ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Do you have an issue with any of the advice which I have offered the OP?
New stabling advice
- Thread starter atherstonestables
- Start date
Do you have an issue with any of the advice which I have offered the OP?
be positive
Well-Known Member
A few other thoughts that I am not sure have been mentioned, is anybody going to live on site? I would expect a full livery facility to have a person on site 24/7, you make no mention of there being any accommodation, the other would be are you expecting to make a real profit from this venture as you sound very similar to a local businessman who bought a similar sized facility which had been running in profit for several years, he expected to continue to see a profit but after 12 months he realised that paying a manager, staff and all the overheads meant there was very little left at the end of the month certainly nothing to make it a good investment, it closed down and went up for sale.
Most equestrian businesses are run as a lifestyle choice, they can make some money but rarely cover the full investment involved, keeping ones own horses, spending many hours working for peanuts is considered normal for many yard owners, making money is possible but seeing a return on the capital is unlikely unless the property goes up for sale, paying a manager and at least one staff member will take the majority of the profit and your income is likely to be far smaller than you would hope from what will be a small yard.
Most equestrian businesses are run as a lifestyle choice, they can make some money but rarely cover the full investment involved, keeping ones own horses, spending many hours working for peanuts is considered normal for many yard owners, making money is possible but seeing a return on the capital is unlikely unless the property goes up for sale, paying a manager and at least one staff member will take the majority of the profit and your income is likely to be far smaller than you would hope from what will be a small yard.
popsdosh
Well-Known Member
With that number of horses they will need 4-5 staff to do it properly with the exercising.
be positive
Well-Known Member
I agree but I think the Op is under the impression he can manage with just 1 or 2 and he probably will as I cannot see many takers for a full exercise livery unless it becomes a pretraining yard which is probably what the potential YM is best qualified to run.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
popsdosh
Well-Known Member
If its 1 or 2 at least they wont get bored.
Coming from the racing industry they wont be working for peanuts either ! Then you need to house them. Hope the OPs not being lead astray here.
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popsdosh
Well-Known Member
Spare me! We would argue day and night!!
Exactly.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
cobgoblin
Bugrit! Millennium hand and shrimp.
On the subject of ventilation and given that all the horses will be sharing the same airspace...how are you going to manage any horses that have copd? There is also no mention of individual doors or windows to the exterior and those in the completely interior aisle will have no possibility of anywhere to look out at all..I can't really see this being a popular choice for customers.
You mention growing hay, but not haylage...which many horse owners feed in order to maintain a dust free regime whether their horses have copd or not.
In addition, given that there will not be any separate loose boxes....what provisions are available for isolation in the case of infectious diseases?
You mention growing hay, but not haylage...which many horse owners feed in order to maintain a dust free regime whether their horses have copd or not.
In addition, given that there will not be any separate loose boxes....what provisions are available for isolation in the case of infectious diseases?
atherstonestables
Member
15 mins spare from my day job and log on to more criticism. The two you quote are exactly the type of people I would not allow onto the yard and if if they slipped through and then started moaning once in they would be removed very quickly. I just get the impression some horsey people think the world owes them for some reason. Its quite funny really and I like the fact people think my 22 years of construction is worth nothing. What is a fact without doubt is some of the figures people have quoted. They have either been bent over terribly or are just trying to get a reaction. If its the latter then they've got something missing from their lives if they can spend all day on a horse forum moaning at people.
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ihatework
Well-Known Member
Do you know what atherstonestables, it sounds like you have a superb business plan. I'd get going asap, time is money as they say. I look forwards to reading about your successful equestrian business in due course. Good luck!
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cobgoblin
Bugrit! Millennium hand and shrimp.
If you can't cope with people ( moaning or not) then you really shouldn't open a livery yard.
atherstonestables
Member
Beginning to think that actually as it appears some horse owners just love creating problems.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Do, please enlighten me as to exactly which piece of advice I spent my time giving you since you last logged on that would be cause for you to ban me from your yard?
Because if you have taken exception to any of it, then you would never have me on your yard in the first place to be able to ban.
I doubt you'd have many other clients either, with your attitude.
Fun thread though, thanks for the entertainment
Rosiejazzandpia
Well-Known Member
Exactly what I was thinking. I think OP should go spend a week on a large yard to see the horrors of the livery yard world. Of course there are good and bad, but with livery yards I've always found the bad outweighed the good sadly. Good luck OP, you're definitely going to need it
cobgoblin
Bugrit! Millennium hand and shrimp.
We have all answered your queries about facilities with knowledge obtained from years of using/running livery yards. The questions we have asked will, if not addressed, be echoed by your future liveries...especially if you are thinking of charging top notch prices.
As in any business involving animals, the owners are perhaps the largest part.....they are the ones paying the huge bills and they are the ones that can voice their concerns and dissatisfaction. They can also leave en masse, as I have seen on a number of occasions.
