New research - horses feel MORE pain than humans

Wagtail

Wagtail

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The way that they play fight in the field shows how little they are bothered though. I wouldn't like to be on the receiving end but the boys like nothing better than squabbling all day.
 
A huge percentage of human perceived pain is psychological so it's a bit of a worthless study - also it's the way that nerve signal is interpreted by the brain...
 
blitznbobs said:
A huge percentage of human perceived pain is psychological so it's a bit of a worthless study - also it's the way that nerve signal is interpreted by the brain...
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But isn't it the same with horses? How many times to people say that it is 'expected pain' when describing a horse's behaviour? Some horses that have been thrashed, will freak when someone picks up a whip. Some horses are very stoic, others will play up if they have even the slightest twinge of pain.
 
It is possible to gauge how much pain we or an animal is prepared to put up with by measuring how much / for how long a noxious stimulus is tolerate before trying to escape. This will include a psychological element. For example, we can measure how long a person can keep their hand immersed in a tank of cold water, and may observe that the average duration depends on whether the person stays quiet or is allowed to swear (as was demonstrated in a TV documentary a couple of years ago with Brian Blessed, who is very good at swearing). It's called dolorimetry. Alternatively, the aversive perception of something painful can be weighed against a competing reward by asking how much pain will an animal tolerate in order to gain a reward. So while it may not be easy, straightforward or ethical, there are ways to get some kind of answer to the question of how much pain horses feel in their own pain spectrum.

Comparison with humans is harder because it is apples vs pears to some extent - the mental consequences of feeling pain are going to be different.
 
This kind of study varies from day to day. And is altered so much by outside influences ... Showing a religious person a religious image reduces their perception of pain. After surgery an animal ( non human) returns to normal behaviour far before an adult human -- as does a juvenile human (children's reaction to pain is far more like that of a nonhuman animal)

But what is very clear is perceived pain is far less to do with the nerve signal than the brains interpretation of that nerve signal... FMRI in humans is giving us more of a clue to exactly how the pain systems and the inhibitors of pain signals interact but it's research that is in its infancy...

I'm currently awaiting ethics approval to look at nerve blocks and perceived pain once a nerve is blocked ... To see if we can see which parts of the brain are purely 'psychological and or norcebo 'routes of pain
 
But by studying an animal's behaviour, are we are not looking at the end result following brain interpretation? I suppose there will always be an assumption which we can choose to make or reject - that certain behaviours are good indicators of mental state, e.g. a horse that is actively trying to flee something is continuing to experience the emotion of fear, rather than merely appearing to and actually feeling quite relaxed and calm.
 
It's difficult to say isn't it we can't talk to a horse like we can talk to a person. A horse runs like that through fear not pain and it's an evolutionary response for a horse to run and keep running even from a possibility of a predator ( we have all sat on horses that have had a fear response due to a plastic bag or a daffodil. This is nothing to do with pain... Or perception of pain.
 
Okay, what about horses that become needle phobic? Having injections is not very painful at all and the horse does not expect or see the cause of the pain, yet it is enough for some horses to object so strongly that they will slam you against walls or kick out. These horses must be feeling that pain far more severely than most humans do, and some other horses for that matter.
 
blitznbobs said:
It's difficult to say isn't it we can't talk to a horse like we can talk to a person. A horse runs like that through fear not pain and it's an evolutionary response for a horse to run and keep running even from a possibility of a predator ( we have all sat on horses that have had a fear response due to a plastic bag or a daffodil. This is nothing to do with pain... Or perception of pain.
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I was making the more general point about interpreting behaviour, but I do take your point that pain and fear, while clearly linked, aren't the same thing at all.
 
