New pony lame - vet / farrier conflicting views... Advice please

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Jericho

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Bought a 14 yr old pony at end of June for my 9 yr old daughter to do pony club on. Had about 5 weeks of riding (3-4 times a week, hacking, schooling, jumping) inc pc mini camp at the end of july and have been taking it fairly easy as conscious of the hard ground, however to be fair we have had rain and the ground during the time pony was being ridden was actually really good. Pony seemed off 2 weeks ago on foreleg, didn't improve for a couple of days and then hopping lame on day 4. Called vet, she said its abscess, definite sore point on sole, took shoe off but couldn't find the abscess. Said limit turnout, poultice for 3 days and bute. Revisit in a week if no better. No evidence of an abscess bursting in that time, coronet band hot. Farrier came day 6 to take a look as no evidence of abscess bursting and was advised farrier better. He said def not an abscess, nor laminitis, slightly sore when used the toe pinchers and trot up about 3/10ths lame. Coronet band still hot. He said pulled muscle some where or bruised sole, better to put shoe back on as will protect her sole, keep her out and no bute if she is quiet in field and let her work through it. No point in calling vet as they will just advise bute and box rest again. We have been away for 5 days with strict instructions to holiday cover to ring vet if she was concerned ie lame in walk - she said the pony has ambled round quite happy and certainly not in obvious pain so didn't feel the need to call vet. However get home today, pony trots over and she is still lame and no improvement from a week ago.

What would you do? Am on verge of calling vet again and calling for xrays, full lameness work up as just want to know what is wrong. Daughter is distraught over new pony being lame, I am rather peeved off too having searched long and hard for said pony, had the pony 5 stage vetted, been very diligent in protecting her legs etc (I know it's not her fault, bless her) but keep hearing my farriers words of 'waste of money calling vet' and vet isn't going to magically make her better, most lameness comes from the foot etc etc so to just rest - but over 2 weeks and no improvement?!
 
It could be an abscess that is trying to work it's way out at the coronet band. I don't know why the Vet told you to Bute the horse if they suspected an abscess as it will suppress it but not fix it, as Bute is a nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drug. I don't box rest for abscesses.

If you are worried get a second opinion from a different Vet.
 
a couple of things come to mind.

Bute isn't always good for abcesses as you kind of need the inflammation in order for it to burst out (ditto I think some people prefer to keep the horse out and moving if possible). It could therefore still be an abscess IMO, especially as coronet band hot/reacts to hoof testers.

Your farrier seems to have come up with 2 very different diagnoses, fwiw my vet was sure Frank's lameness was shoulder (it was foot ;) ).

I would speak to your vet but would suspect it's a grumbling abscess from what you've said.
 
Thanks for replying... So if I treat for abscess should I wet poultice and wrap up and turnout still? Does the shoe need to come off again to poultice? Farrier was definite it wasn't abscess, more a bruised sole or just a muscle ( she reacted a bit on all four hooves with toe pincers - farrier said that some horses are just a bit sensitive to the test but don't like the sound of that myself!) I would really like the pony to go barefoot ultimately but now right in the middle of Pc /school holidays wasn't a good time to start!
 
I'd want the horse nerve blocked at this stage and possibly x rayed, but if it blocks to foot, could be abscess. If it blocks higher up then needs further investigation
 
If it isn't 100% in foot if reacting a bit in all I think I'd err on the side of working it up a bit more so you know what/where you are dealing with.
 
One of mine had an abscess a few years ago, which was quite high up in his foot. The vet said bute and leave out. The horse didn't improve over a week or so, so I insisted on a full set of x-rays. The abscess burst out the coronet band the day after I'd had him in for the expensive x-rays. The point of the bute is to keep them comfortable - the movement of being out helped to work the abscess up and out. I wish I had just listened to the vet, but I was convinced the horse had a fractured pedal bone! Mine are all barefoot so no shoe (or farrier) to complicate matters.
 
I haven't met a single Vet who prescribes bute for abscesses even when I have been so worried about the poor horse hobbling about. They basically said the bute wont touch the pain, but it will suppress the abscess and make the whole thing drag on longer.

That is how it was explained to me anyway. :)
 
Faracat said:
I haven't met a single Vet who prescribes bute for abscesses even when I have been so worried about the poor horse hobbling about. They basically said the bute wont touch the pain, but it will suppress the abscess and make the whole thing drag on longer.

That is how it was explained to me anyway. :)
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Yep, same for me.

Is there absolutely no heat in the leg at all, no swelling??
 