If you think this forum is critical....just wait until you run a livery yard.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
I have no idea why someone who has come onto the forum to test the water with a buisness idea would make a post like this .
I have run yards and have to tell you it's a lot more challenging in real life .
I would advise that the first thing you do is check what your local market needs there's no point in offering a full service if there's not enough clients needing that service .
Turnout is a big thing for livery clients if you have enough acres and organise it well so you genuinely can offer daily turnout all year in well managed well maintained paddocks tocater for various needs of different types of horses this will be a plus with potential cilents .
You will need to look at the ventilation in the building very care fully horses have extremely delicate airways and American type barns often suffer from bad air if your cilents horses cough they will move on fast .
I think the good off road hacking is a big plus .
I seem to remember further down the thread that you will want to close the yard part of the day I think this will be an issue and will defiantly be impossible at the weekends.
I also think as you won't have staff on site a cctv system linked to the managers iPad /I phone is a must .
My friend runs a yard and lives off site and uses a system like this .
Don't underestimate the length of time the yard will need to be open you will in all ilikely hood have people wanting to ride from 7am to 9 pm this puts considerable strain on an off site manager .
Whatever space you have set aside for storage set aside more because there's never enough .
You will need a very secure tackroom think that out carefully .
Set aside enough outside hardstanding for lorry/ trailer parking it also needs to be secure and be sure to charge for it .
Your going to need a decent large outside surface IMO with floodlights to draw cilents your buildings too small for the stables you want and a decent school .
I would defiantly have a inside horse walker though it will save your bacon when it snows or is very icy and might allow you to get boxrest rehab type horses which is another avenue to look at .
Auslander
Well-Known Member
Not going to get involved in the "horsey people" side of things - although, as a yard owner, I could probably tell you exactly how it is!
Practically speaking though - I appreciate that you have many years of construction experience, but things like school surface/stable construction/ventilation for horses are things that you wouldn't necessarily know about, as they are unique to the equine market. As an example of where I think you are, I'm a copywriter/editor with 20 years experience of writing for the veterinary/animal health market. If I was asked to write about deep sea fishing, I could have a good stab at it, and know whatever I wrote would be well constructed and readable, but I wouldn't know if it was any good for that audience, because I know nothing about fishing.
blitznbobs
Well-Known Member
I agree with the above, if you get so offended then don't get in a public facing day to day business you'll be very very unhappy and you're yard will never be full, no matter how good your facilities are.
KittenInTheTree
Well-Known Member
Alternatively...
Full grass livery with two acres grazing provided per horse, but clients can opt to have their own horses in together if preferred.
All field maintenance and fencing provided as part of the livery package.
Ad-lib hay/haylage fed in the field as needed, included in price of livery.
Clients responsible for any additional feed and supplements, but you supply them with storage for it - a communal feed room, with individually assigned metal bins with locks.
A secure heated tack room for every client, and an allocated spot in the barn to bring in to and tie up to feed, groom, tack up, stand for vet/farrier etc for every horse - think individual wash bays instead of stables.
A secure heated rug storage room, with individual lockers for rugs not in use, and heated rug racks to dry the rest. NB - Do not ever mix up rugs or swop them between horses, find some fool proof method of knowing who wears what rug! Regular rug cleaning, mending, and reproofing service provided/arranged.
Livery package includes having a competent person available to catch in and hold horse for vet/farrier/dentist etc in owner's absence, but clients are responsible for booking and paying their own vet/farrier/dentist.
Daily checks provided in field, to include bringing in once per day for feed, grooming, rug change, etc. Owner notified of any injury or illness found during checks, vet called on owner's behalf in case of emergency.
Quarantine area for new or sick horses - either an isolation paddock, or an area of hard standing. If using hard standing then remember to provide a shelter so that there is a bed for the horse to lie down and/or roll on.
Safe parking for clients' horseboxes.
Access to the off road tracks for riding.
Outdoor school if there's space for a decent one, bigger the better, and put a meter in for the floodlights. Don't bother with an indoor, there isn't room in the space you've described, and they're horrible dusty, noisy things to ride in anyhow.
Exercising available by arrangement at an additional cost.
Locker room area for clients - somewhere to store valuables whilst riding, just add a kitchenette in one corner, and provide a decent loo and somewhere to wash hands.
Full grass livery with two acres grazing provided per horse, but clients can opt to have their own horses in together if preferred.
All field maintenance and fencing provided as part of the livery package.
Ad-lib hay/haylage fed in the field as needed, included in price of livery.
Clients responsible for any additional feed and supplements, but you supply them with storage for it - a communal feed room, with individually assigned metal bins with locks.
A secure heated tack room for every client, and an allocated spot in the barn to bring in to and tie up to feed, groom, tack up, stand for vet/farrier etc for every horse - think individual wash bays instead of stables.
