New puppy will need surgery - where do we stand with the breeder?

Redders said:
I can’t comment on cases I haven’t actually seen. But the photos don’t show the molars, which the estimate shows as requiring extraction, They are usually the worst affected so I couldn’t say as I can’t see them. There appears to be greying between the 102 and 103 and gum recession by the blunted gingival margin, which could indicate periodontal disease and mobility of those teeth - that would require extraction if so. Also I can’t diagnose from a photo.
the estimate also includes a pre GA blood test, a good idea to do for any age, and I recommend doing them after age 6/7/8 depending on breed, and it includes fluid therapy, I recommend that for longer procedures , known history of chronic illness or in older pets. You don’t have to have those bits if you don’t want to but you then can’t complain if something wasn’t picked up on the bloods because they weren’t taken. That’s your choice.
I think it’s pretty unfair to throw a grievance you clearly have with your vet at me. Have a problem with them, bring it up with them, that is your choice and your right.
Did they force you to have the treatment? Or did they give you their professional assessment and recommendations with an estimate of what that may cost?
The vet may have noticed something on the clinical exam that indicates hip pain and discussed the possibility of ruling it out (hip dysplasia causes early onset OA so isn’t just noticed when they are young pups)
Broken teeth and dental disease is a source of chronic pain in pets and they just don’t show the signs of it. Teeth are a fair bit of surgical work to remove, especially canines and molars, they take quite a long time therefore they cost a fair bit.
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You missed the bit where he was back a few months later and a second vet from the same practice said there was no treatment for either needed. They didn't find any hip dysplasia, they said he had good teeth. That was my point.

I have excellent vets. The horse vets is a private practice, I have only great things to say about them. The dogs' vets have been excellent, but now have been taken over by a chain. I now use them for routine stuff but would seek a second opinion for anything else.

I am unsure how I could be anything but doubtful when the second vet contradicted the first. I queried it, after they pronounced the dog fit and well. They had a second look and were ahem-ing but still recommended no treatment was necessary.

I did find that very confusing!

ETA - I particularly commended my vets when they saved Rigs and didn't begrudge the £1650 it cost. Nor the £1,400 when the other dog was ill. Both were excellent treatments, with me advised all the way. It is only since the dog vets were taken over by a chain that I have had the issue. They now employ young vets who seem to work 6 days a week, and they do not seem as happy in their work. One told me how tired she was with all of the hours they required.

Another ETA - I'm also unsure why you are taking it personally that some people think they have had poor service from their vet. I don't think anyone has criticised you as a vet? I used to be in the Police and believe I and my immediate colleagues did a good job. However, I also accept that there are some cr@p ones out there. When someone criticises, I do wonder if they have genuinely met a bad one or if they merely didn't fully appreciate the situation, but I don't take it personally. I tend to think they didn't understand but have seen some pretty high profile cases that have exposed corrupt ones. Just like with vets, I have seen the results of vets who have been corrupt.

I also don't think that there are 2 states of either 'corrupt' or not corrupt. There are various shades of grey where something can be on opinion.
 
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Cortez said:
I recently (last July) had a dog with a major emergency dental issue requiring two GA's, wiring/wire removal, molar extraction, AB's, pain relief, etc., etc. Total cost: €328 and I have no insurance. The small animal vet practice that I use is fairly large, modern, competent, well equipped. I've used them for over 15 years. I wonder why there is so much disparity in costs between fees in the UK and European* vets?

*Spanish vets charge roughly the same as Irish ones.
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There’s huge disparity within small towns. Daisy’s tooth extraction last year was around £200. A neighbouring vets would have charged three times that.
 
Red-1 said:
You missed the bit where he was back a few months later and a second vet from the same practice said there was no treatment for either needed. They didn't find any hip dysplasia, they said he had good teeth. That was my point.

I have excellent vets. The horse vets is a private practice, I have only great things to say about them. The dogs' vets have been excellent, but now have been taken over by a chain. I now use them for routine stuff but would seek a second opinion for anything else.

