? does anyone have any idea to rough cost? eg for 3 stables, tack room, hay barn with a fair amount of hard standing...? we have minimal amount of spare money... if any! but my hubby can do a fair amount of the labour himself.
oh, and one more thing... do people get turned down for planning for stables ever? is it too risky to buy the house without knowing for sure we'd get planning for the stables?


sorry for the million questions... my head is spinning! and i didn't sleep last night with anxiety about it... i need to put in an offer today before someone else buys it!

tea and biscuits if you get this far without nodding off. and i'll throw in a mini flapjack for any helpful responses....
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People get turned down for building stabling every day. You should speak to the local planners to gauge their thoughts before going any further with the purchase (perhaps??).

No idea on costs - but again, I'd go straight to adjoining land owners sooner rather than later and ask them about the prospect of renting acreage of them.
 
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People get turned down for building stabling every day. You should speak to the local planners to gauge their thoughts before going any further with the purchase (perhaps??).

No idea on costs - but again, I'd go straight to adjoining land owners sooner rather than later and ask them about the prospect of renting acreage of them.

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ooh, do you think i can ring the planning people for a chat without actually owning the house? i didn't even think of that! i'll try that. it's in a (very) rural area, with no immediate neighbours. but... the house is grade 2 listed... so i wonder if that makes a difference?
 
It's very hard to get planning permission for anything in some places, it depends a lot on the neighbours, if they complain you have no chance! I speak from experience!!

I would do the research before you buy, or look nearby for livery.

I would think 1 acre is a bit small for 2 neddies all year, maybe if you had a school or hard surface area for turnout in the winter, your grass will get churned up in the winter and no time to rest in the summer.
 
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the house is grade 2 listed... so i wonder if that makes a difference

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Massive difference, I'd say
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My personal view is that an acre for two is too small given that you'd probably want to save some of that for the winter aswell.

Sometimes a house just steals your heart but could you replicate things you love about it elsewhere in a house with more land ?
 
you can apply for planning permission before you own a property. it might be well worth you asking for a chat with the planners to find out their likelihood of allowing "horseyculture" in that specific area.
an acre is fine, as long as you don't mind haying all year round. fwiw i have about 6 acres and 4 horses, and have had to hay them all this summer, there just isn't enough grass. plus side is there's less area to poo-pick, spray, etc, you can keep small paddocks immaculate!
field shelters on skids are a good idea. you can get ones with gates/fronts on too so you end up with moveable stables. if planners are tricky you might be more likely to get permission for these...
permanent stables - you need full permission. the concrete base (which most people choose) is a few thousand upwards. don't forget you'll need some storage for hay as well as tackroom, feedroom, stables.
i have a 'car port' here (no planning permission requd) which is also hay storage area, 12' x 10' ish with open front and back (backs up to hedge) stores about 50 hay bales at a time, that might help a bit!
don't forget cost of fencing, elec fencing is the best and cheapest in the long run imho, having had all sorts. p&r looks nice but once they start eating it, it costs a fortune to replace and a lot of work to keep looking good!
btw, what's the road to the house like? because even if the house is wonderful, if the road is a rat-run and you end up feeling as if you are dicing with death every time you venture outside the gates on a horse (even one that's good in traffic!), it's not worth it. it's worth going at diff times of day and checking. i moved from my last place (perfect in every other possible way) because of this...
v best of luck, hope you get your dream home!
 
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I would think 1 acre is a bit small for 2 neddies all year, maybe if you had a school or hard surface area for turnout in the winter, your grass will get churned up in the winter and no time to rest in the summer.

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this is what i thought. even if i bring them in every night, it's still small isn't it? i wonder how i'd get the local landowner's details before buying the house... it is SO rural, i can't imagine there being a problem with renting land. but, it's a risk...

and i can't even plan on bringing them in every night... as i don't even know if i can have stables...

i'm trying to avoid livery as that's the reason i'm dragging the family out into the sticks... so i can have my darling Raff at home! but there is defo a livery yard down the road. hey, maybe they'll rent a field out...?
 
Since, in fact, I've been through the exact same thought process as you (in roughly the same area of England!), let me share my thoughts!

First of all, 1.5 acres just ain't a lot of land. It might be enough for a teeny pony but probably not a horse and definitely not two. If you're in Cambridgeshire, chances are that it will be heavy clay and therefore it will only take 1 wet winter to destroy the grazing and allow the buttercup to take hold and then you're stuffed and have to feed hay all year as your grazing disintegrates before your eyes. I speak from bitter experience - as my two managed to decimate a good four acres in this manner and eventually we had to move. If you want to PM me roughly where your prospective house is, I might know a few farmers round there (have spoken to lots in my great search for land!).

Cost of stabling - for 3 stables and tackroom, the concete base will be about £5000. This is the most important bit - get it done by someone reputable, don't try to do it yourself unless you're really sure what you're doing. You need the proper farming concrete that will withstand urine and you also need to make sure it has a drop off to allow drainage. The cost of 3 stables, plus tackroom, plus hay barn is at least £8-9K, that's the cheapest I've found so far.