A secure heated rug storage room, with individual lockers for rugs not in use, and heated rug racks to dry the rest. NB - Do not ever mix up rugs or swop them between horses, find some fool proof method of knowing who wears what rug! Regular rug cleaning, mending, and reproofing service provided/arranged.
Livery package includes having a competent person available to catch in and hold horse for vet/farrier/dentist etc in owner's absence, but clients are responsible for booking and paying their own vet/farrier/dentist.
Daily checks provided in field, to include bringing in once per day for feed, grooming, rug change, etc. Owner notified of any injury or illness found during checks, vet called on owner's behalf in case of emergency.
Quarantine area for new or sick horses - either an isolation paddock, or an area of hard standing. If using hard standing then remember to provide a shelter so that there is a bed for the horse to lie down and/or roll on.
Safe parking for clients' horseboxes.
Access to the off road tracks for riding.
Outdoor school if there's space for a decent one, bigger the better, and put a meter in for the floodlights. Don't bother with an indoor, there isn't room in the space you've described, and they're horrible dusty, noisy things to ride in anyhow.
Exercising available by arrangement at an additional cost.
Locker room area for clients - somewhere to store valuables whilst riding, just add a kitchenette in one corner, and provide a decent loo and somewhere to wash hands.
popsdosh
Well-Known Member
I wouldnt moan about it at all ,I have been on the other side and just trying to put you right so you dont feel like youve stood in the shower tearing up fifty pound notes.! The costings are very accurate and based on 5 quotes but admittedly for quality set ups as you will very soon find out people paying top dollar for livery expect the best and they expect you to bend over backwards to give it too them ,sadly your business model will be worthless without them. Several very knowledgeable people tried to help and I wonder why we do ,when you dont seem to want to take any of it on board. Taking advice from somebody in the racing industry is not going to help you create a livery yard they are not use to the ins and outs of clients coming in to excersise and school their own horses.
Dont think I will waste any more time trying to help as hope for your sake you are the figment of somebodies imagination personally.
popsdosh
Well-Known Member
To try and help if you visit this website you may find the sort of bargain basement stables etc you are looking for ,and whats more the liveries wont answer back!! Have fun choosing but the bottom one on the left looks the best.
http://www.ponyclubstore.co.uk/barns--stables-19-c.asp
http://www.ponyclubstore.co.uk/barns--stables-19-c.asp
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atherstonestables
Member
Well we had a meeting yesterday along with my friend and he also brought his current boss (race yard owner) along and if we do anything it will be stables in said shed with the small indoor arena. It would be used for recuperation/rehab of race horses. We would provide the infrastructure and it would be effectively be rented by the race yard owner and run by my friend who wants to relocate back to this area. Apparently the yard owner knows of a water horse walker within 20 miles which is usable but has no stabling or grazing, so that along with our facility makes it viable for his yard to use and he will then offer the facility to other race yards. He would use the rides as required also along with some grazing.
We will also consider offering grazing only as he wont use anywhere near the whole field we would grass down and then charge for that and the use of the rides to anybody looking for that kind of thing.
Thank you everybody for your input though.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Your friend will need top notch contacts to make this work. I have done a very quick Google of rehabilitation yards in Warwickshire and I have stopped counting at six. There are obviously more. Your area is clearly well supplied with rehabilitation facilities including a state of the art facility at Moreton Morrell and at least one other centre with a hydrotherapy unit.
I also cannot think of a worse thing to use to rehabilitate a racehorse than a tiny arena, either to work in our to turn out in.
Good luck, though. Can you please come back and post some pictures when it's done?
I also cannot think of a worse thing to use to rehabilitate a racehorse than a tiny arena, either to work in our to turn out in.
Good luck, though. Can you please come back and post some pictures when it's done?
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be positive
Well-Known Member
I think the OP is lucky that there is a viable option with little risk other than the initial outlay, the race yard owner/ trainer?? will be renting the facilities as a whole, paying the outgoings and if they are based in Newmarket, I think Suffolk was mentioned earlier, there are thousands of horses in training in yards with little or no turnout so moving them out to somewhere with grazing while they are rehabilitated, presumably the aim for most to go back to racing, makes perfect sense.
The YM should be experienced in this side of the equine business, the owners will not be coming in to ride so it is not going to be a livery yard in the true sense which most of us said was not a good business idea, whether the facilities are good enough is probably fairly irrelevant as most racehorse owners are expected to pay the bill and not be involved in decision making, they will be told the horse is going away for recovery and most will accept that.