I am unsure how I could be anything but doubtful when the second vet contradicted the first. I queried it, after they pronounced the dog fit and well. They had a second look and were ahem-ing but still recommended no treatment was necessary.

I did find that very confusing!

ETA - I particularly commended my vets when they saved Rigs and didn't begrudge the £1650 it cost. Nor the £1,400 when the other dog was ill. Both were excellent treatments, with me advised all the way. It is only since the dog vets were taken over by a chain that I have had the issue. They now employ young vets who seem to work 6 days a week, and they do not seem as happy in their work. One told me how tired she was with all of the hours they required.

Another ETA - I'm also unsure why you are taking it personally that some people think they have had poor service from their vet. I don't think anyone has criticised you as a vet? I used to be in the Police and believe I and my immediate colleagues did a good job. However, I also accept that there are some cr@p ones out there. When someone criticises, I do wonder if they have genuinely met a bad one or if they merely didn't fully appreciate the situation, but I don't take it personally. I tend to think they didn't understand but have seen some pretty high profile cases that have exposed corrupt ones. Just like with vets, I have seen the results of vets who have been corrupt.

I also don't think that there are 2 states of either 'corrupt' or not corrupt. There are various shades of grey where something can be on opinion.
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oh I missed it? I didn’t realise I was on trial for my skills at diagnosing and being caught out by your photos and quote.
most of the time, it is actually a miscommunication, or an owner misunderstanding something or just assuming they know better and that their pet didn’t need xyz, or they simply changed their minds, that results in complaints and vet bashing. I take it personally because 3 people in my year who I graduated in 2020 with have committed suicide because of complaints where they hadn’t done anything wrong but the owner wasn’t happy and they were proven not to have done anything wrong, one of them was because they were working 12 hour days and missing lunch breaks because of the sheer volume of work and shortage of vets. If I can try to unpick these miscommunications and misunderstanding and general just not knowing how things work or the rules we are confined by, and reduce the chance of perpetuating the discussions of vets being bad etc by explaining things, then I may just save another of my colleagues leaving the profession or worse
 
paddy555 said:
when they found themselves in a life and death situation they didn't bother to inform me. They carried on regardless. If I had been told I would have insisted PTS immediately. They already had instructions that was what I had asked for. Those instructions also included the point that I didn't need to be rung and asked again, just do it and then let me know.


In fact they have still not told me what happened that night nor in fact that there was any problem at all. After around 18 months I doubt they are likely to,

I was able to obtain details from the insurer and follow the trail back from the drugs used and various other information as to what went wrong. It was very clear from that as to why I wasn't notified.


They didn't need to tell me. They were dealing directly with the insurance company and merely sent their invoice to them for payment.

This was the first animal I have ever insured and I will not be insuring again. I had no control over his treatment.

In fact the whole thing came across as give us the lead, got the insurance details, we'll let you know when he can be collected.


I appreciate this is off topic so sorry OP I won't mention it again,
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Paddy- I think the problem here is not the insurance or cost- but a failure of communication. We only have one side but what you describe is a horrific lack of communication and failure to listen to the owner. Insurance does not mean insurers control treatment. Insurance means what you are billed for is paid by insurance. Owners still have complete say over treatment - the fact you didn't isn't anything to do with insurance and I would have sat down with the practice to discuss it in detail until I was satisfied.
 
Redders said:
oh I missed it? I didn’t realise I was on trial for my skills at diagnosing and being caught out by your photos and quote.
most of the time, it is actually a miscommunication, or an owner misunderstanding something or just assuming they know better and that their pet didn’t need xyz, or they simply changed their minds, that results in complaints and vet bashing. I take it personally because 3 people in my year who I graduated in 2020 with have committed suicide because of complaints where they hadn’t done anything wrong but the owner wasn’t happy and they were proven not to have done anything wrong, one of them was because they were working 12 hour days and missing lunch breaks because of the sheer volume of work and shortage of vets. If I can try to unpick these miscommunications and misunderstanding and general just not knowing how things work or the rules we are confined by, and reduce the chance of perpetuating the discussions of vets being bad etc by explaining things, then I may just save another of my colleagues leaving the profession or worse
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Your skills at diagnosing where never on trial. I illustrated my point with the photos and quote with figures to demonstrate how upsetting it is, when a second vet then says there is no issue and no need for treatment.

