New stabling advice

Likewise people not paying their rent wouldn't be offered any assistance. They would be removed from the site.
Click to expand...

Where are you going to remove this large, live animal to?


Perhaps I'll ask the same question on one of the farming forums as farmers tend to know the score most things.
Click to expand...

You ask a really knowledgeable audience who would be your customer base, don't like the answers you've been given, insult the 'arrogant' customer base, and go and ask another group until you get the answer you want?

Good luck with your new business venture :D !
 
Last edited:
I would suggest a system like a yard I used to visit .
It had a corral at the entertrance gate .
The horses of non payers were put in the corral .
 
Goldenstar said:
I would suggest a system like a yard I used to visit .
It had a corral at the entertrance gate .
The horses of non payers were put in the corral .
Click to expand...

And starved? Left in the rain in wet stable rugs?

Genuinely interested GS. Yard owner would still have a duty of care, wouldn't they?


PS I love the idea of an entertrance gate. Can I buy one somewhere, I could do with it :D ? Swype is such fun!
 
Last edited:
ycbm said:
And starved? Left in the rain in wet stable rugs?

Genuinely interested GS. Yard owner would still have a duty of care, wouldn't they?


PS I love the idea of an entertrance gate. Can I buy one somewhere, I could do with it :D ? Swype is such fun!
Click to expand...

It doesn't rain in Cloud Cuckoo land.
 
popsdosh said:
Show jumps make no difference at all to business rates assessment they are based mainly on floor area and rental value.
Click to expand...

I think there are some councils which change the rating to leisure/business from agricultural use if you leave show jumps permanently in a field?
 
OP I admire you trying to research this.
May I suggest you move away from the livery yard idea & consider using your potential manager's expertise to set up a pre-training & rehab/rest yard for racehorses. This will do away with the need to squeeze in an arena as a walker & lunge pen will suffice.

If you wish to develop the tracks why not consider a Farm Ride?
 
glamourpuss said:
OP I admire you trying to research this.
May I suggest you move away from the livery yard idea & consider using your potential manager's expertise to set up a pre-training & rehab/rest yard for racehorses. This will do away with the need to squeeze in an arena as a walker & lunge pen will suffice.

If you wish to develop the tracks why not consider a Farm Ride?
Click to expand...

This sounds a viable option and more suited to your set-up.
 
FfionWinnie said:
It doesn't rain in Cloud Cuckoo land.
Click to expand...

No seriously that is what this yard had .
It's still my benchmark for a well run DIY yard .
I don't know if the YOer ever used it but it certainly let all the clients know you did not muck this YOer around .
It was a big yard certainly 50 horses but he ran the yard the management was present and not afraid to manage people and tell them that if they fell below the standards required they were out .
And you know it had a great atmosphere because people knew where they stood.
He was not friends with any one it was his buisness and ran it like a buisness .
I used to go there when I was a welfare officer because it was a great place to track down owners of horses we were monitoring because lots of people there knew everybody .
 
glamourpuss said:
OP I admire you trying to research this.
May I suggest you move away from the livery yard idea & consider using your potential manager's expertise to set up a pre-training & rehab/rest yard for racehorses. This will do away with the need to squeeze in an arena as a walker & lunge pen will suffice.

If you wish to develop the tracks why not consider a Farm Ride?
Click to expand...

That's a good point, someone set up something similar near us on limited land quantity for horse number. http://newbarnfarmstables.co.uk/
 
Knowing your area from a few years ago, neither hunting or polo are likely to be successful target markets for you in my opinion.

As you correctly identified there is only one hunt in your area; it is a farmers hunt rather than a posh Shires hunt and sadly is indeed having financial issues.

As for the polo fraternity, you have two large established competitors in your area: Dallas Burston and the Baker brothers. Between them, I would suggest that they have the market sewn up.
 
neddy man said:
if the fields are agricultural rated (not buisiness) they change
Click to expand...

Sorry you are getting mixed up between change of planning use and business rates . Agricultural land is not rated and neither is land used by horses only the buildings. However you need a change of use from agriculture to equestrian by the planning department and that can be triggered by all sorts of things ie feeding supplementary feed to horses in a field not just showjumps
 
tonitot said:
I agree with everyone else. The idea of all horses being fed the same must have come from your friend as horses in training are all fed the same feed unless they are off work due to injury or just having a break. It works for racehorses because they're all doing the same type of work for the same job. In my opinion this wouldn't work on a livery yard as it would be odd to feed someone's happy hacker the same feed as someone else's eventer.
Click to expand...



This. Even the 5 we have, have different feeds. The three who are over 15 have feeds suitable for veterans, the other two have different needs as they are natives and much younger.
There is no way i would put even our 11.2hh Welsh section A in a 3m x 3m stable, for my husbands 16hh Shire x no chance. I agree it would be financial suicide.
 