You should hot tub with epsom salts, draws abscess out, and poultice with hot wet animalintex for 5 days changing and tubbing daily, no bute, walk out in hand for a good 30 mins will help abscess shift, if it was bruising you would see an improvement in that time, farrier would have seen if pony has a corn where the shoe could be sitting, so if no improvement after 5 days, dry poultice and get vet to nerve block, go from there.
 
putasocinit said:
You should hot tub with epsom salts, draws abscess out, and poultice with hot wet animalintex for 5 days changing and tubbing daily, no bute, walk out in hand for a good 30 mins will help abscess shift, if it was bruising you would see an improvement in that time, farrier would have seen if pony has a corn where the shoe could be sitting, so if no improvement after 5 days, dry poultice and get vet to nerve block, go from there.
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I agree with this but would add that when you poultice make sure you poultice the coronary band at the point that it is hot. I have had three abscesses burst at the coronary band in the last two years and they can be a nightmare when the exit wound grows down but better out than in.
 
Again, thanks for replies. Pucasocinit - that sounds like a good plan. There has been some swelling around fetlock but vet said this was normal, noticeably less today and coronet band less hot too. Have hot poulticed the sole twice today once this morning and turned her out with poultice boot on, nothing , no black gunk etc on the poultice when I took it off this evening. Re applied hot poultice this evening and have left her in on a deep shavings bed. Still just as lame and there is nothing 'unusual' on the sole or coronary band at all. Will poultice/hot tub foot and the c band tomorrow as well.
 
Jericho said:
Thanks for replying... So if I treat for abscess should I wet poultice and wrap up and turnout still? Does the shoe need to come off again to poultice? Farrier was definite it wasn't abscess, more a bruised sole or just a muscle ( she reacted a bit on all four hooves with toe pincers - farrier said that some horses are just a bit sensitive to the test but don't like the sound of that myself!) I would really like the pony to go barefoot ultimately but now right in the middle of Pc /school holidays wasn't a good time to start!
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I may be a bit controversial here but I would say that neither your vet or your farrier seem to be giving you the best advice here. Everyone is correct re the bute 'if' its an abcess, however, I suspect that often bute is prescribed by vets not because they do not know this, but because they are duty bound to ensure the horse is not in pain and sometimes feel that this will help with that. With regards to the farrier, he can not say for certain this is not an abcess... How many times have we heard this, suspected abcess, hole dug out of horses hoof, poulticing, hot tubbing... Nothing... Everyone is 200% certain that this is no abcess and then the next day it explodes and there is a volcano of puss erupting from the hoof. So to sum up, your farrier (unless he has X-ray eyes) can not be certain that this is no abcess.
 
Jericho said:
Bought a 14 yr old pony at end of June for my 9 yr old daughter to do pony club on. Had about 5 weeks of riding (3-4 times a week, hacking, schooling, jumping) inc pc mini camp at the end of july and have been taking it fairly easy as conscious of the hard ground, however to be fair we have had rain and the ground during the time pony was being ridden was actually really good. Pony seemed off 2 weeks ago on foreleg, didn't improve for a couple of days and then hopping lame on day 4. Called vet, she said its abscess, definite sore point on sole, took shoe off but couldn't find the abscess. Said limit turnout, poultice for 3 days and bute. Revisit in a week if no better. No evidence of an abscess bursting in that time, coronet band hot. Farrier came day 6 to take a look as no evidence of abscess bursting and was advised farrier better. He said def not an abscess, nor laminitis, slightly sore when used the toe pinchers and trot up about 3/10ths lame. Coronet band still hot. He said pulled muscle some where or bruised sole, better to put shoe back on as will protect her sole, keep her out and no bute if she is quiet in field and let her work through it. No point in calling vet as they will just advise bute and box rest again. We have been away for 5 days with strict instructions to holiday cover to ring vet if she was concerned ie lame in walk - she said the pony has ambled round quite happy and certainly not in obvious pain so didn't feel the need to call vet. However get home today, pony trots over and she is still lame and no improvement from a week ago.

What would you do? Am on verge of calling vet again and calling for xrays, full lameness work up as just want to know what is wrong. Daughter is distraught over new pony being lame, I am rather peeved off too having searched long and hard for said pony, had the pony 5 stage vetted, been very diligent in protecting her legs etc (I know it's not her fault, bless her) but keep hearing my farriers words of 'waste of money calling vet' and vet isn't going to magically make her better, most lameness comes from the foot etc etc so to just rest - but over 2 weeks and no improvement?!
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I'm sorry to type this but you cannot rule out laminitis imho. Hoof/hooves will be sore with hoof testers (horrid things btw.) in laminitis.

Abscesses are also quite common in laminitis.

ps. I would treat as if it was laminitis... soaked hay, off grass etc.
http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/ddt-overview/ddt-diet

If you follow the Emergency diet strictly (no extras whatsoever) you should see some improvement in days if it is laminitis.
 
