New to Horses and could do with some behavioural assistance

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BoxCleva

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Hi,
New horse (Pony) owner needing some assistance. I'm not sure if this is in the correct place, but here goes.

Six months ago we (My Wife and I) bought a 4 year old 14h Welsh Sec D gelding for my 14 yr old daughter.
Initially he was docile, well mannered, and with a couple of exceptions, obedient. Over the last two weeks however his behaviour is getting gradually worse. He regularly puts the brakes on when ridden or in hand and flatly refuses to budge despite all the usual methods of encouragement. He has reared/bucked a couple of times when my daughter has ridden him or walked him. He is also boisterous when out and in the stable. He often barges into us when we are either in the stable or outside.
Today my daughter wanted to do some in hand work with him in the school. On entering the school he bucked and reared , then rolled over on his back. When he settled down he repeatedly put the brakes on and refused to move.

We are far from experienced owners, but infinitely more experienced people at the stable have had issues with him as well.

I suppose my question is , what has happened to the mild mannered pony we bought 6 months ago ? And what techniques can we employ to stop this wayward behaviour before it escalates even further ? I don't know if its relevant but he has been given a clean bill of health by the farrier, dentist and vet.

Many thanks
 
Did he have a really busy summer with your daughter and maybe is being ridden less now that the clocks have changed?
Else it may be the honeymoon period is over and he is testing here a bit.
Have you asked her instructor their opinion?
 
Thanks for your reply. He is ridden the same regardless of weather / clock change etc (my daughter is more hard core than I am ! ) . We don't currently have a trainer as the only one that visits this area can only come during week days whilst daughter is at school.
He may well be testing. Its knowing what to do about it that's the trouble.
 
he's 4 and a Section D. He's stronger than he was 6 months ago and possibly getting mixed messages from your daughter who is quite young.Its difficult for kids to give consistent handling to horses and youngsters really need it.

By all means get him checked by a vet but you really need a good instructor on board-is there one local to you? I would ask around and go by word of mouth. Be prepared also to spend a fair amount of money and time on training in the next 18months at least. The instructor should also help you on the ground with him. FWIW my parents did something similar for me, only I was younger and it was a Section C :D we also got a young but adult sharer to help us out (this was in the 80s).

Good luck!
 
Have you had his saddle checked? If he has changed shape over the summer months it could be that it's pinching him somewhere and causing pain. I have ours checked every 6 months as a matter of course.

Also what is he being fed at the moment and is it different to what he's had in the last 6 months?

You can't give him an inch with this as it could be that now he's been with you a little while he's trying to establish his position at the top of the tree but you need to teach him to respect you, your wife and your daughter (& anyone else who may be handling him).

When your daughter has him in hand and he rears and bucks does he have his tack on?

Is he having the same amount of exercise now the nights are drawing in?

I've had three new horses this summer and without exception around the 3 month time every one of them became a little challenging to handle on the ground but I put it down to them trying to establish their place in the pecking order, straightened them out and all is good now.
 
Your terminology suggests you're not a total novice. My husband, wouldn't know about such phrases as "barges" or schooling "in hand" or other somewhat horsey terms such as "putting the brakes on"? You already know that the usual H & H response is to check teeth, vet, farrier - but you missed tack

I would suggest the book Perfect Manners by Kelly Marks and get a good instructor.
 
A 4 yr old welsh Sec D - boy, you're going to have some fun with him and a 14 yr old girl.

Sounds like he's having some fun with you. I love the Welshies (and Welsh cross breeds) but they do push their boundaries all the time. They need a very clear "box" of acceptable behaviour, and lines over which they may not step!

If you look back over the last 6 months, I bet you'll be able to think of times when he's pushed you, questioned your authority, and you've stepped back (literally or metaphorically)

You need to nip this in the bud NOW or you'll have problems all the way down the line.

Where are you? maybe someone on here can recommend someone who can help. I wojuld love to, but suspect you'll be miles away!
 
Ah, just realised he is four!
You are probably hitting the teenage stage with him. I'd definately get an instructor's opinion, preferably one with experience of the breed.
Also keep in mind that the natives often mature late and he may benefit from some time off over the winter to think about things and finish growing up a bit.
 
Wow, lots of replies.