Planning - again depends on the area but they are extremely picky about whether it can be seen from the road, whether there is a genuine need (they tend to take the view that horses do not NEED stables), how you dispose of your muckheap, where does the foul water drain to etc? You can send a brief letter and some scale drawings to your local planning office and they will give you a quick appraisal but anything too big, too unnecessary, in my experience gets turned down. Definitely don't skimp here - get the professionals to do it for you. That gives you the best chance of getting permission.

Menage - again planning problems but also quite expensive and if you don't have land, that basically means you can't do it.
 
We have 2 ponies and a shetland on 2 acres of land and it is a struggle to be honest! BUT it isn't impossible!!! 24/7 turnout wouldn't be an option anyway or you'd have nothing left at all for winter! I have a barn and 2 stables, they all come in every night to wander in and out of the barn/stables with hay. You can get a barn/stables on skids which is classed as mobile and doesn't need planning permission. google mobile stables/field shelter. Make sure you have a concrete area though to put it on! I did actually have my boy at livery over winter last year which made it easier on the land! He's staying at home this year though as I can now go up the road and hire the school and in the summer have some of the most amazing hacking! You will soon work out a routine and ways of making things easier! My mare has laminitis now so even if I had 100 acres she couldn't go on it!! If you need any other tips, PM me :-)
 
This has happened to us, i would have loved a menage etc, but we've made it work out
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If you go in for planing, make sure you appeal to their better side. Be polite, invite them round for a cup of tea and show them ideas of the stables etc. Ask them what they would PREFER you to build the stables in, what fencing they would prefer you to use,
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xx
 
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Since, in fact, I've been through the exact same thought process as you (in roughly the same area of England!), let me share my thoughts!

First of all, 1.5 acres just ain't a lot of land. It might be enough for a teeny pony but probably not a horse and definitely not two. If you're in Cambridgeshire, chances are that it will be heavy clay and therefore it will only take 1 wet winter to destroy the grazing and allow the buttercup to take hold and then you're stuffed and have to feed hay all year as your grazing disintegrates before your eyes. I speak from bitter experience - as my two managed to decimate a good four acres in this manner and eventually we had to move. If you want to PM me roughly where your prospective house is, I might know a few farmers round there (have spoken to lots in my great search for land!).

Cost of stabling - for 3 stables and tackroom, the concete base will be about £5000. This is the most important bit - get it done by someone reputable, don't try to do it yourself unless you're really sure what you're doing. You need the proper farming concrete that will withstand urine and you also need to make sure it has a drop off to allow drainage. The cost of 3 stables, plus tackroom, plus hay barn is at least £8-9K, that's the cheapest I've found so far.

Planning - again depends on the area but they are extremely picky about whether it can be seen from the road, whether there is a genuine need (they tend to take the view that horses do not NEED stables), how you dispose of your muckheap, where does the foul water drain to etc? You can send a brief letter and some scale drawings to your local planning office and they will give you a quick appraisal but anything too big, too unnecessary, in my experience gets turned down. Definitely don't skimp here - get the professionals to do it for you. That gives you the best chance of getting permission.


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we're looking up in fenland where the land is cheap.. north of wisbech.

jeeez.... the concrete base and stables are well expensive! eek! i wonder if i'd be able to use the existing outbuildings instead... i think they used to be stables (but must have been for very small ponies as doorway is low - could my horse learn to duck as he goes through the door? there is also a car port type thing there already with a concrete base...
do i need planning permission to use the outbuilding as a stable?

oh god, the house is seriously perfect... the only one we've loved... but... the reason we originally decided to move was to have the horse at home.. and get the kids a pony... i'm going to cry. or maybe howl and sob.
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perhaps i could get a shetland instead of a section a?
perhaps i could take them out for a lot of 'in hand' walking/grazing down the local lanes...?
perhaps i could knock the garden through into the paddock. and the chicken area. and the duck pond. and the veg patch?

oh bums.
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We bought a smallholding with 5 acres. The land has not been looked after at all so there should be plenty but there's not. I thought the local farmers wouldn't mind renting some land but they do not want to know, they do not want horses 'wrecking' their land. Luckily my friend has a big farm 2 miles away but its still quite far considering they are all supposed to be at home!!! 2 at home and 2 there. So i would check about renting land etc first!
 
I have 2 on two and a half acres, they have about three quarters of an acre in the winter, last year were out all day every day except for 2 or 3 days when the rain was particularly bad, and then they went out for a couple of hours. They presently have the run of a 2 acre field and this is too much for them, they can't keep it down.
The grade 2 listing makes a difference, as you must not detract from that, so suggest you speak to planning officer, also consider the option of buying field shelters, these are just like stables with doors but can be moved around on skids. This may be your way out of the planning issue, but I think sometimes there are problems with these. As has been said give your local council a call and discuss.
 