I removed the details of who the vets are before posting, and have not made a complaint to any vet. In fact, it was you who suggested that if I have a problem then I bring it up with them. I haven't, despite another vet from the same practice disagreeing with them, as I believe it is a young vet who is being pressured by the management. Yes, they are working the sort of hours you mention - they told me so and looked exhausted. How this is acceptable I do not know, but it is not of my doing and I suspect, in my own vet's case, it is through the chain that bought the original practice seeking to maximise profits.

I asked for a second look at the teeth, despite the second vet saying that the dog was fit and healthy, so we could check on the issue to ensure the dog was not suffering. The second vet was embarrassed and still said there was no issue. Who am I to believe? The dog eats kibble and chews with no issues, has his teeth handled with no issues, tosses his toys around with gay abandon, plays tug with a cushion with the other dog?, carries weight and is bright. One vet says big treatment, the other no treatment. If he needs treatment in the future then he shall have it, but I won't be doing it at the moment. Besides, it would now be tricky (if not impossible) to have any treatment now, as the new, current, young vet says it is not required!!!

I changed my horse vets when my old equine practice was bought up by a chain. Sadly, the dog vets is the only one close by and vets in general don't seem prepared to travel to dogs.

I do think that something has to change with young vets and junior vets in general. I don't think it is the fault of the clients by enlarge though. I think the practices need to take employment law seriously and back up the vets when issues occur and stick to reasonable hours of work. And yes, I do think some vets maximise profits as they are pressured by big organisations.

I think I am a good client. I give thanks and send cards when an issue has been resolved, even bought Rigsby's vet posh gloves for saving him. I am clear with my wishes and boundaries, showing good communication. Horses are in and ready, tea and toast provided, and bills paid the same day they are issued.

My two dogs and Rigs are not insured as they are 'oldies' and we wouldn't do massive treatments due to concerns about future quality of life. They all have 'conditions' and are living their lives out, with maintenance treatments. I have budgeted 2.5k for general issues (each). More than that, probably not. The young horse is insured as I would do more invasive treatments in the hope of a long and happy life. He has 6k to go at with insurance (10k for colic), and I would fund more.
 
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I don't think 2 vets having different views is that unusual, particularly on teeth (and it seems somewhat connected GAing older dogs to do their teeth) you only have to hang around online vet spaces to see that. I guess it can be pretty subjective and my experience of human and horse dentists has been much the same, it doesn't mean one is wrong and one is right.

We are ridiculously lucky to have the access to vets we do in this country.
 
Red-1 said:
Your skills at diagnosing where never on trial. I illustrated my point with the photos and quote with figures to demonstrate how upsetting it is, when a second vet then says there is no issue and no need for treatment.

I removed the details of who the vets are before posting, and have not made a complaint to any vet. In fact, it was you who suggested that if I have a problem then I bring it up with them. I haven't, despite another vet from the same practice disagreeing with them, as I believe it is a young vet who is being pressured by the management. Yes, they are working the sort of hours you mention - they told me so and looked exhausted. How this is acceptable I do not know, but it is not of my doing and I suspect, in my own vet's case, it is through the chain that bought the original practice seeking to maximise profits.

I asked for a second look at the teeth, despite the second vet saying that the dog was fit and healthy, so we could check on the issue to ensure the dog was not suffering. The second vet was embarrassed and still said there was no issue. Who am I to believe? The dog eats kibble and chews with no issues, has his teeth handled with no issues, tosses his toys around with gay abandon, plays tug with a cushion with the other dog?, carries weight and is bright. One vet says big treatment, the other no treatment. If he needs treatment in the future then he shall have it, but I won't be doing it at the moment. Besides, it would now be tricky (if not impossible) to have any treatment now, as the new, current, young vet says it is not required!!!