I will try and answer as many points as I can.
  • His diet is chump mix, but has been fed additional sugar beet with each meal for the last couple of weeks.He has access to hay nets
  • His exercise regime is totally unchanged
  • He has been thoroughly health checked. Although I did notice his back ankles were warm. I have no idea if this is normal or not.
  • Tack is not the issue as he is actually better behaved when he is being ridden than he is when in his stable with nothing on at all !
  • There is currently no trainers that will visit the horse with my daughter 'out of hours' , i.e. when she finishes school or weekends. Although I am actively trying to locate one from further afield.
  • We are located in rural North Wales.
  • This is her second pony. Her first (now retired) she had for 2 years, but to be honest he knew what to do before my daughter did.
  • My experience is mainly mucking out and finance ! :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Hope that helps :)
 
The trouble with horses is they like to get the better of you by gradually encroaching on your space and bending the rules (section Ds probably more than anything), and the trouble with humans is we are soft on them and it is easy to let them get away with it when we think they are being cute wanting to be near you and nuzzle you etc. You just need to start reintroducing strict boundaries, as said above don't give him an inch! If he starts to overtake, barge or walk behind you when leading, stop and reposition, if he barges then push him out of your space and maintain a bubble around you that you get him out of if he comes in uninvited, eventually you will be able to shoo him back with your arms and he will start to get the picture. A good time to do this is make sure he stands back at feed time and does not shove his head into the bucket before you say so. It will take a while for him to realise you/your daughter is the boss, but you will be able to set him straight pretty quickly. Has he tried biting you at all? With the ground work/in hand acting up, its probably because he doesn't respect his handler enough, so you need to improve basic handling and work up from there, but the fact your daughter wants to do things on the ground is a good sign. She could have a go at clicker training, its fun and I have found it useful but might not recommend if the horse gets aggressive about food!
 
ok i hope i am getting 4 when i add 2 and 2 :)

his behaviour has changed since he starting getting sugar beet? if thats right then try cutting out the sugar beet, like people some horses cannot tolerate certain foods without an adverse reaction, give it a go.

apart from that keep up your search for an instrutor in the area as a 4yr old is likely to take some schooling to create a good end result.

good luck
 
Great post Mandwhy :)

No he hasn't bitten yet thankfully. Good tips re feeding time & forming a bubble.

I also had no idea that him walking a foot or two behind me was him also showing defiance.

The clicker training is interesting, but he does have an issue with food - he lived in a pack (herd? :confused: ) when he was younger and was bullied and as a result had very little food. He is now very protective over his food and is ALWAYS wanting to eat. He isn't aggressive to us, but he will buck at the wall separating him and a mare in an adjoining stable. When he has run off he only goes as far as the nearest tuft of grass :rolleyes:

My experience is with dogs , and my gut feeling was that it was him trying to push boundaries which is something I am obviously used to with dogs. The difference is I wasn't sure how to combat it in horses and certainly didnt want to make matters worse.

My daughter is as tuned in as I am about getting the basics right first before trying to perfect the riding side.

Many thanks
 
jools1234 said:
ok i hope i am getting 4 when i add 2 and 2 :)

his behaviour has changed since he starting getting sugar beet? if thats right then try cutting out the sugar beet, like people some horses cannot tolerate certain foods without an adverse reaction, give it a go.

apart from that keep up your search for an instrutor in the area as a 4yr old is likely to take some schooling to create a good end result.

good luck
Click to expand...


I did consider that to be honest. And his behaviour has got worse since the sugar beet was added to the diet, but in all honesty I am leaning towards it being an escalation of poor behaviour due to him having zero respect for us and the sugar beet being a coincidence. I accept that I may well be wrong, it's just a gut feeling (no pun intended). I will research your point with regard to sugar beet, and thanks :)
 
it would not be unusual for any young horse to be pushing the boundaries i agree wholeheartedly, the sugar beet could just be makings things worse, a bit like giving a hyperactive child smarties :)
 
I've had a few young section D's and as others have said they need firm boundaries. Any stepping towards or even away from you must be corrected by putting him back where he was. Ie if he steps towards you even sideways while grooming, push him back over. Be prepared for some strong resistance at first! But keep going
Not sure if you know about pressure and release with horses, if not google it. The most important points are not to relinquish the pressure until you get a result, and when you do get a correct reaction be mega quick to remove the pressure !
One of the things you should do several times a day is to make him back up, come forward and stop before getting to close. When he gets it right rub his forehead and tell him he is a good boy

Personally I think there should be a specialist instruction manual for welshies lol
 
We have a Sec D and the only time he is bargy and unpleasant is when he has sugar. I would drop the mix you feed as it is bound to be full of sugar, drop the sugarbeet and change to Fast Fibre, a mollasses free chop and, if you want to you can add Speedibeet, which is practically sugar free. I think you may be surprised how his behaviour changes within a few days. Our lad alters in 24 hours if he gets sugary feed, he barges and is generally unpleasant.
 
peteralfred said:
he's 4 and a Section D. He's stronger than he was 6 months ago and possibly getting mixed messages from your daughter who is quite young.Its difficult for kids to give consistent handling to horses and youngsters really need it.
Click to expand...

