New Shoes- Natural Balance -Pics Your opinions please!

[Jennyharvey]

He may be fine coming out of shoes. If its stoney, he may need boots. But if the ground isnt too stoney between his field and stable, he shouldnt needs boots to get there. Whats the ground like?
He may only need boots to be ridden, but i think that if you are paying for livery, then its not much to ask for them to do boots for him. Im sure they put his rug on and off?

If you are interested, contact an equine podiatrist in your area and im sure they could come out to you for a consultation. Explain that your not sure if barefoot will work but would just like a chance to get someones opinion.

Some horses need more conditioning than others, but some horses, once they get going, are fine. Only need boots for stoney tracks usually.

Where about are you?

I could maybe recommend an ep in your area if you like? Im not in the uk mainland, or else i would be happy to come and see your horse if u wanted.
But i think it may be worth your while talking to an ep. Even if you decide not to remove the shoes, you will be more enlightened.

 

[skewbald86]

How much does a consultation cost- i'm on a bit of a budget, if it exceeds shoeing costs I wouldnt be interested.
I'm based in warwks

 

[skewbald86]

I had a horse that benefited immensely from NB shoeing. That is not good NB shoeing in my opinion - sorry.

Hi Munchkin,
What is wrong with the shoeing? just so I can ask the farrier when he comes out?
Thanks

 

[LucyPriory]

The specific shoeing job pictured...@#$%^ horrible!

I second that, b. awful trim job, the heels aren't even balanced and the toe has been very heavily rasped.

 

[Shysmum]

oooo barefoot,barefoot !!!

That shoeing just doesn't look right, sorry. I imagine he will be sore, hence the shortened strides. sm x

 

[cptrayes]

You don't show pictures of the underside of your horse's feet, but if by "natural balance" he means that he has set the breakover well back from the front of the toe, and your horse has flat feet and thin soles, then the point of his/her pedal bone is probably going to be pressing directly onto a metal shoe through his/her sole and if so, s/he would definitely change her gait.

 

[LucyPriory]

Looks like from the comments so far I'm going to be looking for a third farrier, he is a remidial farrier and has been recomended by vets.
When he was vetted the vet said he should be shod so his heels are long, as hes flat footed, with long toes, low heels. And if they weren't his heels would start to split.
He didn't put them on him as a normal way of shoeing. We discussed it and he thought it would be a good idea as his heels are so bad, and he has been tripping over, Which he didnt on out hack today (this is a first, he we normally have at least 3 or 4 trips in a hack.

Maybe you should consider changing your vet too? That is terrible advice. A flat footed long toed horse with underrun heels needs a decent trim and probably a dietary overhaul. Horses are not born with flat feet etc. We make them through inappropriate management.

Sort the cause and find yourself a decent trimmer - and a vet that understands something about feet.

 

[skewbald86]

I'm totally confused at what to do now, I've had 3 farriers see him now. all been told not good.
with ref to the unlevel heel hights, he told me before he put the on he would shoe the backs like this to correct his conformation, so I went along with what he said.
There is litterally only one other farrier in the area that has a good rep that i havent tried.
If hes till not striding right by next week, do i get another farrier out? or the one who has done the current job?

 

[LucyPriory]

Did either the vet or the farrier discuss the hefty event lines with you? They should have. Until you can grow a hoof without such extreme event lines you will always be fighting symptoms.

I know lots of horses have them, peeps just don't notice. Which is why the transition from shod to bare can sometimes mean a dietary change. The dietary issue was always there, but the symptoms were masked by the effects of the shoes.

 

[skewbald86]

Maybe you should consider changing your vet too? That is terrible advice. A flat footed long toed horse with underrun heels needs a decent trim and probably a dietary overhaul. Horses are not born with flat feet etc. We make them through inappropriate management.