I changed my horse vets when my old equine practice was bought up by a chain. Sadly, the dog vets is the only one close by and vets in general don't seem prepared to travel to dogs.

I do think that something has to change with young vets and junior vets in general. I don't think it is the fault of the clients by enlarge though. I think the practices need to take employment law seriously and back up the vets when issues occur and stick to reasonable hours of work. And yes, I do think some vets maximise profits as they are pressured by big organisations.

I think I am a good client. I give thanks and send cards when an issue has been resolved, even bought Rigsby's vet posh gloves for saving him. I am clear with my wishes and boundaries, showing good communication. Horses are in and ready, tea and toast provided, and bills paid the same day they are issued.

My two dogs and Rigs are not insured as they are 'oldies' and we wouldn't do massive treatments due to concerns about future quality of life. They all have 'conditions' and are living their lives out, with maintenance treatments. I have budgeted 2.5k for general issues (each). More than that, probably not. The young horse is insured as I would do more invasive treatments in the hope of a long and happy life. He has 6k to go at with insurance (10k for colic), and I would fund more.
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I had a very similar situation at my vets, where two different vets said opposite things (well actually two said one thing and one disagreed). I just won’t see that vet anymore and always ask who the appointment is with. It wasn’t an isolated incident with them either, they’ve said my dog needed other treatment which has never been said before or since. It’s not something I feel I need to complain about, I just feel as if I can’t trust that vet. Mines a big practice, so it hasn’t happened yet where there’s no choice in who to see.
 
I think like human health part of your health care is educating your self, so you can make an informed decision, and learning to ask the right questions. I know I may seem quite calculating but I have a mental budget on what I will spend on any animal and why, which goes on in the background of my thinking, so when I go to the vets, it's what is their need, what is the likely outcome, what's the cost of treatment, and my decision is based on the best interests of the animal and cost, and I am very direct with the vet about what I am prepared to spend and why.
My Rottix, who is eleven had a soft swelling which turned to a hard swelling, that was growing and starting to affect her movement. She is much loved by all the family but before I took her to the vet I had already decided I did not want major surgery, or any radical treatment, The instruction was to reduce the lump so she had a better quality of life, but no biopsy, no bloods, and if she became unwell under the anaesthetic, she was to be PTS. I wrote it in red on the consent form, and signed it.
I got a phone call from the vet who was doing the operation, with you do know that questions. In the end I got a bit fed up, and asked was she trying to reassure herself or me? Whether its because they are so used to people having a change of heart, unrealistic expectations, or complaints, so they are practising defensively, but I think owners have to be clear what they want and why, and if it's not an emergency, plenty of vet practices now have very informative websites so you get an idea what the standard treatment options are, and the costs.
 
ester said:
I don't think 2 vets having different views is that unusual
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Ask me sometime about the ongoing saga of ‘does my dog have a heart murmur or not’, which you’d think would be pretty objective but the one sod who claimed they could hear one has lead to several other poor sods having to have a listen. He doesn’t as it happens but I’m not mad, it would have been more remiss of the one vet not to mention it, however doubtful it was. I joke that I will be invoicing that one for the echo if I ever want to breed. ?

I think this takes us full circle to one vet’s minor hernia and another vet’s immediate action needed hernia.
 