It is usually very difficult to rent grazing for horses so investigate this before you buy if it this is essential for you.
Ring the local farmers.
Grade 2 listed will make planning more difficult but just ring your local planning office and talk to them. you don't have to own the house to ask them. We passed on a grade 2 house in Cambridgeshire because they would not have allowed stables or manege.The planners very approachable though.
 
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do i need planning permission to use the outbuilding as a stable

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Probably. Change of use....
 
Can I ask 'how' you've been house hunting??

Have you been looking for a house with a small bit of land - or specifically an agricultrual property???
 
my home is A listed, i didnt have any problems with planning for my yard that i had built and various other things, although being listed you do have to spend a lot more money and it takes a lot longer in getting any work done., i dont think the house your looking at has enough land for what you want to do . always buy a lot more land than you think you will need ! , talk to planning before you buy the property....
 
We moved from Cambridgeshire to Lincolnshire just over 18 months ago with one of the main aims being to keep the horses at home. There were 3 factors for us - location, land and house. Of those 3, the only one you can really change is the house. You might be able to buy/rent more land, but not guaranteed. No harm asking, but minds might change between now and purchase.

Nowhere is perfect. Our house is on a bad bend on a country but busy road (motorbikers paradise), but we knew that and it was one of the reasons I suppose the house was the price it was. It is however, perfect for travel to work, so ok. You can trailer horses out.

The house is a 3 bed cottage which needed work. Again, we knew that and because the house was the price it was, we could afford to change it to our taste, which we are doing. We will probably even have enough for an extension. So that's ok.

But the winning factor was it has 11 acres, 4 stables and was already electric fenced in front of hedges. We could move the horses (4 of them) and turn them out immediately. They had stables to go in. We can strip graze the land in summer and as they are not in work/in light work, they only need grass half the year (obviously would be different if you were competing etc, but still mainly grass). You can take hay off the 5 or so acres the horses don't need. In the winter, we rug them up well and they go out every day (with field shelter - which they rarely use in winter) on the whole acreage. There is enough that it doesn't get poached except at the gates, but you get that anywhere. Land gets harrowed and rolled just before spring

Go for the land every time if you want to keep horses is my view. My life is just so much easier and cheaper, I can't tell you. No point to my mind having a lovely house you've no time to enjoy because you're spending all your time moving horses, washing mud off etc, etc. We sit outside almost every night just watching the horses graze and wildlife spotting. Better than the telly! I know you say yours doesn't like being out much, which is fair enough, but we now have trouble getting ours in! Good stables, fencing and concrete cost an arm and a leg from scratch.

I just felt I had to say something as we were in your position and saw lovely houses with little land when we were looking, but I can honestly say without a doubt we don't regret our decision.
 
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Can I ask 'how' you've been house hunting??

Have you been looking for a house with a small bit of land - or specifically an agricultrual property???

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we've looked at houses with land, equestrian properties, agricultural properties, falling down houses, land with planning, barns to convert, etc etc.

our search area was originally about a 5 mile radius of Ely. this has increased and increased to about 40 mile radius. we have literally viewed HUNDREDS of houses. i'm on first name terms with almost every estate agent in the area (and some national ones)... they are starting to tire of me now...

i have previously seen 2 houses i liked. with the first one, the vendor decided he actually wanted 30k over the asking price. and the second one sold to a cash buyer. both had land, stables, manege etc
i only liked those two... this one i LOVE. it's the first house we've fallen in love with. i can sacrifice the manege as my friend lives 2 miles away and has one. and i can sacrifice the posh stable block... but still need enough land for him to live (and have a friend - i don't want him to have to live alone) and also somewhere to put him when he needs to come in. he doesn't live out 24/7 as he likes the comfort of a stable every now and again. i bring him in for bed about once or twice a week at the moment, but it will be every day in the winter.

oh crap. maybe i do need to pay a visit to the livery yard down the road from there. it's only about 300 metres away...

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If you really really love the house and the local livery yards are nice, perhaps you could have the horses at home a few months a year once you have built the paddock? If you don't find grazing to rent?
 
You could get one of those field shelters which are made out of heavy duty fabric (can't remember the name of the manufacturer). No planning permission required and you could always adapt it to close your boy in there at night. You have the option of closing one end off or leaving it open so horses can walk straight through. If you closed the end of I'm sure you could work out a way to close the other end too. Could put rubber mats and bedding in there as well.

Re the land, that really isn't much but as long as you were prepared to feed hay year round it isn't completely out of the question.

Personally I'd prefer more land though if I'm being honest. The set up Cariad mentions sounds blissful to me.
 
Thank you for your "blissful" comment, as she comes in from watching the barn owl, the baby rabbits playing and the moorhen and her brood, with the swallows swooping overhead! And the horses munching away, of course! It does have it's downside in that it's a lot of land to manage, so we spend a lot of time strimming and killing nettles and thistles, but fortunately my horses are all elderly and don't need high level grazing, hay and all the rest of it. But I still say that you should go for as much land as you can possibly afford and let the rest follow. There is a farming saying about land -"They're not making any more of it", which is entirely true and I don't think you'll lose out on land in the long run in financial terms, whereas houses are not always to everyone's taste.
 
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