Sort the cause and find yourself a decent trimmer - and a vet that understands something about feet.

if you see my previous post, it has a video of him of when i collected him about 3 months ago. He was soo skinny and hadnt been re shod for months. Just left in a field to starve really, when I tried him he had just been fully clipped (in april!) and in a no fill rug and it was freezing, so he does come to me with nutritinal issues and feet issues.
Vets wise, they are probably the most popular vets in the west mids, so I trusted their advice

 

[skewbald86]

Did either the vet or the farrier discuss the hefty event lines with you? They should have. Until you can grow a hoof without such extreme event lines you will always be fighting symptoms.

I know lots of horses have them, peeps just don't notice. Which is why the transition from shod to bare can sometimes mean a dietary change. The dietary issue was always there, but the symptoms were masked by the effects of the shoes.

by event lines do you mean the ring around his feet? the vet said these are from the fact he had been starved for the last 6 months and not getting the nutrients he needs.
Just so you know I have only had him for about 3months, these are not my doing, I'm trying to get the best for my boy and correct what state hes been left in.

 

[Munchkin]

The whole idea of "natural balance" is that the breakover point allows foot growth without altering the heel/pastern axis. You can see by looking at the angle of your horse's foot that that wouldn't happen.

Also, the shoe is generally further back on the foot, balancing the heel and with more toe over the front of the shoe.

It's good for horses who drop dramatically onto their heels as their feet grow (as a fair few WBs do) as it takes the stress off the navicular region.

To be honest your lad looks like he'd benefit more from a correct trim and an ordinary (if any) set of shoes

 

[skewbald86]

The whole idea of "natural balance" is that the breakover point allows foot growth without altering the heel/pastern axis. You can see by looking at the angle of your horse's foot that that wouldn't happen.

Also, the shoe is generally further back on the foot, balancing the heel and with more toe over the front of the shoe.

It's good for horses who drop dramatically onto their heels as their feet grow (as a fair few WBs do) as it takes the stress off the navicular region.

To be honest your lad looks like he'd benefit more from a correct trim and an ordinary (if any) set of shoes

Can you explain the angle bit? I'm a bit slow and dont understand what it means and why it wouldnt happen on my lad?

I'm confussed, the vet told me he was on his heels and in my post last week people told me they were low. so surely that means he would benefit from these, also to help with his tripping?

 

[irishdraft]

Skewbald86 Im not surprised you are confused when so many people are telling you so many things. I agree with the general concenus that the pics of the NB shoeing look pretty horrendous. I had a horse who had NB shoes for a while, he didnt need them but it was all the rage with the particular farrier who came to that yard, he was a decent farrier and they looked completly different from yours. The overhang on the foot pictured does not look right whatever the reason, if the horse needs that then it should have a proper feather edge i think its called. Look up the worshipful company of farriers and try to get a master farrier, then get a decent equine vet to advise you and stick to their advice, the more advice you listen to the more confused you will get. Good luck with your horse you are trying to to the best thing by him.

 

[ester]

skewbald might I suggest, given the responses and your confusion that you maybe email the pics to your vet and see what they think, and maybe get them out in coordination with a farrier as to the best way forward so that you are happy at what is being done.

I have only had one encounter with NB shoes on a loan arab we had done by a farrier I would rate (he later shod ours until he emigrated) but it wasn't good. It was fine when he was in light work but when we took him on his work was upped and he completely knocked his toes off so they were squared off to where the shoe sat. He went back into front toe clip shoes and was fine.

just to add am sure your vets will be very happy to help you out at this stage when you havent had her very long rather than having to treat any problems that might arise if its not done right.

 

[Munchkin]

If you type 'heel-pastern axis' into Google images there are some good diagrams - easier than me trying to explain!

 

[skewbald86]

skewbald might I suggest, given the responses and your confusion that you maybe email the pics to your vet and see what they think, and maybe get them out in coordination with a farrier as to the best way forward so that you are happy at what is being done.