I always ask which vets are available and ask to see the one of my choice except in a dire emergency.
Daycare Dog went to the vet with symptoms of a false pregnancy after her 1st season, one a Friday during lockdown. The only available appointment was at a branch we don't usually use. The diagnosis was 'she's in season'.
Symptoms got worse over the weekend. On the Monday I went with friend and DD to the branch that we use, asked to see the senior vet (by name), receptionist told me she was with a client (obviously) but I said we would wait. Diagnosis of and treatment for false pregnancy, cost if previous consultation knocked of that day's bill. Senior vet apologised and said that she would speak to the inexperienced vet who had seen DD before the weekend.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
I always ask which vets are available and ask to see the one of my choice except in a dire emergency.
Daycare Dog went to the vet with symptoms of a false pregnancy after her 1st season, one a Friday during lockdown. The only available appointment was at a branch we don't usually use. The diagnosis was 'she's in season'.
Symptoms got worse over the weekend. On the Monday I went with friend and DD to the branch that we use, asked to see the senior vet (by name), receptionist told me she was with a client (obviously) but I said we would wait. Diagnosis of and treatment for false pregnancy, cost if previous consultation knocked of that day's bill. Senior vet apologised and said that she would speak to the inexperienced vet who had seen DD before the weekend.
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Vets are people too. And do make mistakes.
 
Amymay said:
Vets are people too. And do make mistakes.
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Indeed and I have met several who have done so, over the years. Condescending treatment of a 1st time owner whose dog had been in season mere weeks before and had obvious symptoms of a false pregnancy, including milky discharge from the teats, is not acceptable, as senior vet understood.
 
Red-1 said:
I changed my horse vets when my old equine practice was bought up by a chain. Sadly, the dog vets is the only one close by and vets in general don't seem prepared to travel to dogs.

Most vets don't have the staff to cover visits *(we used to have 2 visit days a week and do emergency visits too, oh halcyon days). It's nothing to do with being prepared to. It's taking a much needed vet (and possibly nurse as well) out of practice for large chunks of time. In-practice appointments are often tricky enough to cover given current staffing levels.

I do think that something has to change with young vets and junior vets in general. I don't think it is the fault of the clients by enlarge though. I think the practices need to take employment law seriously and back up the vets when issues occur and stick to reasonable hours of work. And yes, I do think some vets maximise profits as they are pressured by big organisations.

Clients don't really have any idea what vets are up against. Independents struggle against the big chains, because they don't have the buying power for the big/new equipment, and the back up. They tend to be bought out by said chains, but it's not something most vets and vet staff want - but it's often that or close altogether. And practices take employment law very seriously. Vets are often subject to complaints - most often about prices, but also "missing" something (often when the client has refused diagnostics). They ARE backed up by management when issues occur IME. Everyone in the industry is aware that vets are on their knees due to the staffing crisis, now exacerbated by lockdown pets, cost of living, Brexit difficulties etc. Suicide is the highest of any profession. Sometimes they are at fault - because they are not superhuman.

With regards to profit - yes, all vets try to maximise profits, just like any other business. Overheads are astronomical. The vast majority of vets and vet nurses earn MUCH less than human practitioner equivalents. Long hours without breaks are common because poorly pets keep coming - we are essentially an understaffed A&E, as well as an animal GP practice and a surgical unit and a diagnostics centre and everything else we do. None of us are getting rich. Receptionists like me are paid minimum wage or just above, but we all do our best FOR THE ANIMALS not because we want to screw money out of people.

I think I am a good client. I give thanks and send cards when an issue has been resolved, even bought Rigsby's vet posh gloves for saving him. I am clear with my wishes and boundaries, showing good communication. Horses are in and ready, tea and toast provided, and bills paid the same day they are issued.

Good. And that is what a good working relationship looks like :-)
.
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I am so lucky with our vet practice. The 2 senior vets are brilliant. They are an independent practice and have grown over the last 12 years or so. They have looked after 5 family dogs wonderfully and I cannot fault them. I always get a discussion about possible diagnosis, possible options for treatment or non treatment, the option for any surgery (mouth tumour and a knee surgery in 2 of our dogs) to be done at our vets or to go to a referral centre of my choice.

A 4 night emergency stay over August BH weekend including IV antibiotics, ultrasound scan, blood tests, xray, emergency laparotomy and fluids IV with antiemetics for 4 days plus follow up appts with poo tests and more bloods came in at just over 2.5K. I could not have asked for more. 3 or 4 calls a day to update me and senior vet gave up a wedding to stay and look after my dog and one other over the weekend as no one wanted them to go to the OOH.