Knowing the area I'm trying to think where you are OP! There is some sound advice on this thread.
I suspect unless you have the skills, man power and equipment to do the majority of installing the stables, putting in a school, doing the fencing and water troughs etc and so are therefore able to cut set up costs more than most, you might find this financially unviable.
Plus, it is not an area where there is a great requirement for full livery that is all singing, all dancing (as far as I'm aware) however some of the other suggestions made of either setting up and renting the yard as a whole, retirement livery and/or turning the tracks into a public riding area still sound like they may be viable. For some ideas for potential off road riding you could look at the following: http://www.tollrides.org.uk, UK chasers and riders (There is or was a course in Burton hastings not too far from you) Near me is a farm who has about 8 miles of headland grass tracks and xc fences- it's well maintained and popular, it's £25 a go or locals can buy a pass for £150 for 6 months unlimited use per horse. Might be something to think about if you decide having a yard isn't the direction to go in after all.
 
Hi everybody and thank for the many replies. I cannot reply to each one individually but a summarized reply in no particular order is as follows:

1. My current business involves some construction. We have the equipment and staff to put in a menage for very little money. I can add a bay to the existing shed for about £2500 and its literally a 2 day job to put the foundations in and frame up. Cladding another 2 days. As an example we fabricated and built an industrial unit last year which is 24m long x 20m wide x 9m high. The whole thing including concreted floor, electrics, water was £40,000. What this thread has shown is how so many people get ripped off on things. And the figure suggested for the stables is just silly.

2. The stables I already have a price for and again we would erect them very easily.

3. Business rates are just on the shed the horses 'live in'. I have had the ratings officer out prior to christmas and have it in writing the ratable value and its less than industrial units so not a big deal in the grand scheme of things.

4. The farmland is not on an FBT or AHA tenancy. Its more flexible than that but on the same token I am not wanting all the land back as it does not suit my overall business model. It provides a reliable rent but putting horses on it even for just grazing earn much more per acre. Only today I've been to a DIY yard which even the owner admits is now well run down. She had 15 stables all full paying £40/week each including grazing, water and electricity. Her net income from the rent on the 60 acres attached to it is bringing in £260/acre.

5. We would not be wanting to open the rides to pubic charged use as it would mean collecting money from mutiple people or honesty boxes. We also dont want lots of horse boxes parked everywhere when somebody has decided to come for a ride. The 10 miles of rides we already have that are not currently being used would be included in the stabling business for its sole use.

6. I do very much like the idea of a site for retired race horses though. Potentially we have an in road to this anyway via my friend. He is visiting this weekend so I am sure by monday I will know whether we have a 'goer' or not.

7. The comment about 'non payers' though and how it would be dealt with. Non payment would see their belongings confiscated and this would include the horse. I am afraid its just how it is. In this day and age anybody taking a service knowing that they may not be able to pay is not on so dealt with quickly and honestly. I am honest and upfront with any new tenant so everybody is clear on the rules. Putting people in small claims court is nowadays very easy and very cost efficient. We represent ourselves with facts only and to date have never lost. If you enter into a contract whether its verbally or on paper you are committing to upholding your end of the deal. If your own situation changes, such as loosing a job, a sympathetic view is obviously taken but the first thing that should happen is you readjust your lifestyle and if this means selling the horse, then so be it. Nobody is entitled to a freeby in this life and nobody would be taking me for a ride. I am a business man. End of.

8. I've spoken to a dozen farmers the last few days about the local hunt and its most certainly not a farmers hunt is the general consensus. More like villagers and countryfolk with the odd farmer rider. But the warning of staying away from them as they are looking for new hunt stables was mentioned on more than one occasion. No idea about particular details but its enough for me to walk in the opposite direction.

Again thank you for all the replies and I'll check back early next week and fill you all in on the decision.
 
amymay said:
I'm afraid this leapt out for me too.
Click to expand...

I will just answer this point though as I've been misunderstood. Obviously anybody could visit their own horse whenever they wanted and I did mention that after my initial post somewhere. What I meant was if we had a routine and you wanted your horse to be ridden out daily then it would obviously end up with an allotted time for us to do that for you. It would be silly for us to do that randomly at different times everyday because when you turned up it might be 5 miles away. So what I meant was you would know what your horse was doing throughout the day and then it would be up to you to decided when best to visit which would also slot into your work I would of thought.
 
Forgive me if I have missed this, but it would appear that this is an ex-industrial unit, fully sealed/weatherproof....especially given your comments on heating?

If this is so.....has any consideration been given to ventilation/amount of airspace per horse/air changes per hour.....a closed environment is potentially very unhealthy for horses. The risks of cross infection are greatly increased in an enclosed area.
 
It's manege, not menage. A common mistake even among horse people. Call it an arena instead, it's easier.

It doesn't matter how much equipment and labour you have, you cannot put in an arena for 'very little money'. You can put it in for lower cost, if you know enough about arena drainage. But the materials arenas have to be built out of are very specialist and very costly. If you do not get exactly the right silica sand, it will be useless. Ditto if you don't get the right fibre or rubber topping you could be paying a fortune in labour to keep the thing usable. Please get advice from professional arena builders even of you do all the work and material sourcing yourself. But be VERY wary on the specification for the silica sand. There are unusable arenas all over the country where the silica sand wasn't the right silica sand.
 