This. I'd hazard a guess that a 4 yr old Sec D was probably quite a risky purchase for being inexperienced owners - some of them (not all!) CAN be a handful if not taught properly, and you really have to keep on top of them as even when you get their behaviour in check they can keep testing you every nown and again! If you then let that testing moment pass and you haven't dealt with it correctly, they'll simply go on a downward slide very quickly.

I think the best and probably only option is to get a decent instructor to help you.
 
actually, with the food thing-it's much more powerful to have the feed in his box for him when he comes in. that way your daughter isn't serving his food to him. a lot less confrontational than seeing him out of your daughters space, particularly if he's been bullied wrt food before. These things must always be done safely.

simple things like skipping out while he's in the box, always tying up for grooming/rugging/skipping out plus not ducking under his neck to get round him, moving his quarters over, picking up/out his feet whenever you go in etc will all help but it must be done all of the time. They aren't quite as opportunistic as dogs but any 'slips' on the handlers part will contribute to what he sees as being acceptable. As the relationship on the ground improves, so will the ridden to an extent.

although he is pushing the boundaries, don't demonise him for it-its totally normal horse behaviour, it's not personal!

tbh although forums are great for ideas we can only go on whats been said-far better to get someone in who can get a good picture of whats going on. Strip feed back to bare minimum and keep sugar and anything 'rich' (eg alfalfa) away
 
BoxCleva said:
I did consider that to be honest. And his behaviour has got worse since the sugar beet was added to the diet, but in all honesty I am leaning towards it being an escalation of poor behaviour due to him having zero respect for us and the sugar beet being a coincidence. I accept that I may well be wrong, it's just a gut feeling (no pun intended). I will research your point with regard to sugar beet, and thanks :)
Click to expand...

The clue is in the name. SUGAR beet. Don't give him sugar!!!
Or, go back in time and buy your daughter a nice experienced allrounder, preferably over the age of 7. 4 years old is a baby, no matter how quiet they seem.
 
By "chump" mix do you mean comp mix? If that is a recent addition then see if you can change to a fibre nut, was he fed over summer?

My (very limited) experience with welshies is that they are very good doers so unless he's hunting fit you would probably get away with chaff, horse and pony nuts and speedi-beet (advantage to speedi-beet is that it takes 10 mins to soak with hot water!).

As for his behaviour make sure who ever handles him has a hat and gloves on if he is rearing, I would also be leading him in a bridle and lunge line. Make sure he is led from the shoulder and that you can move his shoulders and quarters with no resistance. **Welshies are very very intelligent so you must be 100% consistant or he will keep trying to push boundaries**

Lastly he is 4 - this is the beginning of the teenager stage and the "make me" stage - you have to be very clear that you are the boss. If more than one person is handling him, make sure you are all handling him the same way or he will get confused and will test out the handlers.
 
Even if you find an instructor, I think really you need someone on hand for smaller handling issues, as & when they occur. I think you'd be better finding a yard with experienced staff & manager on site. (which I'm guessing you don't have or they'd be your first port of call for advice). And sorry if I've missed it, but is the horses turnout the same? And does he always have access to hay? A horse stuffed with summer grass can often be too full up to misbehave, however in winter when the grass has little in it, & hay is limited, they aren't too bloated to be silly. I'd cut out the feed completely, & just feed as much hay as he wants.
 
I agree with others cut out the sugarbeet, check all the basics and get some help on the ground. I know someone who does this and shes very good shes North Wales way as am I.

Elsiecat - where are you?
 
Hi Guys,
Thanks again for all the replies. There are some really interesting points raised.

I am Nr Oswestry.

He didn't have access to hay during the day as he was turned out and the field really didn't have much in the way of grass on it. He was brought in to the stables for his evening meal and then turned out again after he had finished. We had considered feeding him in the field but with previous conflict over food with other horses we decided against it.
As of this week he is now stabled 24/7.

Since being stabled this week he has a bowl of food in the morning and evening and a hay net at the same time. As part of our livery cost the yard supply the food. This food has changed 3 times in 5 weeks.I'm assuming due to what they have in stock at the time.

I am considering sourcing our own food so we can control type / quality etc. Does anyone have any suggestion as to what food would put weight on (steadily) without any hyper side effects. Would cutting out food altogether mean that he would lose weight ?

I will cut out the sugar beet and see how we go without it.


many thanks
 
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