I cannot recommend them highly enough and yes I did take biscuits and chocs for everyone and a couple of really good bottles of wine for my vet. My insurance paid out no questions but we would have paid ourselves happily. I do not believe she was "over treated" and we are lucky to still have a healthy 3yo dog. The practice is in an expensive village in Surrey so could easily charge a lot more than it does. Redders you and LC sound very like them in your approach.
 
My (small animal) vet is wonderful and chose his profession for all the right reasons. Unfortunately, he was unable to compete with bigger practices and his practice ended up getting bought out. His prices have gone right up, but if you email him on his private address, he writes a free script, so clearly disagrees with his own practice management. A sad ending waiting to happen, I am sure. I trust him and pay the new consultation prices because he's worth it to me. But, he himself is embarrassed by it and I fear it will drive him away in the end and the practice will have lost an excellent animal and human-friendly intuitive vet.

Our equine practice has already lost their best vet after joining a big veterinary consortium (their prices also went up).

All that aside, living in a country with access to 24/7 vet accessible care is a wonderful thing indeed. I think it's just hard to see the big picture sometimes when times are hard and money is tight and nobody liked to feel they are being taken advantage of. My friend in Arizona drove a colicking horse 4 hours to get to the only vet he could find who would see the horse right away. The horse was PTS on arrival. The last colic on my yard was at 11pm and vet arrived within 30 minutes and horse arrived at clinic 45 minutes later already stabilised on pain relief, etc ...
 
MissTyc said:
My (small animal) vet is wonderful and chose his profession for all the right reasons. Unfortunately, he was unable to compete with bigger practices and his practice ended up getting bought out. His prices have gone right up, but if you email him on his private address, he writes a free script, so clearly disagrees with his own practice management. A sad ending waiting to happen, I am sure. I trust him and pay the new consultation prices because he's worth it to me. But, he himself is embarrassed by it and I fear it will drive him away in the end and the practice will have lost an excellent animal and human-friendly intuitive vet.

Our equine practice has already lost their best vet after joining a big veterinary consortium (their prices also went up).

All that aside, living in a country with access to 24/7 vet accessible care is a wonderful thing indeed. I think it's just hard to see the big picture sometimes when times are hard and money is tight and nobody liked to feel they are being taken advantage of. My friend in Arizona drove a colicking horse 4 hours to get to the only vet he could find who would see the horse right away. The horse was PTS on arrival. The last colic on my yard was at 11pm and vet arrived within 30 minutes and horse arrived at clinic 45 minutes later already stabilised on pain relief, etc ...
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Was he the one who sold his practice?
He can probably write free prescriptions as he has sold his practice for a very large sum indeed so don't feel too grateful to him. Clearly writing free prescriptions and having cheaper prices didnt generate enough income for him to remain independent so didn't work as a sustainable business model......
 
Quick update - second vet saw the puppy last week, hernia very large - he could get more than three fingers inside - surgery booked for next week. Breed club now involved to mediate an agreement. Thank you to some of you for useful/helpful info and/or perspective - I’ve put a couple of other posters on ignore
 
Muddy unicorn said:
Quick update - second vet saw the puppy last week, hernia very large - he could get more than three fingers inside - surgery booked for next week. Breed club now involved to mediate an agreement. Thank you to some of you for useful/helpful info and/or perspective - I’ve put a couple of other posters on ignore
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I hope the surgery goes well.
 
Muddy unicorn said:
Quick update - second vet saw the puppy last week, hernia very large - he could get more than three fingers inside - surgery booked for next week. Breed club now involved to mediate an agreement. Thank you to some of you for useful/helpful info and/or perspective - I’ve put a couple of other posters on ignore
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Thanks for the update, fingers crossed for a successful, easy op with a speedy recovery.
 
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