You need to understand that if you seize a horse in non payment of a debt and send it unwarranted to a meat market to recoup a few hundred pounds, which will be your only sensible option to dispose of it, you will be completely vilified by the local horse/loving owning community. It's a viable option but you most certainly won't be popular!
 
atherstonestables said:
I will just answer this point though as I've been misunderstood. Obviously anybody could visit their own horse whenever they wanted and I did mention that after my initial post somewhere. What I meant was if we had a routine and you wanted your horse to be ridden out daily then it would obviously end up with an allotted time for us to do that for you. It would be silly for us to do that randomly at different times everyday because when you turned up it might be 5 miles away. So what I meant was you would know what your horse was doing throughout the day and then it would be up to you to decided when best to visit which would also slot into your work I would of thought.
Click to expand...


'If we have a routine'.

Many people keep their horses on full livery precisely because they do not have a routine. Working people paying full livery will expect their horse to be available to ride, or added to the exercise list, at a maximum of notice given the night before.

You cannot simply allot a time when the horse will be ridden out every single day and tell owners to work around it.

Are you aware that working people may tell you at ten at night that they intend to ride the horse at six am before work? I used to do this frequently, it was the only way I could fit my horse into my professional life. Ditto, you might get a call at 2pm saying a meeting is running late and you need to exercise the horse that day.
 
Last edited:
atherstonestables said:
Hi everybody and thank for the many replies. I cannot reply to each one individually but a summarized reply in no particular order is as follows:

1. My current business involves some construction. We have the equipment and staff to put in a menage for very little money. I can add a bay to the existing shed for about £2500 and its literally a 2 day job to put the foundations in and frame up. Cladding another 2 days. As an example we fabricated and built an industrial unit last year which is 24m long x 20m wide x 9m high. The whole thing including concreted floor, electrics, water was £40,000. What this thread has shown is how so many people get ripped off on things. And the figure suggested for the stables is just silly.

2. The stables I already have a price for and again we would erect them very easily.

3. Business rates are just on the shed the horses 'live in'. I have had the ratings officer out prior to christmas and have it in writing the ratable value and its less than industrial units so not a big deal in the grand scheme of things.

4. The farmland is not on an FBT or AHA tenancy. Its more flexible than that but on the same token I am not wanting all the land back as it does not suit my overall business model. It provides a reliable rent but putting horses on it even for just grazing earn much more per acre. Only today I've been to a DIY yard which even the owner admits is now well run down. She had 15 stables all full paying £40/week each including grazing, water and electricity. Her net income from the rent on the 60 acres attached to it is bringing in £260/acre.

5. We would not be wanting to open the rides to pubic charged use as it would mean collecting money from mutiple people or honesty boxes. We also dont want lots of horse boxes parked everywhere when somebody has decided to come for a ride. The 10 miles of rides we already have that are not currently being used would be included in the stabling business for its sole use.

6. I do very much like the idea of a site for retired race horses though. Potentially we have an in road to this anyway via my friend. He is visiting this weekend so I am sure by monday I will know whether we have a 'goer' or not.

7. The comment about 'non payers' though and how it would be dealt with. Non payment would see their belongings confiscated and this would include the horse. I am afraid its just how it is. In this day and age anybody taking a service knowing that they may not be able to pay is not on so dealt with quickly and honestly. I am honest and upfront with any new tenant so everybody is clear on the rules. Putting people in small claims court is nowadays very easy and very cost efficient. We represent ourselves with facts only and to date have never lost. If you enter into a contract whether its verbally or on paper you are committing to upholding your end of the deal. If your own situation changes, such as loosing a job, a sympathetic view is obviously taken but the first thing that should happen is you readjust your lifestyle and if this means selling the horse, then so be it. Nobody is entitled to a freeby in this life and nobody would be taking me for a ride. I am a business man. End of.

8. I've spoken to a dozen farmers the last few days about the local hunt and its most certainly not a farmers hunt is the general consensus. More like villagers and countryfolk with the odd farmer rider. But the warning of staying away from them as they are looking for new hunt stables was mentioned on more than one occasion. No idea about particular details but its enough for me to walk in the opposite direction.

Again thank you for all the replies and I'll check back early next week and fill you all in on the decision.
Click to expand...
My first observation is with your wealth of knowledge and your friend on board why did you need to pick brains on here ,as you certainly seem to think you know it all and more than any who have replied


Im sorry my figures are a hell of a lot closer to reality than yours its something I know a lot about Most of the cost of the arena is surface and you will need a waxed one being in the same airspace as the horses my budget was just for that.

Two things in there I will warn you about though if you dont have the land on any form of tenancy agreement watch out. Theres nothing you can do to stop the person farming it claiming one and if it ends up AHA your well stuffed. unless maybe they are contract farming it for you.
The comment about non payers its illegal to confiscate property or horse a yard locally tried it cost them 8K in court and they were only owed £200
You didnt make any comment about planning on the grazing as I guess your just going to skate past that and keep claiming farm payments
Have you had any expert input on ventilation as you cannot just put up stables in existing space without knowing its critical

Good luck your gonna need it.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top