Wagtail said:
But isn't it the same with horses? How many times to people say that it is 'expected pain' when describing a horse's behaviour? Some horses that have been thrashed, will freak when someone picks up a whip. Some horses are very stoic, others will play up if they have even the slightest twinge of pain.
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I think that this is usually more anticipation of confusion. Horses get upset by real or prospective pain that they do not know how to get to stop. Most horses if the incentive is there, will learn how to test an electric fence with their nose (a very sensitive part of the body). They will happily risk possible pain because they know how to make it stop.

When some idiot has thrashed a horse they haven't generally stopped because of any action of the horse, they just expend all their*anger then pit the whip down. That sort of situation is terrifying for a horse, but not because of their pain threshold.
 
If whips are for "urging" a horse, as Peter McGauran suggests in the documentary, how does that work? What is actually motivating the horse to run faster?
 
I think that we as humans tend to be very arrogant about our superiority. But more and more evidence is coming to light about just how intelligent and emotional some animals can be. The great apes for example have been shown to empathise with others and perceive fairness etc. So I think it is very presumptuous to start with the assumption that humans feel pain to a greater degree than animals. This small study has shown that potentially horses feel more pain than humans do. It is a simple assumption based on a physical finding. There is no evidence whatsoever that humans feel pain more acutely than animals. It is all speculation as far as I can see, because we naturally empathise more with our fellow humans.
 
Hmmm, I'm not convinced, ever seen the bliss on the faces of horses involved in very rough mutual grooming? Ever had a horse kind enough to do the same to you? Well I have and I can guarantee the look on my face was not one of bliss!!!
 
DabDab said:
When some idiot has thrashed a horse they haven't generally stopped because of any action of the horse...
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Substitute "thrashed" for a less emotive term, and isn't this rather like the end of a race when horses are being "urged" with a series of whip strikes? Eventually the whipping stops, but that would be the case in the thrashing scenario too. The horse would have to have learned through experience that running harder will make it stop (eventually).
 
you are absolutely right to say there is no research comparing pain in humans and animals. This is because it's impossible to do in today's science. FMRI may change this but this science is in its infancy ... 50 years ago doctors believed that babies didn't feel pain. Present studies of pain in humans use pain scores (give the pain a score out of 10) which is a bit difficult in animals. Even vets seem to think animals don't feel pain. A humans analgesia need post laparotomy ( think colic surgery) is truly massive we give them buckets of morphine or if possible epidural analgesia .. Horses get very little opiate and a bit of anti inflammatory . It's why I'd never put an animal of mine thru it...

My point was that the study showing thickness of distance between a neurone and the world is not an indication of pain perceived.
 
minesadouble said:
Hmmm, I'm not convinced, ever seen the bliss on the faces of horses involved in very rough mutual grooming? Ever had a horse kind enough to do the same to you? Well I have and I can guarantee the look on my face was not one of bliss!!!
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Actually, yes - and I am quite able to withstand that pain, which I perceive as easily bearable under the circumstances. Which nicely illustrates blitznbobs' point about nerve signals being interpreted differently. The same can happen in hypnotic suggestion (which apparently I am susceptible to) - stimuli which ought to be painful are not perceived that way.
 
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minesadouble said:
Hmmm, I'm not convinced, ever seen the bliss on the faces of horses involved in very rough mutual grooming? Ever had a horse kind enough to do the same to you? Well I have and I can guarantee the look on my face was not one of bliss!!!
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Yes but where they groom one another is where the skin is thicker and tougher. You don't see them grooming down the rib cage which is where we whip them. If a horse made the mistake of doing that to another horse they'd get a squeal and possibly a kick!
 
blitznbobs said:
you are absolutely right to say there is no research comparing pain in humans and animals. This is because it's impossible to do in today's science. FMRI may change this but this science is in its infancy ... 50 years ago doctors believed that babies didn't feel pain. Present studies of pain in humans use pain scores (give the pain a score out of 10) which is a bit difficult in animals.
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Do you think that behavioural scores are completely useless here?

Even vets seem to think animals don't feel pain.
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You meant some vets, right??