I have only had one encounter with NB shoes on a loan arab we had done by a farrier I would rate (he later shod ours until he emigrated) but it wasn't good. It was fine when he was in light work but when we took him on his work was upped and he completely knocked his toes off so they were squared off to where the shoe sat. He went back into front toe clip shoes and was fine.

just to add am sure your vets will be very happy to help you out at this stage when you havent had her very long rather than having to treat any problems that might arise if its not done right.

Thats a great idea, did not think of that!
After this farrier being slated on here though don't know if i'd want him again. I just want whats best for my lad.
I've been looking at other farriers that cover my area. Joe Bryan has been mentioned on another post here as a great farrier and is a member of the england horseshoeing team so can't be bad. will try him.
Thanks for everyones advice really appreciate it

 

[LucyPriory]

by event lines do you mean the ring around his feet? the vet said these are from the fact he had been starved for the last 6 months and not getting the nutrients he needs.
Just so you know I have only had him for about 3months, these are not my doing, I'm trying to get the best for my boy and correct what state hes been left in.

Def change your vet Event lines are the horizontal rings around the hoof. Often rasped out by the over zealous.

Event lines - so called because they mark an 'event'. Sometimes good ie a positive change in diet or exercise regieme. More usually too much sugar/simple starch, sometimes a wormer or vaccination can cause them.

A horse can be 'starved' but still get too much sugar. Whether you take this to mean deprived of a balanced diet or simply not enough calories.

Horses on the short grass typically seen in 'starvation' paddocks are often getting grass which is very high in sugar. Because stressed grass is high in sugar see www.safergrass.org for the details and research.

It is impossible to be accurate about hooves from photos. However the hoof in the second photo is showing a big pink event line just above half way down and another fainter one further down. These are not good and I would suspect a lami attack or something equally traumatic.

The first picture is bull nosed, the second picture has had the toe rasped out, and the fourth picture appears to be showing forward flare (along with underslung heel but that is another matter). All potential indicators of on-going lami or LGL type issues.

Some vets refuse/fail/ to recognise or do not understand early lami or LGL symptoms, being unwilling for whatever reason to diagnose until such time as the horse has become extremely compromised.

Putting the issue of the less than ideal shoeing to one side. Please consider reviewing your horse's diet with a view to reducing sugar/simple starch intake and ensuring that a good mineral balance is acheived.

I appreciate you are working with what you inherited. Good for you for taking on the challenge. Best place to start is sorting the diet.

 

[teddyt]

If you change a horses foot balance then it takes time for them to get used to it. there may be shortened strides and/or lamenes in the meantime. You actually have to work them with the new feet, not rest them- contrary to popular opinion. Foot balance affects the horse all the way up the limb and the back. To see what i mean try wearing a new pair of shoes with a higher heel than youre used to. Wear them 24/7d i bet you will walk differently until you get used to them!

With regards to changing farrier- talk to him! He cant work miracles in one shoeing. Ask him about your horse and his plans to educate yourself. Feet are a work in progress, and a farrier can only do so much and work with what hes got to work with. If youre still not happy a few shoeings down the line then change but i think you need to give the new bloke a chance!

 

[Holidays_are_coming]

Gosh I would be confused with everyone giving advice, my Tb had nb shoes and they had a very wide bar at the front, which was set back as he had such thin soles and they helped his breakover point!

The hoof pastern axis is important, in theory it should be a nice straight line from the pastern to the floor, I always ask my farrier what he is doing and why, while my farrier was injured I went through 3 different farriers as they all did a **** job. My present farrier asks me not to do much with my horse straight after she has been shod especially if he has changed a lot!

I would give him a call and explain what has happened to your horses stride, if you dont get a suitable answer call the vet and send pic, it may be a case of needing more time to settle, or they may not be suitable for him.

/hope u get it sorted, but dont panic!

 

[Holidays_are_coming]

With regards to changing farrier- talk to him! He cant work miracles in one shoeing. Ask him about your horse and his plans to educate yourself. Feet are a work in progress, and a farrier can only do so much and work with what hes got to work with. If youre still not happy a few shoeings down the line then change but i think you need to give the new bloke a chance!