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I did think it might be laminitis Amandap as have lots of experience of this and you are right it might well be and manage accordingly. My gut says its not as the pony is striding out well in walk and shows no shifting or pointing nor heat in other foot. Sshe is in at night on deep shavings, is fed tightly netted soaked very old hay, a tiny amount of purefeeds chaff feed to mix vits in and out during the day on brown scorched grazing (no green anywhere!) and has since we bought her as try to manage all my horses for lami. Watching her today she obviously has a sensitive spot somewhere as in trot she looks fine but then goes eeek ouch ouch when she steps on rough ground. Off to hot tub and re poultice again!!
 
Actually I must admit I misread your post. For 4th day I read 4 legs. I'm off for new specs, I expect it is worse and a new brain is required though. Doh!

Good luck with the tubbing.
 
Vet out tomorrow and nerve blocking. Questioned the use of bute and she said as pony was quite a lot of pain on that foot at the time she saw her and that movement on an abscess is good if the use of bute prevented pain and encouraged movement then that was good. Kinda makes sense although she agreed that it can go the other way of suppressing the abscess. Will update tomorrow, meanwhile pony has been out on starvation paddock (as lots of rain overnight may cause flush in grass!)is in tonight with a poultice on sole and on coronet band (still no evidence of anything bursting), soaked hay, deep bed - am covering all bases now!
 
Update for anyone interested. Vet came, 3/10ths lame, 5/10ths on circle, nerve blocked foot and pony sound. No heat in foot or coronet band, no swelling anywhere else. Vet advised leave out and will X-ray next week if still no improvement. Vet didn't make any diagnosis at this point, said could be an abscess or bruised sole but would have expected some improvement/changes over the period. Panicking now that it is more serious...
 
I would be looking for an xray if it was me...how long has it been now?
My lad was the same on one foot some years back and vet and farrier thought abcess. I ended up poulticing for nearly three weeks with vet insistent it was abcess and in the end I said enough is enough, lets do X-ray. It turned out to be laminitis and I should have followed my gut instinct and treated it accordingly from the start...but hey ho, we survived but it was frustrating to waste three weeks when I could have potentially caught it earlier.
 
Might be a case to get some thermal imaging done on the legs to help identify where problem is located -probably cheaper than getting xrays done.
 
pottamus said:
I would be looking for an xray if it was me...how long has it been now?
My lad was the same on one foot some years back and vet and farrier thought abcess. I ended up poulticing for nearly three weeks with vet insistent it was abcess and in the end I said enough is enough, lets do X-ray. It turned out to be laminitis and I should have followed my gut instinct and treated it accordingly from the start...but hey ho, we survived but it was frustrating to waste three weeks when I could have potentially caught it earlier.
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So many things keep running through my mind as to what it could be from laminitis to a fractured pedal bone. I don't think it is lami - at the time she went lame she was on a scorched grass turnout and has a handful of chaff to mix vits in with. She was quite fit and not over weight at the time and there is no heat and no bounding pulse in that hoof or others and this was confirmed by both vet (twice) and farrier. She also didnt improve when kn box rest and soaked hay fir a few days. I guess it could have been concussive lami but again the ground she had been worked on was quite soft apart one hack we went on on the roads. We are off to vets on Thursday for X-rays to see if that shows anything. I have a pessimistic view that it is a fracture of pedal bone based on info and have heard and other peoples experience. She had put in a dirty refusal at a jump on grass (really slides into it) and I wonder if she did it then. The fact that there has been so little improvement or deterioration seems to support the theory.
 
Common things are common! Abcess is the most likely and the history or grumbling lameness then hobbling on 3 legs is classic. The abcess then often dissapates a bit and they go back to grumbling lameness and taken even longer to burst.

It's exactly the same as my friends pony. A bit 'off' then hopping lame then back to a bit off. Found a heel abcess (at the seat of the corn) after 2 weeks (and some digging)and he was better but back to a bit off then hopping lame a few days later. Eventually the farrier went properly digging (stopped previously when found abcess) and found it went deeper than originally though and had only partially drained.

Friend was hysterical doom and gloom, broken leg etc but I managed to persuade her to just wait it out.
 
Does the pony have a noticeable digital pulse? That indicates congestion in the foot and helps to diagnose abcesses and lamimitis which as has been said can co-occur. Abcesses can grumble away for a while but as a farriers OH I would say you really don't want all that infection hanging around longer than necessary. Maybe a second opinion-in case it's something else?
 
No, they don't always show on xray, esp if they've dissipate a little.

At the moment treat her like a broken bone as you don't yet know. Xrays will rule that out. Box rest, laminitic diet and polticing will cover most eventualities.
 
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