My point was that the study showing thickness of distance between a neurone and the world is not an indication of pain perceived.
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Wholeheartedly concur.
 
blitznbobs said:
you are absolutely right to say there is no research comparing pain in humans and animals. This is because it's impossible to do in today's science. FMRI may change this but this science is in its infancy ... 50 years ago doctors believed that babies didn't feel pain. Present studies of pain in humans use pain scores (give the pain a score out of 10) which is a bit difficult in animals. Even vets seem to think animals don't feel pain. A humans analgesia need post laparotomy ( think colic surgery) is truly massive we give them buckets of morphine or if possible epidural analgesia .. Horses get very little opiate and a bit of anti inflammatory . It's why I'd never put an animal of mine thru it...

My point was that the study showing thickness of distance between a neurone and the world is not an indication of pain perceived.
Click to expand...

Pain scoring in humans is very subjective though. One person's ten is another's five.
 
Wagtail said:
Okay, what about horses that become needle phobic? Having injections is not very painful at all and the horse does not expect or see the cause of the pain, yet it is enough for some horses to object so strongly that they will slam you against walls or kick out. These horses must be feeling that pain far more severely than most humans do, and some other horses for that matter.
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Is it the pain or the sensation though? I have a needle-shy horse, who has slowly improved over the years (16 years now!), but is still worked up into a frenzy by bot flies.

Why? Bots don't bite or sting, but they do look like wasps/hornets/bees. A needle isn't really that painful, but it stings. It could be, that in the past my horse has been stung and that's what worries him.

Electric fences don't really hurt that much, certainly nowhere near as much as a horse bite, but the sensation is horrible.
 
fburton said:
Do you think that behavioural scores are completely useless here?

I'm not an animal researcher so it's not my field but it is my understanding that this is more to do with fear than pain. But if anyone knows more about this is be glad to be corrected...

You meant some vets, right??

From what I've seen vets give minimal analgesia compared to anaesthetists weight for weight... I know that when I used to gas for a living my patients got a complete block when possible and got patient controlled morphine when not - the animals I've observed post op don't get anything near the amount of pain killer humans would get. I am of the belief ( no evidence at all except from the human perspective) that they are considerably under treated for pain.
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Wagtail said:
Pain scoring in humans is very subjective though. One person's ten is another's five.
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That's why you look at a persons trend rather than their score.

Pain IS a perception ... Therefore by definition it is subjective. Equally scores change with mood, lightings, what's on the tv within one person with the same stimulus...
 
Beausmate said:
Is it the pain or the sensation though? I have a needle-shy horse, who has slowly improved over the years (16 years now!), but is still worked up into a frenzy by bot flies.

Why? Bots don't bite or sting, but they do look like wasps/hornets/bees. A needle isn't really that painful, but it stings. It could be, that in the past my horse has been stung and that's what worries him.

Electric fences don't really hurt that much, certainly nowhere near as much as a horse bite, but the sensation is horrible.
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I think that all unpleasant stimulus is pain. A burn feels different from a cut which feels different from a bang with a hammer...
 
Wagtail said:
I think that all unpleasant stimulus is pain. A burn feels different from a cut which feels different from a bang with a hammer...
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What about a nasty smell or noise? I find picking up polystyrene excessively unpleasant( makes me want to throw up ) but it isn't a pain
 
Beausmate said:
Electric fences don't really hurt that much, certainly nowhere near as much as a horse bite, but the sensation is horrible.
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Quite different sensations, I agree. I would say the electric fence hurts a LOT but only for an instant - a few seconds later there is hardly any residual pain to be felt. (I think there's potentially quite a big difference between a mains-powered fence and one connected to a tiddly little battery box.) A horse bite could hurt for hours or days after it happens.
 
Something doesn't have to hurt more to feel worse. I know people who can't bear to have their feet touched, not because it hurts in any way, but because they find the sensation unpleasant.

I wonder what is going in in the brain - would it be pain or something else?
 
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