New stabling advice

most traditional yards are 12ft by 12ft. a 4m x 4m stable would be generous by most yards. Anything under 12ft just wont fit a bigger horse comfortably.

You need to think wisely is it worth your while to invest in an arena, or are you better off just offering the hacking/jumps and a walker.

An arena is a big investment and you are looking at getting in drainage and good surfaces. You can't just put a good surface over concrete. I've been at yards with a 30m x 20m and its do-able. Especially if you have the good hacking available. But then financially will you get back your costs after putting an arena in? Its a big investment.
 
The indoor riding space just isn't going to be big enough. It needs to be 20m x 40m to be useable for anything other than lunging. If you are serious about creating a business then you will need to install an outdoor arena- an indoor surfaced area is a bonus, not a stand alone.
Be aware though, we run a full livery yard of 17 in a very nice purpose built yard with excellent facilities and it makes no money. There are so many over-heads. Your racehorse friend will also need staff to do even just 10 horses properly, and staff cost a lot of money!
 
HashRouge said:
It depends on your location and facilities. You really need to have a proper school, as opposed to just a walker or indoor lunging pen, or you will not attract the sort of clients who can afford to pay out for full livery. 20mx40m is the absolute minimum school size that you would get away with.
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Just an idea but have you ever seen a part cover school and part not covered? So we do the 24m x 24m already proposed which would be covered and allow an area in bad weather and then run a further 24m x 24m outside directly next to it and connected by a large 6m x 6m door that could be opened or closed? So the whole area would be 24m x 48m?
 
TheMule said:
The indoor riding space just isn't going to be big enough. It needs to be 20m x 40m to be useable for anything other than lunging. If you are serious about creating a business then you will need to install an outdoor arena- an indoor surfaced area is a bonus, not a stand alone.
Be aware though, we run a full livery yard of 17 in a very nice purpose built yard with excellent facilities and it makes no money. There are so many over-heads. Your racehorse friend will also need staff to do even just 10 horses properly, and staff cost a lot of money!
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What kind of weekly charge are you getting if you dont mind me asking?
 
atherstonestables said:
Well its all already lit well due to a its previous use internally as well as externally. Very roughly to put 10 stables in (ability to add 10 more at a later date) and then add a suitable base for schooling we are looking at about £20k. To put the nearest field into grass which is 60 acres with the view I would want to offer 2 acres per horse so that it does not get paddled and over used and then we would have 40 acres of grass for hay. Over the top but it wont yield properly for 2 years and by then we may of added the extra 10 stables so the long term view is 30 acres of grazing for 20 horses and 30 acres of hay. This would cost about £5k using a farmer to do the work. So add in a contingency and I think we could be up and running for about £30k and this would be good quality stables. I'd like to recoup that over 5 years and obviously pay the running costs.

I've been told today of two outfits about 15 miles away charging between £100-£140/week for full livery. Walker and menage on site but quite old stables. Is this about right price wise?
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I said well lit for riding, not for visiting, the indoor area proposed will not be large enough to ride in so unless you intend to put an outdoor arena in with floodlights I think you may struggle.

Obviously you know your land best but whether 2 acres per horse is much will depend on it, on well draining chalk it wasn't enough because of the soil depth, on low lying wet clay it is but only if carefully managed in winter.

If you go the part in part out arena route you may then be looking at needing to remove the concrete, have ridden in indoors with concrete bases and IMO they were unsafe.
 
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Have you got planning permission for change of use and have you found out what business rates you have to pay on the initial ten boxes? You will be rated for having an indoor arena even if it's a tiny one.
 
With an indoor walker, and stables a minimum of 4m x 4m - plus the installation of a floodlit allweather outdoor arena then you are starting to make it a more attractive proposition. Is the land good/well draining and are you willing to give up enough acreage that horses can get turnout all year round, if so that's another box ticked.

But I think you will be surprised at how much liveries expect for a proportionally small amount of rent! Add to that getting good staff is a nightmare (and with the number of horses you are thinking of this is not a one man job), plus business rates and insurance etc.

If you do a good job of the facilities and the management is right then I would work on the basis of achieving in the region of £120 a week to include basic feed, hay, set amount of bedding, and day to day care but excluding grooming/exercising and tack cleaning.
 