Totally agree

 

[oliversmummy]

Hi There - she went back to normal as soon as she had the normal shoes back on!
Good luck which ever you chose to do, it's so hard sometimes, but if your boy moved well before it seems like a good idea to put him back in normal shoes again.

 

[Kaylum]

I know nothing about NB shoes. but what would seriously concern me is that overhang. Surely its going to be very easy for the horse to pull it off or scrape its other leg? Or is that not the case? Enlighten me

 

[destiny11]

My mare was diagnosed with arthritic changes in her coffin joints. My vet recommended she have NB shoes. They have been great, she has been sound for three years with the NB shoes and Cartrophen injections. My other mare though has normal shoes as she doesn't need NB

 

[skewbald86]

i've spoken to the farrier, he said its not from the NB shoes its the change in his feet shape and should be better within a few days.If its not by monday I will have to call him again.
I sent a link of pics to the HO of NB shoes in USA, He didnt recon they were very good but I have to send him more detailed pics to confirm this.
Sorry to be stupid but whats LGL?
The field he was on litterally had no grass, was a muddy 1 acre paddock, when I went to see him (the owner wasnt there) he had been left in (for the whole day) without any hay, so not sure about the lami bit? But I know nothing about this topic as never had to deal with this.
A few of the traumas showing on the feet I asked the farrier about, he said on was a burst abcess and others might be due to past bad shoeing?

 

[ester]

was just catching up on this thread

LGL is low grade laminitis

 

[Tiffany]

Can anyone explain exactly what NB shoes are ?

I'm no expert and I know it's only the first time this farrier had shod your horse so, if you vet is happy I'd give him time to improve his feet over time.

 

[Storminateacup]

I am in total agreement with what Jennyharvey has to say here, my horse was shod for some 6 months in NB shoes and it made the whole thing worse, his heels became more and more underrun and his toes longer. I have just taken on the services of an EP and already my boy has been so much better and his heels have really started to grow down rather than forward, he still has painfully long toes but overall I am seeing a huge improvement, he is not tripping so much and is far better downhill. I also have to feed a special high protein low sugar diet and feed base. My youngster will never be shod. The pictures of your horses feet look like mine did for years even prior to the NB shoes, there was never any improvement in the underrunn heel, long toe conformation, and I would recommend you seek out a barefoot solution. Can only reiterate Jennys advice.
Also IMHO your farrier has done a pretty poor job alround for all the reasons mentioned throughout this thread, they do look terrible.

 

[skewbald86]

I know nothing about NB shoes. but what would seriously concern me is that overhang. Surely its going to be very easy for the horse to pull it off or scrape its other leg? Or is that not the case? Enlighten me

The overhang is on the ouside so not sure it would injure him or not?

I rode him again yesterday in the school. he was really hard work, not extending (which he does without being asked normally) throwing his head up when asked for trot and canter, which he never does, he always stays in a lovely outline through transitions, and when in canter he kept breaking into trot. He was so chopy, it was like riding a pony. He also had his ears back the whole time (not like him) I'm worrying the big change may damage his legs? He has fine TB legs and I don't want to put any strain on them. I have a lesson on tuesday, so I'll see if my instructor notices a difference.

 

[brighteyes]

I think it is really difficult to tell from photographs unless they have been taken on a flat, level surface with the the camera directly on the ground and at a perfect central position on the hoof.

Your farrier explained what he did and why and if it sounded reasonable to you at the time, it probably was.

Why do farriers spend years training to do the job, pass the exams and then suddenly decide to shoe horses in their own style? Do they do this?

Why do unqualified people think they can can pass comment on shoeing jobs and why do farriers disagree with one another's efforts?

It's a minefield!

An overhang on a shoe is generally to help the weight of the horse travel to the ground down the correct path and not through a line supplied by an incorrectly formed foot?

On the inside, they provide an unhelpful point for possible, accidental tread-removal.