The YM should be experienced in this side of the equine business, the owners will not be coming in to ride so it is not going to be a livery yard in the true sense which most of us said was not a good business idea, whether the facilities are good enough is probably fairly irrelevant as most racehorse owners are expected to pay the bill and not be involved in decision making, they will be told the horse is going away for recovery and most will accept that.
atherstonestables
Member
This is effectively spot on. I think the fact the shed already has got offices in it along with male/female toilets and kitchen facilities has helped as well as it gives him a proper base in this area and like you say suffolk is a bit busy with horses so space is at a premium. Just over an hour to the west of where he is based now and its much easier to find what he is looking for. Just got to do some number crunching now for what we want to make out of it and get a draft lease drawn up which we can do this week, then check the set up costs again before deciding whether to go or on.
I think this is the only option for us as this tread and reading others on this forum has put me off dealing with some horse owners. Industrial unit tenants ask for something and we say no, thats it they accept it because its a business decision. This is not directed at any one in particular but a general observation is that some horse owners wouldn't accept a decision like that which ultimately means we would remove them. Thats hassle stress etc we dont need and somebody rings me at 10pm wanting their horse ready the following morning at 6am wouldn't like the response they would get which would be if you want your horse at 6am to ride you'd better come in at 5am and get it ready then.
So we will see what happens over the next few days and I'll report back. The yard owner mentioned some other facilities but he said they were not private enough and moreton morrell is an hour from us which he said was a very good set up. He's looking for his own though and had I known that I probably would not of asked on here as most of the questions are answered.
throughtheforest
Well-Known Member
Hi Op, it might not be viable business-wise, however there is certainly a new market opening up for laminitic rehabilitation or suitable living system for horses that effectively cannot tolerate much grazing. As you state there is plenty of grazing left over I would seriously look into turning this into a paddock paradise system. Laminitis is one of the biggest causes of horses being pts in the UK, research has shown that the track system provides the ideal living for horses that would potentially be pts or spend the rest of their lives in a 12×12. You could develop links or ask equine veterinary practices for advise on possible client referral, or market this as a grass livery option as above. It would fit in with a rehabilitation model but the cliental would be slightly different. I have found next to no places that provide this system, yet so many people are in need of it for their horses- I've had to make my own. It's just something else to look into for you.
I can totally empathise with the idea of some horse owners being bolshy and the problems with liveries can be extensive so I like your business approach to the idea and so long as contracts are drawn up and all requests are reasonable I see that you could make this model work.
Best of luck.
I can totally empathise with the idea of some horse owners being bolshy and the problems with liveries can be extensive so I like your business approach to the idea and so long as contracts are drawn up and all requests are reasonable I see that you could make this model work.
Best of luck.
blackhor2e
Well-Known Member
As a full livery client (not in your area). My take on what you have said obviously shows holes in your horsey knowledge, but nothing that cannot be picked up quickly.
My horse is based at quite a well known livery place up north, and we do pay a huge chunk each month to be there. So we have the following facilities in return -
A farm ride (track around the fields with optional jumps)
An indoor (Andrew Bowen surface)
An outdoor (different surface, slightly deeper)
A range of show jumps set up
All fields are fenced and horses go out in pairs, approximately 1-2acres per pair
A place to park our Horsebox
For full livery I expect all the regular duties to be done and when I come down, which is usually at a certain time after work each day my horse is groomed and ready for me to tack up and ride.
Horses are provided with hay / haylage depending on the owners choice. Feed is pretty standard across the board, with some horses getting more or less than others. Supplements aren't provided.
We have a tack room (saddles, bridles etc) and we have a rug room with additional storage (lockers) to put the rest of our horses grooming kit etc in.
We have a seperate stable in the barn which is a 'wash box' in this horses can be washed off with warm water, clipped, stand for veterinary procedures etc
We do have about 1 groom to 6 horses, and they do drop the ball (so to speak) quite often so they do need to be under quite tight management to keep the liveries happy.
I can't think of anything else right now but hope that helps
My horse is based at quite a well known livery place up north, and we do pay a huge chunk each month to be there. So we have the following facilities in return -
A farm ride (track around the fields with optional jumps)
An indoor (Andrew Bowen surface)
An outdoor (different surface, slightly deeper)
A range of show jumps set up
All fields are fenced and horses go out in pairs, approximately 1-2acres per pair
A place to park our Horsebox
For full livery I expect all the regular duties to be done and when I come down, which is usually at a certain time after work each day my horse is groomed and ready for me to tack up and ride.
Horses are provided with hay / haylage depending on the owners choice. Feed is pretty standard across the board, with some horses getting more or less than others. Supplements aren't provided.
We have a tack room (saddles, bridles etc) and we have a rug room with additional storage (lockers) to put the rest of our horses grooming kit etc in.
We have a seperate stable in the barn which is a 'wash box' in this horses can be washed off with warm water, clipped, stand for veterinary procedures etc
We do have about 1 groom to 6 horses, and they do drop the ball (so to speak) quite often so they do need to be under quite tight management to keep the liveries happy.
I can't think of anything else right now but hope that helps