From how you describe it, it makes sense to you to run the business as easy and hassle free as possible. From being on livery yards 30 years till i got my own, that's not what you will get dealing with the general horse public, a good percentage of which are absolutely nuts from my experience.

Your hacking is a massive bonus, and it sounds like you could easily fit in some sort of walker or lunge pen. So you have a lot of positive options, it just mightn't be a typical livery yard.

If I was in your boat I'd be tempted to lease out the whole set up to someone who can take over the lease of the whole lot and save you the hassle of dealing with a ton of people. In reality your yard manager will have to deal with people who don't like the way the beds are mucked out, feel bullied by someone on the yard, someone has stolen their leadrope or used their flyspray. That's just average daily stuff. From what you say you want a stress free life (understandably!) so why not lease out to one person to take over, and just keep an eye on how they get on. People who run small eventing or race yards could be a good bet. You would get the cash for the facilitiers without getting your headwrecked by day to day issues
 
ester said:
I said well lit for riding, not for visiting, the indoor area proposed will not be large enough to ride in so unless you intend to put an outdoor arena in with floodlights I think you may struggle.

Obviously you know your land best but whether 2 acres per horse is much will depend on it, on well draining chalk it wasn't enough because of the soil depth, on low lying wet clay it is but only if carefully managed in winter.
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Its previous use was 24 hrs so its extremely well lit, probably to well for animals to be honest.
 
you may find that you will need another 2 bays. a small dressage arena is 20m x 40m and a long arena 20m x 60m if you have people that want to jump you will find that you will want something more like 25m wide. it may be better to cost with having a walker and possibly a grooming or farrier or wash area and solarium in the end that is not stabling as that will appeal more to the clients that have the sot of money you will need to be charging. even if you have full liveries the owners may well want to spend time with their horse and may want to bring in and groom when they have the time so you will need to be a lot more flexible about the access for the owners than your first post intimated. you also need to take into consideration the change of use (from I assume commercial) to equestrian and if the part of the building that is not stables is not large enough for an arena you will need to budget for one. from a quick addition in my head you may find that financially you will be better off to rent out the building as storage or similar as by the time you take the original capital costs of turning it into stabling and putting in an arena plus the costs of staff to keep the horses to a high standard as well as insurance (which will be high as staff will be exercising the horses) and feed bedding etc etc you will need to be running at a high capacity with not a lot of spare if someone leaves and the stable is empty for any length of time.
 
Sorry the figures no where stack up. 30K is only the start of it and im not sure thats realistic it will be 3k a box for decent internal boxes the arena surface will be 20k for a decent waxed surface as you could use nothing else under the same airspace as the stables. The extra bay on the shed will have no change from 20k either so thats 100k already!!

You will need PP for change of use on the land. You will lose the income from 60 acres of land which if on an FBT will be about 10k,you will also lose the potential industrial use rent you are already getting . Then you will have good old business rates as well roughly 12-15k . There are other potential pitfalls as well which may scupper the plan altogether. However cant comment as I dont know how your business operates but take it from somebody who knows it may break you rather than be a crock of gold.
 
When my boy was on full livery I paid £140 a week while he was being broken in and then £100 a week when he was being ridden away (4x a week, 1 school and 3 hacks).

Yard was fab, to give you an idea-
4 horses max per groom
Stable was 15ftx15ft, full rubber floor and rubber kick boards
Choice of bedding, I had shavings for mine. He's quite a messy boy and had 2/3 bales of shavings a week.
Ad lib hay or haylage
Pairs/small group turnout (I don't like individual). Each field was 4/5 acres and all had either really good natural shelter on three sides or a large wooden shelter.
My boy was better out at night and in by day, yard was flexible and accommodated this.
30x60 indoor and a 40x40 outdoor, had good set of show jumps etc
Lunge pen with its own set of poles
Horse walker (didn't ever see it used though)
loads of storage and I kept my Horsebox on site
They had something like 12 standard feeds, if you wanted anything else then you supplied/paid extra. These feeds were a couple of different chaffs, a few straights, nuts, a couple of balancers and something like racehorse mix. Enough choice to satisfy most people.
Some parts of the yard were purpose built and had everything thought out. Rubber walk ways, tie up areas, wash box with hot horse shower etc etc
Some parts were older but still tidy and of a good standard.

Hope that gives you an ideas on charges and expectations.

From your original post, the things I wouldn't like are:
Small stables- already covered
Heated stables - no need in this country. Yes to a heated tack room/kitchen area
Visiting times- I could visit any time of day to see, groom or ride my horse. I wouldn't be told when is suitable.
 
Where was that Catroo because that is cheap as chips!!
£140 for breaking livery?! That's only £10 a week more than I was paying for a standard part/full livery (depending on your definition of such!)

I'm starting to keep half an eye on potential breaking yards hence my interest!
 
ihatework said:
Where was that Catroo because that is cheap as chips!!
£140 for breaking livery?! That's only £10 a week more than I was paying for a standard part/full livery (depending on your definition of such!)

I'm starting to keep half an eye on potential breaking yards hence my interest!
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A yard near Ipswich, about 5yrs ago. I believe it's now been taken on by a producer
 
Well it is possible to ride in a 20x20 arena. Even possible to jump in one and that's with a large horse. Not big jumps but still possible. Got to be inventive. I wouldn't like that only though would want another arena too. It's good to have an indoor arena even if its a small one. Better than no indoor arena.

Dunno on costs of things but think you need to rethink some areas. You don't have to buy the horse feed even for full livery. Will be better to ask the owners to buy their own feed. My horse is on full livery for most of the week and I supply his feed. The yard supplies everything else.
 
atherstonestables said:
I asked around locally about hunts and there is one but apparently its on its last legs so probably not a long term customer base.
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Sorry but knowing that area you will never command the livery fees required there are many yards around and the only reason they are getting less is because they cant make it pay. The demand for your type of facilities will be very limited.
 
rachk89 said:
Well it is possible to ride in a 20x20 arena. Even possible to jump in one and that's with a large horse. Not big jumps but still possible. Got to be inventive. I wouldn't like that only though would want another arena too. It's good to have an indoor arena even if its a small one. Better than no indoor arena.

Dunno on costs of things but think you need to rethink some areas. You don't have to buy the horse feed even for full livery. Will be better to ask the owners to buy their own feed. My horse is on full livery for most of the week and I supply his feed. The yard supplies everything else.
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But people will not pay that for livery with limited facilities. They will expect two arenas for that number of boxes.
 
popsdosh said:
But people will not pay that for livery with limited facilities. They will expect two arenas for that number of boxes.
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That's why I said I would expect another arena too. We have two arenas the outdoor is much bigger. But the indoor although small is handy.
 
Yes what is possible, and what will attract people to the yard to pay the wanted fees are too different things.
Also I know the OP said one of the other yards had old stables? I don't think people worry too much about age of stables so long as weatherproof, I know I don't/it is very low on my scale of requirements compared to turnout and arena.
 
I reckon the OP would be much better off just converting to self storage units or something along that kind of line!
 
atherstonestables said:
Thank you for this nice reply. Until reading it I began to with agree with most peoples opinion about horse owners being arrogant, bossy and generally obnoxious. I am not even going to bother replying to any of the replies above yours as they come with that arrogant tone.
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I didn't read anything that was "arrogant, bossy and generally obnoxious", it was people who know what they're on about giving you the advice you asked for, and it does sound like you need the advice as you admit you are not horsey and therefore have no idea about what is required for horses.

Pearlsacarolsinger said:
Farmers very often make desdful live ry yard managers, as they treat horses like a herd of cattle.

You asked for opinions about your plans and you got factual responses from people weho gave up their time to help you. Should you go ahead, you will need to change your attitude towards your clients.
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Ditto all of this


atherstonestables said:
At the 'schooling' end of the shed I could add another bay easily enough which would then make that area 28m x 24m and this would not cost a great deal really as we would move the shed end out to the new bay meaning we would only need 1 set of metal work, roof cladding and side cladding.
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Still too small, absolute minimum of 20x40m as said already by others. Any smaller is a lunge pen, and for what you want to charge people wouldn't pay it for that.

atherstonestables said:
Well its all already lit well due to a its previous use internally as well as externally. Very roughly to put 10 stables in (ability to add 10 more at a later date) and then add a suitable base for schooling we are looking at about £20k.
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You're looking at significantly more... just a decent (and you would need decent) 20x40 arena is over 15k easily. You may save money if able to do some of the work yourself, but from what you've been saying I'd be getting a professional in who knows what they are doing.

atherstonestables said:
So add in a contingency and I think we could be up and running for about £30k and this would be good quality stables. I'd like to recoup that over 5 years and obviously pay the running costs.
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Sorry, but no chance... It will cost you way more to get up and running with sufficient facilities for the clientele you want to aim at, plus council rates, change of use, etc. Not to mention the cost of electricity and water... installing troughs in paddocks... horse-suitable fencing... etc...

atherstonestables said:
I've been told today of two outfits about 15 miles away charging between £100-£140/week for full livery. Walker and menage on site but quite old stables. Is this about right price wise?
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Most people don't mind old stables if they are safe and a decent size - they will want the facilities though. Have you looked at how much a walker costs?

atherstonestables said:
Just an idea but have you ever seen a part cover school and part not covered? So we do the 24m x 24m already proposed which would be covered and allow an area in bad weather and then run a further 24m x 24m outside directly next to it and connected by a large 6m x 6m door that could be opened or closed? So the whole area would be 24m x 48m?
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This potentially could work... however really you'd want to take down the entire end wall to create one big space. I wouldn't want to school where I could either do a circle indoors or a circle outdoors.


A livery yard run by somebody non-horsey can work very well - I'm on one! However the facilities are up to scratch and he pays experienced staff to run the yard day-to-day, and he manages the thing overall. Having a livery yard is a lifestyle choice - you don't get a day off so beware of that... it's a 24/7/365 industry and then some!

Good luck.
 
I think you're really in danger of falling between two markets here...

'Happy hackers' (leisure riders who mainly explore the countryside on horseback) might be fine without an arena but they aren't going to want to pay for your staff to exercise their horse (or possibly even to do more than 5 day livery - ie they will almost certainly want to economise by mucking out, feeding etc themselves at weekends) becasue if they have the kind of horse that is suited to that/don't need it schooled for their own purposes then it will be really easy for them to get a sharer to pay them for the privilege of riding a few days per week (and mucking out on those days too).

Most people who want or need to pay a professional to exercise their animal will want to do some form of competition/schooling which requires an arena. Polo and hunting may provide exceptions (in theory endurance might as well) but you'd need to be close to places those activities take place, and have at least a few staff with relevant (ie not racing) experience to be able to specialise really.

Edited to add: People will want to bring their own trainers on to site to teach them and you'll need to have some way of managing conflicts there - with 20 odd horses you could easily have 5 people wanting to ride in the arena at once at peak times and so having two (or one really long one that can be sectioned) would really help. Which isn't very economical...

Obviously there will be exceptions but your appeal without a good all weather surface of sufficient size will tend to be to those not looking to spend as much as you're hoping for on other facilities.

You'll also need to think about parking for horse transport becasue people need to take their animals to whatever competitions etc your staff are going to be keeping them fit for. You can charge extra for this but it would need to be secure and, if you also have caravans etc around probably well away from that area as towing someone's trailer off is not unheard of and having a lot of coming/going nearby might make people nervous.

Echo what has been said about individual storage for rugs/tack/grooming kits etc even if not feed. Especially as the kind of person who can afford to splash on your services will almost certainly be able to splash on a large wardrobe for their horse too!

Random thought: if you don't like horse owners much them offering something like retirement/recouperation livery might suit. You'd have to charge less (no exercising required) and probably people would expect field shelters but they wouldn't expect arenas and the more yard-oriented routine would be more accepted as owners wouldn't necessarily be up so frequently. You'd need to make sure your grazing could support all year turn out though. (60 acres for 20 horses sounds right in theory but a lot depends on the land).
 
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Pearlsacarolsinger said:
This. Also a concrete base for an indoor school is a bad idea. It would be better to take up the concrete in that area. School needs to be at least 20x40.
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I have a concrete floor in mine. It's excellent. With decent depth, it rides exactly the same as any other indoor school.
 
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